Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[oldies76]

I just may. But if I like them (and I probably would), all that would prove is that they can hook a guy who is 2 years outside the demo, 17 years outside the heart of the demo, with an unusual background in terms of exposure to music (my job was to listen to every record that came in for 10 years), eclectic tastes and a high tolerance for just about anything.

And that's about as useless as useless gets when trying to program a winning radio station in a competitive market.

It's online listening, I think you and them are safe. Oh btw, it's all #1's today!

 

[davideduardo]

If you could provide me with a list of tested songs recently, I may finally buy your entire side. And I don't mean examples like David's (his markets of comparable size to Phoenix, or Omaha or wherever, or makets with 17 million people), but a concrete station, city, and list. Then I can see it your way.

It is fairly standard procedure for music tests to be subject to non-disclosure, either specifically or via the employee's contract or employee manual. Nobody is going to post a music test any more than someone who works at P&G is going to post the research for a new style of Pampers.

I've participated in 2 online ones. One (which I talked in detail about on the last thread) was 30 songs each week. ALL from the regular playlist. The other, an 800 song one, (actually a 300 song Christmas online one too, not too long after) and again ALL on the regular list. So the only thing I saw them getting out of that was number of spins, not what to spin. Regardless of the effectivenss of these (as David put down last time) this is my exposure to tests.

Unless an online test is recruited to be proportional to the core audience of the station, and uses blind invitations where the respondent does not know what station the test is for, it is of very limited use.

 

[michael hagerty]

Let's say you're playing all stuff that tests well, except for one song an hour. You're going to play that one on the theory that it's someone's favorite.

What if that person isn't listening at that point? What if it's 100 people or 1000 people or 10,000 people's favorite song......but they're at work, at church, in the shower, listening to one of their other choices....

What if all you've done is play that song for people who aren't there...when you could have played a song that would have satisfied both them, had they been listening and the people who were listening, who may not be now that you've played a song they don't like?

But how do you know that they dislike that song?? What proof is there, if they never took a music test? And maybe their personal favs will not be listed on a test. There's no actual proof to determine people's personal choices. That can't be done Mr. Hagerty. Everyone has personal, growing-up favorites, whether it's from 1967 or 1977. We all do.

And not every person will be at church or in the shower or at the store. Some will hear it, maybe 25% of them. But that thoery applies to any song that's played, not just the "stiffs". It applies to "Brown Eyed Girl", it applies to "Jack and Diane", it applies to "Top of the World" and it applies to "Cherry Hill Park".

One more time:

Music testing identifies the songs that the greatest number of people have in common as favorites or songs that they at least don't object to hearing.

Sample sizes for music testing are not unlike those (adjusted for universe size) in any kind of polling and tend to be highly accurate.

If you're trying to get people between the ages of 40 and 50 and your sample size and methodology are in line, then if 33% of them tell you Top Of The World is a tune-out for them, you've just been given notice that there's a high level of probability that if you play Top Of The World, a third of your desired audience will go listen to something else.

So what do you do?

You don't play Top Of The World.

Instead you play the songs that, in the course of that test, the fewest number of people in your desired target say would cause them to tune out. By extension, you are then playing songs that have high positives and that a majority of your desired target either loves or doesn't object to.

We didn't have auditorium testing or callout research at the stations I worked at in the 70s. But there was one rule that always proved true: What you don't play can't hurt you. The average listener isn't a chart freak, isn't a record freak and isn't (especially 30 years down the road) thinking about what they don't hear. They're responding to what they do hear.

 

[michael hagerty]

Okay. Are you at liberty to say which stations or should I just go ahead and blurt out "True Oldies"?

If you blurt, I'll listen. True Oldies has been dropped from all those cities. "Too Old", OK, but they only tested their usual playlist. They didn't skew in a new direction, or add different cuts. It too, got stale. Testing there must be worth something, it has to appeal to big cities, small cities, all across the nation, so I think it would be even more crucial than your 100 person room full of people for one city.

I can understand why you think that, but no. The reason? True Oldies was never intended or expected to compete at a high level in any of its markets. Nobody was going to take on 100,000 watt FMs in a competitive market with it. The mission of True Oldies was to give owners of marginal signals, many of them AM, a turnkey radio station with hit music, pro talent and branding they could market with very little effort. Had it succeeded, True Oldies owners (now Cumulus) would have made decent money off national ad sales.

Compared to going foreign-language, barter or dark, True Oldies was a good alternative for small market stations and impaired signals in large markets.

But like Tom Kent, the costs of statistically accurate testing on a national level were prohibitive compared to the returns. That's why they went online. If they were testing 800 songs they were currently playing, they weren't looking for expansion. They were trying to reduce the playlist size and were hoping for cheap (or better) free insight into which ones wouldn't be missed.

Again, you wouldn't like it if a national show or satellite network did statistically relevant music research. You'd see a very tight, narrow playlist that eliminates any regional turn-ons and turn-offs.

It would sound a lot like KRTH under Jay Coffey, actually.

 

[oldies76]

If you're trying to get people between the ages of 40 and 50 and your sample size and methodology are in line, then if 33% of them tell you Top Of The World is a tune-out for them, you've just been given notice that there's a high level of probability that if you play Top Of The World, a third of your desired audience will go listen to something else.

So what do you do?

You don't play Top Of The World.

Well, that 33% will be much lower, since according to you, many people will be out and about and doing other tasks (such as going to church...etc..), besides listening to those songs. And the ones that did happen to actually hear it, maybe 1/3 of those listeners (a much smaller number by then) may tune out.

But for a 3 minute song, unless you've got the radio right by your ear, the chances of tune out are small. Radio listening is more background than anything else and quite possibly the song may pass, just like any other song.

Btw, how's Super Hits 106?

 

[davideduardo]

True Oldies has been dropped from all those cities. "Too Old", OK, but they only tested their usual playlist. They didn't skew in a new direction, or add different cuts. It too, got stale.

How do you know if they even tested? The fact that they got unsalable demos suggests that they didn't.

And if they did, keep in mind that stations don't just test what they are playing... they test things that were marginal the last time they tested, they test things that might be added due to trying to keep the demos salable (i.e. newer material) and they even test songs that have not been played for a while on the chance that they have improved due to some resting.

 

[michael hagerty]

If you're trying to get people between the ages of 40 and 50 and your sample size and methodology are in line, then if 33% of them tell you Top Of The World is a tune-out for them, you've just been given notice that there's a high level of probability that if you play Top Of The World, a third of your desired audience will go listen to something else.

So what do you do?

You don't play Top Of The World.

Well, that 33% will be much lower, since according to you, many people will be out and about and doing other tasks (such as going to church...etc..), besides listening to those songs. And the ones that did happen to actually hear it, maybe 1/3 of those listeners (a much smaller number by then) may tune out.

But for a 3 minute song, unless you've got the radio right by your ear, the chances of tune out are small. Radio listening is more background than anything else and quite possibly the song may pass, just like any other song.

Btw, how's Super Hits 106?

I didn't make it clear enough.

That 33% applies to the people who are listening to your station at any given time. You're striving for a balance so that in any given 15 minute period you can reliably count on the number and demographic details of the people listening to your station.

If the chance of tune out were that small, no one would have a chance to share their listening with between 6 and 9 stations in the course of a week. But that's exactly what the average listener in the target demo does.

If the chance of tune out were that small, radio stations wouldn't have to sweat the details of the music to the extent they do and spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars they do on music testing. Believe me, from the finance guys to the GMs and PDs, they'd all love to be in that situation. But it doesn't work. It might if everyone in a market all at once threw testing out the window and just played whatever Casey Kasem played on AT40 35 years ago. But probably not. That's when you'd hear people saying "radio sucks in this town". And the first station that went back to testing would be #1.

How do I know this? Because I've seen countless battles between stations over a 42-year career. The station that knows the audience it wants and how it uses the medium best and then sets about delivering on the expectation wins.

It's wonderful to think of radio as something other than a business and tie it in with the art and romance of music. But the fact of the matter is, radio is a business. And to the 40-year old with a life and choices, punching the button for the Classic Hits station and hearing a non-classic stiff is like walking into Starbucks and being served 6-hour old coffee from the greasy spoon down the street. You'll tick them off if it happens even once. If it happens a second time, they're off to Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf.

 

[michael hagerty]

True Oldies has been dropped from all those cities. "Too Old", OK, but they only tested their usual playlist. They didn't skew in a new direction, or add different cuts. It too, got stale.

How do you know if they even tested? The fact that they got unsalable demos suggests that they didn't.

And if they did, keep in mind that stations don't just test what they are playing... they test things that were marginal the last time they tested, they test things that might be added due to trying to keep the demos salable (i.e. newer material) and they even test songs that have not been played for a while on the chance that they have improved due to some resting.

Biondi was a participant in their online testing, David.

 

[oldies76]

And to the 40-year old with a life and choices, punching the button for the Classic Hits station and hearing a non-classic stiff is like walking into Starbucks and being served 6-hour old coffee from the greasy spoon down the street.

That's an exaggeration and a half...but I understand your points. Catch you another day.

 

[davideduardo]

Biondi was a participant in their online testing, David.

The prosecution rests.

 

[PirateJohnny]

...A record that was on the charts a long time "without really becoming a favorite" is a red flag in itself...indicating that not enough people cared about it at the same time for it to do well. There's no reason to expect that to have changed just because time has passed....

As I posted in another thread, I never did anything back then (for me about 1965 to 1975) that would have contributed to the chart activity of my favorite songs. I didn't buy them when they were on the charts and I didn't call the radio station to request them. And I'm sure I wasn't the only teen behaving this way. And, yes, others have mentioned other reasons for the unreliability of chart info from the 50s/60s/70s.

...We didn't have auditorium testing or callout research at the stations I worked at in the 70s. But there was one rule that always proved true: What you don't play can't hurt you. The average listener isn't a chart freak, isn't a record freak and isn't (especially 30 years down the road) thinking about what they don't hear. They're responding to what they do hear.

Well, here in Nashville, when Hippie came on the air I was happy finally hearing on the radio songs that the other station I listened to (classic rock) didn't play. But I went for almost two weeks not listening to Hippie because I was not hearing many of my Top 40 favorites. And, no, the classic rock station wasn't playing them, either, so I wasn't listening to them either. I was checking out the CHRs.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Nobody was going to take on 100,000 watt FMs in a competitive market with it. The mission of True Oldies was to give owners of marginal signals, many of them AM, a turnkey radio station with hit music, pro talent and branding they could market with very little effort. Had it succeeded, True Oldies owners (now Cumulus) would have made decent money off national ad sales.

Well, actually WLS in particular was meant to be competitve with it. It was used as a response to the dumped format on WJMK. Not a marginal signal, and not AM.

Anyway, I should probably mention I was recruited by e-mail (two consecutive years, and a Christmas 300 song one once somewhere in there). Honestly, I have no idea how they got my email. I NEVER had any contact with the TOC, and in fact, by the time I did those tests, WLS-Chicago had reduced True Oldies to overnights and weekends only for the most part. The test was quite serious, prizes were raffeled based on audience completion of the tests, and endless e-mails were sent in the weeks following as a reminder---they wanted participation. Sponsers like Home Depot and others were tied to it. It wasn't a loyalty based throw away. Anyway, the 800 + songs (maybe I still have the e-mail, to be more exact) WAS THE PLAYLIST!!!

Michael, your suggestion of making the playlist smaller makes sense to me, however I'd say in the months following the first test at least the TOC evolved a little oddly. I'm not sure if you were ever an avid listener somewhere, but new features were added such as "Cheesy Easy Listening Song of the Day", an altered "Top 5 Countdown", and newer weekend themes. Essentially, the playlist grew under Shannon's control (only in his features). Only a pick or two by him in these features would make it without being tested, but to say that the 800 song test, was to shrink the overall playlist...I'm not sure. I'd avidly read the programming logs on the websites, and (obviously I can't keep tabs on everything they play) but by and large all that could maybe have been changed was the frequency of the songs played rather than what songs.

I still think A LOT of overlooked hits, or even other ones (one's that gained popularity later) are not tested, and therefore not played, but only under principle that those songs "don't matter" or are a "lost cause", or since they were never played regularly before.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Just did some digging, I do have the emails, I can post them later, but it explains the process, the number of songs, and I was able to track the emails back to the media company in charge of the tests. Apparently, they do lots of testing.

The # of songs, and the songs that got tested, provides no room to efficiently evolve the stations or add different content. All the stations I listed earlier associated with the format have since left. This is why I don't like testing.

 

[davideduardo]

Anyway, I should probably mention I was recruited by e-mail (two consecutive years, and a Christmas 300 song one once somewhere in there). Honestly, I have no idea how they got my email. I NEVER had any contact with the TOC, and in fact, by the time I did those tests, WLS-Chicago had reduced True Oldies to overnights and weekends only for the most part. The test was quite serious, prizes were raffeled based on audience completion of the tests, and endless e-mails were sent in the weeks following as a reminder---they wanted participation. Sponsers like Home Depot and others were tied to it. It wasn't a loyalty based throw away. Anyway, the 800 + songs (maybe I still have the e-mail, to be more exact) WAS THE PLAYLIST!!!

It would be interesting to know the name of the company that solicited your participation.

And the reason it would be interesting is that the methodology you describe has numerous defects, ranging from the relatively trivial of being sponsored to the significant of not containing unplayed songs.

Web based testing requires a first step of being invited and a second step of being screened to be sure you are in the target and have the proper radio usage. Did they do that as two separate steps before opening the gate for you?

 

[michael hagerty]

Nobody was going to take on 100,000 watt FMs in a competitive market with it. The mission of True Oldies was to give owners of marginal signals, many of them AM, a turnkey radio station with hit music, pro talent and branding they could market with very little effort. Had it succeeded, True Oldies owners (now Cumulus) would have made decent money off national ad sales.

Well, actually WLS in particular was meant to be competitve with it. It was used as a response to the dumped format on WJMK. Not a marginal signal, and not on AM.

Citadel was using WLS as bait. Showing potential subscribers they were willing to put it on one of their best signals in a major market. But it was clearly bait and clearly a placeholder for WLS. The format simply isn't designed to do battle in a competitive metro and win. I'm trying to think of a 24/7 syndicated music format that is or ever has been. Even if you surprise everyone at first, a well-researched, focused local competitor can beat it. Because it's delivering to the expectations of that market alone.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Anyway, I should probably mention I was recruited by e-mail (two consecutive years, and a Christmas 300 song one once somewhere in there). Honestly, I have no idea how they got my email. I NEVER had any contact with the TOC, and in fact, by the time I did those tests, WLS-Chicago had reduced True Oldies to overnights and weekends only for the most part. The test was quite serious, prizes were raffeled based on audience completion of the tests, and endless e-mails were sent in the weeks following as a reminder---they wanted participation. Sponsers like Home Depot and others were tied to it. It wasn't a loyalty based throw away. Anyway, the 800 + songs (maybe I still have the e-mail, to be more exact) WAS THE PLAYLIST!!!

It would be interesting to know the name of the company that solicited your participation.

And the reason it would be interesting is that the methodology you describe has numerous defects, ranging from the relatively trivial of being sponsored to the significant of not containing unplayed songs.

Web based testing requires a first step of being invited and a second step of being screened to be sure you are in the target and have the proper radio usage. Did they do that as two separate steps before opening the gate for you?

Am I breaking a rule by providing the company name?

Anyway, here's some more of the details direct from the email---
-Let me say this is the first test (2010) spearheaded by True Oldies. Screening, sorta, prior to the test they of course ask age, gender etc...but before I was selected, I'm kinda blanking. They perhaps had my name through some sort of contact with WLS locally. In terms of desired demo, that's tough. Oldies attract 55+, but I stated in the other thread I'm 18-34, so what they thought of that I don't know. I do know I wasn't the only avid listener in that demo though-
Here's the e-mail---
---------------------------------
Dear XXXXX,
Don't forget to participate in our Mega Music Test and complete the survey by Tuesday, September 14th at 12pm CDT. The sooner you complete the survey, the more chances you have to win some great prizes.

2 WEEKLY WINNERS...
Every Tuesday at 12pm CDT, while the survey is active, 2 winners will be randomly selected from those listeners who have completed the survey to each win a $25 Gift Card from Home Depot. Email notifications will go out periodically announcing winners while the survey is running. Complete the survey as soon as you can to increase your chances of winning.

THE MORE SONGS YOU RATE, THE MORE CHANCES YOU HAVE TO WIN!
As our way of thanking you for your participation, for every 50 songs you score, you will receive one ballot towards a random drawing for Cash and Prizes. Rate all 700 songs and we'll throw in another 11 ballots to give you a grand total of 25 ballots.

Two (2) Flip MinoHD™ 60 Minute Camcorders (Retail Value $199.99/unit)

Ten (10) CD Packages including 5 very special CDs:
-Four Tops Anthology
-Now That's What I Call Mowtown
-Buddy Holly Memorial Collection
-Marvin Gaye Gold
-Stevie Wonder Definitive Collection
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what you don't see --- a massive Home Depot logo that sponsored the whole thing.

700 songs?!?!?!?!?!?!!? FAR FROM ACCEPTABLE!!!! Remember my "Want Ad's" argument? That one was never
tested, hence never played. This is where I feel the problem is. Now you both may be extremely competent and accurate testers, but I have a feeling there's plenty of companies out there not using your logic then.

They obviously intended on using this. Corporate sponsors, an outside company to handle it. It's not a loyalty game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following year (2011), I was asked again. Same company, but this time WLS was beginning
to break ties with the TOC. Same format however, and everything, just that it wasn't spearheaded by
Scott Shannon to my knowledge.

Email #2-----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have been specially selected to share your opinion on music currently heard on 94.7 WLS. We have designed our radio station around someone like you, so your participation in our music survey will be invaluable in shaping 94.7 WLS.

We are testing 600 songs - basically our library of music.
You take the survey at your convenience on your computer. The process is very easy and you can complete it over the next few weeks. You simply listen to a few seconds of each song and give it a rating.

We only ask that you complete the survey by Monday, September 19th at 12pm CDT.

2 WEEKLY WINNERS...
Every Thursday at 12pm CDT, while the survey is active, 2 winners will be randomly selected from those listeners who have completed the survey to each win a $25 Gift Card from Home Depot. Email notifications will go out periodically announcing winners while the survey is running. Complete the survey as soon as you can to increase your chances of winning.

THE MORE SONGS YOU RATE, THE MORE CHANCES YOU HAVE TO WIN!
As our way of thanking you for your participation, for every 50 songs you score, you will receive one ballot towards a random drawing for Cash and Prizes. Rate all 600 songs and we'll throw in another 12 ballots to give you a grand total of 24 ballots.

*Three (3) 8GB iPod Nanos with Multi-Touch (retail $149.99/unit)
*Ten (10) Motown Greatest Hits CDs
*Ten (10) Buddy Holly Memorial Collection CDs
*Three (3) Rat Pack Ultimate Collector’s Edition DVDs (4 movies)
*Three (3) Engelbert Humperdinck Greatest Love Song CDs
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
600 SONGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "OUR LIBRARY OF MUSIC!!!!!!!!" This is why we're not hearing all the
hits....not because "they suck", because there is NO exposure on the station, or at testing.

Again, corporate sponsors and prizes. Actually the prizes suck, "Engelbert Humperdinck" - yeah they didn't test him!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By 2012, The PD at WLS was fired, all ties to Shannon's TOC were severed and the station took its new and most suckiest incarnation since the 80's. No test before the format shift.

So you can see where my thoughts on testing have come from. THEY'RE NOT TESTING EVERYTHING!!!
They're only getting out what they put in.....the same old, same old. And so we endure, the same old, same old!


Perhaps, David or Michael, you guys do terrific work. But I have a feeling a chunk of the radio world either refuses to, or doesn't know your methodology, and listeners notice. I'm here arguing 2 years after those tests...I am not in radio, nor have any affiliation with the station. Just a listener.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Citadel was using WLS as bait. Showing potential subscribers they were willing to put it on one of their best signals in a major market. But it was clearly bait and clearly a placeholder for WLS. The format simply isn't designed to do battle in a competitive metro and win. I'm trying to think of a 24/7 syndicated music format that is or ever has been. Even if you surprise everyone at first, a well-researched, focused local competitor can beat it. Because it's delivering to the expectations of that market alone.

I'm sorry I can't agree though. WLS hired back DJ's to fit the format, did promotions, and applied back for "herritage calls" --- it wasn't a placeholder, they were trying. Shannon's TOC, a placeholder for the time slots - then yes, but not in format. WLS did quite well at cohesively keeping the TOC format and sound during local hours. The problems came after Cumulus got a hold of it. Out went the PD, and later the music.

Other markets or past success aside, the original owners and operators intended to succeed with an "oldies-esque" format. Cumulus' intentions have shown to be different. I'm half wondering if they intend to do country or sports there --- but those comments belong elsewhere.

 

[michael hagerty]

Biondi: Just to be clear, I programmed radio in the 70s, and moved to TV in 1981. I've done radio since (along with TV), but not as a programmer. I do try to stay current in case there's an opportunity.

Just curious: How did the test work? Were there samples of the songs for you to listen to? And what were the available choices when you voted on each?

 

[davideduardo]

Perhaps, David or Michael, you guys do terrific work. But I have a feeling a chunk of the radio world either refuses to, or doesn't know your methodology, and listeners notice. I'm here arguing 2 years after those tests...I am not in radio, nor have any affiliation with the station. Just a listener.

I don't have "a methodology" other than following sound research techniques.

The WLS survey did not follow those practices.

While a station-branded unscreened survey can give listeners the feel that they are appreciated, they don't provide much usable data; the fact that you lied about your age shows the potential for disaster in such a method.

The reason so many stations do in-person "old style" music tests is that the screen is visually verified upon check-in and other aspects of media usage are verified. Further, the test results are inspected to do data cleansing of respondents who did not know most of the songs, did not score within a range, etc.

An unscreened in-home survey like you describe could conceivable be getting the opinions of the family dog... there is no verification.

Obviously, the first participation you were contacted for has the stench of Citadel on it. They tried to do things on the cheap, particularly as they courted bankruptcy. It's really possible that they thought they could get by for a while using home-brew rube goldberg research.

The survey was not "sponsored" and I suspect they put the Home Depot logo on the web pages as part of a trade deal to get the gift cards. Otherwise, they would not have used Home Depot gift cards, which, of themselves, tend to polarize participants... if you are not a HD shopper, the prize has no appeal!

Properly done, surveys like this give stations an ability to give the impression to listeners that their opinion counts.

But, the fact that they have to reveal the station identity to get the "image" attribute makes the research less valid. Knowing that you are grading a specific station introduces all kinds of bias into the process. Anonymous testing is the standard used in product development going back to when P&G pioneered in home testing back in the 30's.

Such tests can be used to spot some trends, such as a core artist showing signs of burning out... and they may give some hints about what to do on the next "real" test. But as a core programming took, not acceptable.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

the fact that you lied about your age shows the potential for disaster in such a method.

WHAT!!!!! Well, get your "facts" straight because no where did I say I lied about my age. Not here, not on the other thread. The info I gave them was 100% accurate. The info I posted here was 100% accurate.

Properly done, surveys like this give stations an ability to give the impression to listeners that their opinion counts.

Here again you go with loyalty points. THEY WERE USING THIS AS A LEGITIMATE TEST!!! I said I even found the company that provides this lovely "service".

Such tests can be used to spot some trends, such as a core artist showing signs of burning out... and they may give some hints about what to do on the next "real" test. But as a core programming took, not acceptable.

Again, you're assuming their doing "real" tests!!!! The whole point of my rant is that THEY WEREN'T THEN, THEY AREN'T NOW!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps you're the only real "tester" out there, but stations ARE using THIS as valid ---- THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!