Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[Biondi4Mayor]

Biondi: Just to be clear, I programmed radio in the 70s, and moved to TV in 1981. I've done radio since (along with TV), but not as a programmer. I do try to stay current in case there's an opportunity.

Just curious: How did the test work? Were there samples of the songs for you to listen to? And what were the available choices when you voted on each?

Yeah, I wasn't sure on your line of work, but you seemed knowlegable of the process.

The test (remember it was at least a year ago for the last one) had about 5-8 second clips of songs. You were asked to "slide" a bar indicating a number of things.
-Do you recognize the song
-Your opinion - (Love it, like it, indifferent, dislike, hate) -something to this effect
-How often you want to hear it (More, same, less) - however I believe there were 5 total options, with more intermediate settings.

It worked EXACTLY as detailed in other examples, save for the fact that it was online.

 

[davideduardo]

WHAT!!!!! Well, get your "facts" straight because no where did I say I lied about my age. Not here, not on the other thread. The info I gave them was 100% accurate. The info I posted here was 100% accurate.

You seem to have indicated, with enjoyment, that you said you were 35... perhaps I jumped to a conclusion that someone with "Biondi" in their name would likely be in their 60's. If that's not so, I misread your post.

But my point stands that anyone can tell them anything they want... there is no verification.

Here again you go with loyalty points. THEY WERE USING THIS AS A LEGITIMATE TEST!!! I said I even found the company that provides this lovely "service".

"Rate the Music" could be one source. What you describe sounds like their methodology. It's a trade deal for airtime.

And the data generated by a self-screened test is no generally used for final programming decisions... except for desperate, cost saving companies... Citadel being qualified in that regard.

Again, you're assuming their doing "real" tests!!!! The whole point of my rant is that THEY WEREN'T THEN, THEY AREN'T NOW!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps you're the only real "tester" out there, but stations ARE using THIS as valid ---- THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said that Citadel, 3 years ago, was doing anything right. That's why they put a 55+ stale oldies format on the air in Chicago and could not get it to bill particularly well. A big blunder is usually made up of lots of little mistakes and errors.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

You seem to have indicated, with enjoyment, that you said you were 35... perhaps I jumped to a conclusion that someone with "Biondi" in their name would likely be in their 60's. If that's not so, I misread your post.

"With enjoyment" - whatever the heck that means. I stated my demo because people like you can't get it through your head that the format has other fans beyond the retired group. And for the third time, I'll tell you it's 18-34!!!! If you know anything about Biondi, then this wouldn't surprise you one bit.

"Rate the Music" could be one source. What you describe sounds like their methodology. It's a trade deal for airtime.

Wrong. It's not Rate Your Music. And a trade for what? You pay them, they run the test. Done. They're not looking to advertise, who would buy their service targeted only to radio stations.

I never said that Citadel, 3 years ago, was doing anything right. That's why they put a 55+ stale oldies format on the air in Chicago and could not get it to bill particularly well. A big blunder is usually made up of lots of little mistakes and errors.

Stale because (and get ready cause here's the common theme) the SONGS ARE STALE!!! REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT! NO NEW ADDS, CAUSE THEY'RE NOT TESTING ANYTHING DIFFERENT!

 

[oldies76]

Stale because (and get ready cause here's the common theme) the SONGS ARE STALE!!! REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT! NO NEW ADDS, CAUSE THEY'RE NOT TESTING ANYTHING DIFFERENT!

Most major market classic hit stations are the same, just stagnant. Stagnant to the listeners, but smiles and high fives for everyone else involved. Oh well.......

 

[davideduardo]

I stated my demo because people like you can't get it through your head that the format has other fans beyond the retired group.

As I said, if I misinterpreted your statement about age, I apologize.

However, the ratings data indicates that there are scant few listeners to a classic hits station in younger demos, and that among longer TSL listeners, there are even fewer.

The reason stations don't research outside the ultra-core is that there is no significant potential for gain, and loads of potential for losing focus on those who give a station most of its audience.

Across formats and demos, half of a station's total listeners give a station about 90% of its time spent listening. Since ad rates are derived from TSL much more than cume, stations must take care of the half that gives them nearly the entirety of the revenue.

And for the third time, I'll tell you it's 18-34!!!! If you know anything about Biondi, then this wouldn't surprise you one bit.

I grew up listening to Biondi in the early 60's. I went from Omena, MI, to Chicago at one point and camped out at the door to WLS to get his autograph. I can still sing "on top of a pizza" quite well. But I am way out of the sales demo.

Wrong. It's not Rate Your Music. And a trade for what? You pay them, they run the test. Done. They're not looking to advertise, who would buy their service targeted only to radio stations.

Many services, features, programs and such are traded or "bartered" whereby the station pays no cash, but gives a set number of spots per week to the provider. The provider has a spot bank all over the country, and resells the spots to national accounts based on attractive bulk rates.

Many stations get things like music monitors, research and program services, etc., via barter. But what you get for a no-cash deal is not always what you most need. I'm reminded of that by an experience I had as a manager decades ago... somebody asked why I had an ugly car in an ugly color; I replied that "it's a trade."

Stale because (and get ready cause here's the common theme) the SONGS ARE STALE!!! REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT! NO NEW ADDS, CAUSE THEY'RE NOT TESTING ANYTHING DIFFERENT!

A classic hits station is likely to change less than 50 songs a year... some will finally sink below acceptance as the partisans in-demo decline due to aging... and some will be added as newer songs become acceptable to the always-refreshing demo.

But since each year you only lose one year's crop of listeners due to aging and you only gain one year's worth due to "aging into the demo" the changes are very very slow.

Once a station is somewhat established in the classic hits format, they are not going to "find" songs that suddenly appeal to the core other than due to aging in and aging out. With rare exceptions, dead songs do not follow the current Vampire fascination and return to life. Once listeners "stake" them, they are generally gone for good.

 

[michael hagerty]

Biondi: Just to be clear, I programmed radio in the 70s, and moved to TV in 1981. I've done radio since (along with TV), but not as a programmer. I do try to stay current in case there's an opportunity.

Just curious: How did the test work? Were there samples of the songs for you to listen to? And what were the available choices when you voted on each?

Yeah, I wasn't sure on your line of work, but you seemed knowlegable of the process.

The test (remember it was at least a year ago for the last one) had about 5-8 second clips of songs. You were asked to "slide" a bar indicating a number of things.
-Do you recognize the song
-Your opinion - (Love it, like it, indifferent, dislike, hate) -something to this effect
-How often you want to hear it (More, same, less) - however I believe there were 5 total options, with more intermediate settings.

It worked EXACTLY as detailed in other examples, save for the fact that it was online.

Could you tell if there was a function that required you to listen to the sample before you voted, or could you simply use the slide bars based on recognition of the song title and artist in print?

 

[michael hagerty]

Stale because (and get ready cause here's the common theme) the SONGS ARE STALE!!! REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT! NO NEW ADDS, CAUSE THEY'RE NOT TESTING ANYTHING DIFFERENT!

Most major market classic hit stations are the same, just stagnant. Stagnant to the listeners, but smiles and high fives for everyone else involved. Oh well.......

And again, where are all the 70s and 80s songs that are squeezing out the 60s songs coming from if everything's staying the same?

 

[oldies76]

And again, where are all the 70s and 80s songs that are squeezing out the 60s songs coming from if everything's staying the same?

Stagnant meaning the same 70's and 80's music with very few adds otherwise. We don't need to hear the same good Men At Work songs every week "Down Under" & "Who Can It Be Now", when other good ones exist too, such as, "It's a Mistake", "Overkill" and "Be Good Johnny" That's stagnation.

But we've been over this argument from here to the moon and we're getting nowhere.

 

[michael hagerty]

And again, where are all the 70s and 80s songs that are squeezing out the 60s songs coming from if everything's staying the same?

Stagnant meaning the same 70's and 80's music with very few adds otherwise. We don't need to hear the same good Men At Work songs every week "Down Under" & "Who Can It Be Now", when other good ones exist too, such as, "It's a Mistake", "Overkill" and "Be Good Johnny" That's stagnation.

But we've been over this argument from here to the moon and we're getting nowhere.

So, in the case of KRTH, it's been like 500 songs in the past 5 years. Which, for a format that usually changes 50 songs a year, max, is fairly remarkable.

As for Men At Work, "Overkill" made #3 and "It's a Mistake" #6. My bet is they've tested them and found they're not as strong with the desired target as "Down Under" and "Who Can It Be Now". "Be Good Johnny" did well on AOR, but missed the Hot 100 entirely.

Here's something to consider: When dealing with a library of this size (let's use KRTH's 800+ titles), the number of tracks from an artist is also something that has to be carefully managed.

Given the listening patterns of the core audience (20 or so minutes a day, tops...which is probably between 4 and 7 songs, depending on whether they hit a spot cluster during their time spent listening or not), they're only hearing the power titles every three weeks or so.

Pack too many titles by a secondary or tertiary artist (no disrespect to Men At Work, but I think we can all agree they aren't quite The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Madonna or Elton John) into the library, and the perception of some listeners may be that they aren't hearing their favorite song by that artist enough.

 

[radioman148]

And again, where are all the 70s and 80s songs that are squeezing out the 60s songs coming from if everything's staying the same?

Stagnant meaning the same 70's and 80's music with very few adds otherwise. We don't need to hear the same good Men At Work songs every week "Down Under" & "Who Can It Be Now", when other good ones exist too, such as, "It's a Mistake", "Overkill" and "Be Good Johnny" That's stagnation.

But we've been over this argument from here to the moon and we're getting nowhere.

Here's a request for WLS-FM if they're reading: please try playing a little less John Cougar Mellancamp. Do we really need to hear his same songs over & over & over again every single day?

 

[michael hagerty]

THEY'RE NOT TESTING EVERYTHING!!!

Define "everything". Are we talking everything to ever hit the Hot 100, the Top 40, the Top 10?

 

[michael hagerty]

I can't believe I'm doing this, and I don't know quite how long it will take, but I'm logging what KRTH played Monday through Friday of the past week.

I've only completed Monday so far, but an interesting tidbit: In that one day, KRTH played music from 163 different acts.

13 different songs by The Beatles were played, including three LP cuts, a B side that peaked at #95 in Billboard, and a B side that made #14.

There were 7 different songs by the Supremes, 6 each by Stevie Wonder and Fleetwood Mac and 5 by Elton John.

 

[oldies76]

I can't believe I'm doing this, and I don't know quite how long it will take, but I'm logging what KRTH played Monday through Friday of the past week.

I've only completed Monday so far, but an interesting tidbit: In that one day, KRTH played music from 163 different acts.

And you'll probaly notice that each day is somewhat similiar, with a lot of those well-tested songs repeated daily.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

However, the ratings data indicates that there are scant few listeners to a classic hits station in younger demos, and that among longer TSL listeners, there are even fewer.

The reason stations don't research outside the ultra-core is that there is no significant potential for gain, and loads of potential for losing focus on those who give a station most of its audience.

Across formats and demos, half of a station's total listeners give a station about 90% of its time spent listening. Since ad rates are derived from TSL much more than cume, stations must take care of the half that gives them nearly the entirety of the revenue.

Oh yeah ratings are real reliable. Share that statistic again with us that you posted on the other thread. The 15 or whatever meters that can define LA's #1 station - yeah that'll be sufficient for the demos. :

Many services, features, programs and such are traded or "bartered" whereby the station pays no cash, but gives a set number of spots per week to the provider. The provider has a spot bank all over the country, and resells the spots to national accounts based on attractive bulk rates.

Many stations get things like music monitors, research and program services, etc., via barter. But what you get for a no-cash deal is not always what you most need. I'm reminded of that by an experience I had as a manager decades ago... somebody asked why I had an ugly car in an ugly color; I replied that "it's a trade."

Maybe some services do that, but again the one I'm talking about (and their clients go beyond WLS) is strictly pay. I could prove that to you, but you'd probably not believe me anyway.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Just curious: How did the test work? Were there samples of the songs for you to listen to? And what were the available choices when you voted on each?

Yeah, I wasn't sure on your line of work, but you seemed knowlegable of the process.

The test (remember it was at least a year ago for the last one) had about 5-8 second clips of songs. You were asked to "slide" a bar indicating a number of things.
-Do you recognize the song
-Your opinion - (Love it, like it, indifferent, dislike, hate) -something to this effect
-How often you want to hear it (More, same, less) - however I believe there were 5 total options, with more intermediate settings.

It worked EXACTLY as detailed in other examples, save for the fact that it was online.

Could you tell if there was a function that required you to listen to the sample before you voted, or could you simply use the slide bars based on recognition of the song title and artist in print?

5-8 second audio clips, you could replay as much as necessary.

Define "everything". Are we talking everything to ever hit the Hot 100, the Top 40, the Top 10?

Most definately nothing beyond the Top 40, what is Top 40 is the Top 40 ones we still hear, and still not every #1 song. Now you may disagree with the charts (another story entirely) but if it was my job to put a cohesive station together that was representative of the times, I'd sure as heck begin with the most popular of all --- and those aren't getting tested!

Remember, I'm not looking for the 24/7 Johnny Mathis oldies network, I believe the 60's, 70's, and 80's CAN be played in terrific harmony satisfying numerous ranges of people. None of the done to death ones need to go either, but more needs to be either rotated in and out occasionaly, or played in between - and again - not obscure ones - but legitimate, ignored hits.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

And again, where are all the 70s and 80s songs that are squeezing out the 60s songs coming from if everything's staying the same?

Stagnant meaning the same 70's and 80's music with very few adds otherwise. We don't need to hear the same good Men At Work songs every week "Down Under" & "Who Can It Be Now", when other good ones exist too, such as, "It's a Mistake", "Overkill" and "Be Good Johnny" That's stagnation.

But we've been over this argument from here to the moon and we're getting nowhere.

Here's a request for WLS-FM if they're reading: please try playing a little less John Cougar Mellancamp. Do we really need to hear his same songs over & over & over again every single day?

;D ;D ;D ;D MADE MY DAY !!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
So true!

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Wonderful article right here, illustrating some things discussed around here. Even a quote from one of RadioInfo's own.

http://www.620wtmj.com/blogs/genemueller/188482081.html

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

I can't believe I'm doing this, and I don't know quite how long it will take, but I'm logging what KRTH played Monday through Friday of the past week.

I've only completed Monday so far, but an interesting tidbit: In that one day, KRTH played music from 163 different acts.

13 different songs by The Beatles were played, including three LP cuts, a B side that peaked at #95 in Billboard, and a B side that made #14.

There were 7 different songs by the Supremes, 6 each by Stevie Wonder and Fleetwood Mac and 5 by Elton John.

The Beatles are a different animal. No one's afraid to be creative with them. As great as groups like The Beatles or The Supremes were, that's too much of them in one day. Say for instance someone didn't love the Beatles (I myself get sick of them sometimes), you've just given me 13 chances to tune out. And for the non-Supreme lover, 7 daily chances to run away. Other than The Beatles, I bet I could virtually name the songs you heard by the others perfectly - there was probably "Baby Love", "Rhiannon", and "Crocodile Rock" in there -----SAME SAME SAME - here, there, and everywhere on all stations.

Too many repeats. They may do well as a station, but we'll never know how a competing station in the same market, with the same signal, with more variety would do because "our ideas are wrong". :

----------------------------------------
EDIT- Just checked Monday as well, yep all those I listed were certainly among the bunch. Plenty of songs got repeated twice in one day as well (and I know playlists like that have glitches that repeat back to back songs, but I talking repeats separated by a few hours).

 

[michael hagerty]

I can't believe I'm doing this, and I don't know quite how long it will take, but I'm logging what KRTH played Monday through Friday of the past week.

I've only completed Monday so far, but an interesting tidbit: In that one day, KRTH played music from 163 different acts.

And you'll probaly notice that each day is somewhat similiar, with a lot of those well-tested songs repeated daily.

Mathematically, repetition has to happen. if you're playing 240 songs a day (averaging 10 songs an hour over 24 hours), that has to occur. Won't know just how much until it's done, Oldies.

Again, given the typical desired target listener's listening pattern and rotations, they're not hearing the same song more than once every three weeks.

I got tired of reading "KRTH never plays (title)" then finding out they do. A week's worth of weekdays should give us a rough overview.

 

[semoochie]

A visit to Yes.com should provide the same information without having to actually listen.