Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[oldies76]

The 1955-1980 music? That's oldies too. But the majority of it has simply aged out of usefulness for airplay.

???

 

[landtuna]

We're way far apart on this one.

To me, "oldies era" is an artificial construct that has outlived its usefulness. It's damming up the river and creating stagnation. It's like saying "history" stops at a certain fixed point and everything from there till now gets lumped into an ever-growing category of "current events" (or maybe "recurrent events" for the format clock freaks).

How can you say that? We apply labels to all manner of historical events and times. Although the word "colonial" could be a modern term, ask any American what it means they will undoubtedly explain it defines a period of time when the USA was still a colony of Great Britain. With respect to music Oldies works the same way. To insist that the word oldies defines a record released only 7 years ago would not make sense to the vast majority of people young or old.

Frankly, it's part of what damn near killed Oldies as a format.

Oldies hasn't died....yet. There are plenty of stations still playing the genre and probably will for many years to come. KODS in Reno is a perfect example of a vibrant Oldies station. Local to be sure but Oldies none the less.

Even on shows like American Idol they recognize Oldies as a major era and influence by requiring their contestants to sing some of those songs (which are usually done very poorly but that is another discussion). Oldies might not be the economic power that it once was but neither is Classical or Easy Listening yet all three are still viable.

"Oldie" as applied to music is a term that has been in use for 139 years. To now say that only music from 1955-1980 should have that term applied to it is hijacking the language, dooming the word to extinction as the music fades from mass exposure and those of us who were its fans at the time die.

English is a difficult language to master because of context. We use one word several ways. Oldie, as applied to the music label, is one of those while oldie, the general definition is quite another. There is no hijacking or dooming the word to extinction. Long after Oldies are no longer played on the radio there will be oldies applied to a variety of other things.

Except...it ain't gonna happen that way. The average listener (especially those under 50) cares very little about the concept of an "oldies era". They simply refer to records in terms of their experience. If you were born in 1968, don't give a damn about Elvis, The Beach Boys or The Beatles, but dug "She Bop" when you were 15, that's an oldie to you. And if you call it that, I have zero right to say you're using the wrong word to describe your experience because the cutoff was three years earlier.

I know several people who were born in the 70's, one after Elvis died, but are huge Elvis fans. My middle son (34) is a huge fan of The Beach Boys - he was born in '79, long after their major music was popular. He wasn't alive when they were the kings of surf nor did he live anywhere near a beach - he just loves the music.

It's time to get back in sync with how real people...adults who happen to have been born outside the scope of our teen and adult years, think, speak, experience and use the medium.

You and I will never apparently agree on the use of the Oldie genre but if you were to poll my peers I am willing to bet they would give you the same explanation I have. For radio to use the Oldie genre as a sliding calendar of music is confusing and erroneous. Perhaps that is why stations playing more modern music don't use the Oldies label but rather describe themselves with a meaningless title such as Kiss or Dance or Party etc. I'm a simple person and just call it crap. ;D

Now, Happy Easter (if that applies to you) and don't forget where you hid the eggs. :

 

[landtuna]

To a listener, an oldie is simply a big song from the past. Since each person's frame of reference for "past" is different, the term means different things to different people.

Absolutely disagree. Although you might find some individuals that consider anything published several years ago to be an Oldie they would not be members of my generation or music listeners in general.

Jazz is still being produced today yet the term "jazz age" refers to a specific period of time when jazz became the music of choice in America's dance and night clubs. If you called any recent jazz part of the "jazz age" you would be incorrect and misunderstood.

 

[Thomps2525]

I call Kenny G part of the "snake charmer" age.

 

[michael hagerty]

We're way far apart on this one.

To me, "oldies era" is an artificial construct that has outlived its usefulness. It's damming up the river and creating stagnation. It's like saying "history" stops at a certain fixed point and everything from there till now gets lumped into an ever-growing category of "current events" (or maybe "recurrent events" for the format clock freaks).

How can you say that? We apply labels to all manner of historical events and times. Although the word "colonial" could be a modern term, ask any American what it means they will undoubtedly explain it defines a period of time when the USA was still a colony of Great Britain. With respect to music Oldies works the same way. To insist that the word oldies defines a record released only 7 years ago would not make sense to the vast majority of people young or old.

You're mixing the two. "History" defines colonial times as much as it defines the raid that killed Bin Laden. "Oldies" defines old music. We should then specify, if we need to, what era of oldies (Big Band, Pre-Rock, Pre-Beatles, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc.), in the same way we break the larger body of history into eras (Colonial, Revolutionary, Civil War, Industrial Age, etc).

For radio to use the Oldie genre as a sliding calendar of music is confusing and erroneous.

Confusing? Perhaps to someone with a fixed view of what an "oldie" is. I think we're approaching the point where the bulk of people in the desirable demo won't have that fixed point of reference (because it simply wasn't relevant to them) and I believe that the group of people without that fixed view will grow as younger generations age in.

Erroneous? No. The only reason we haven't viewed oldies as a sliding calendar all along was that programmers couldn't (or didn't know how to) move the format forward in the late 80s and early 90s, encountering huge resistance from a block of Baby Boomers who didn't want to hear 70s or later music. And by definition, the boom made them a larger group by number and percentage, outnumbering the next batch of young adults who were okay with the music. It was only after a significant percentage of boomers aged out of demographic desirability that the scales tipped and newer music was going to help stations more than hurt.

Now, Happy Easter (if that applies to you) and don't forget where you hid the eggs. :

Thanks, Landtuna. To you, too!

 

[michael hagerty]

To a listener, an oldie is simply a big song from the past. Since each person's frame of reference for "past" is different, the term means different things to different people.

Absolutely disagree. Although you might find some individuals that consider anything published several years ago to be an Oldie they would not be members of my generation or music listeners in general.

Jazz is still being produced today yet the term "jazz age" refers to a specific period of time when jazz became the music of choice in America's dance and night clubs. If you called any recent jazz part of the "jazz age" you would be incorrect and misunderstood.

Yes, because there was a "jazz age". It was called that. And Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc were part of "The Birth of Rock and Roll". The Beatles and Stones were part of "The British Invasion".

There is no "oldies era" other than one that you argue should exist. Saying "oldies" should only be applied to music from 1955-1980 is like taking the term "jazz" and saying it should only apply to music from the jazz age.

 

[landtuna]

Yes, because there was a "jazz age". It was called that.

Noooooo. It was called that because F. Scott Fitzgerald used the term in his novel "The Great Gatsby". Someone coined the term and it stuck. The first time I heard the term Oldie was on an album cover which featured Little Caesar singing "Those Oldies But Goodies". That was in 1963 and the music he was singing about was less than 10 years old. So, we have a beginning date for Oldies of approximately the mid-50's. The end date can be argued but I personally think it ends in the first years of the 80's when Rock became noise and hair bands and grunge became popular.

And Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc were part of "The Birth of Rock and Roll". The Beatles and Stones were part of "The British Invasion".

Technically, Elvis was Be-bop and Holly was Rockabilly (at least initially). The Beatles and Stones were bands which comprised part of the British Invasion but the B.I. didn't define a sub-genre of the music but rather the bands which became popular as a result.

There is no "oldies era" other than one that you argue should exist. Saying "oldies" should only be applied to music from 1955-1980 is like taking the term "jazz" and saying it should only apply to music from the jazz age.

The Oldies era was defined by radio itself to initially identify music from a specific period in time. They could have called it "The 1st Generation of Rock & Roll" or "The 2nd Generation of Rock & Roll" or a combination thereof but it would have been a tongue twister so it just became known as Oldies.

Then, as David suggests, the term fell out of favor by agencies who thought the term was negative and would affect sales so it was changed to Classic Hits which moved the playlist calendar forward into the 70's. Then the 80's. But Oldies doesn't have anything to do with radio sales any longer. It simply defines a period in time for a collection of music which most people agree was the most creative period in popular music.

Likewise, no one I know would interchange "jazz age" for "jazz" because one defines a period in time and one describes a type of music.

I think I smell something burning. It may be me. I'm going to bed. ;D

 

[michael hagerty]

Yes, because there was a "jazz age". It was called that.

Noooooo. It was called that because F. Scott Fitzgerald used the term in his novel "The Great Gatsby". Someone coined the term and it stuck. The first time I heard the term Oldie was on an album cover which featured Little Caesar singing "Those Oldies But Goodies". That was in 1963 and the music he was singing about was less than 10 years old. So, we have a beginning date for Oldies of approximately the mid-50's. The end date can be argued but I personally think it ends in the first years of the 80's when Rock became noise and hair bands and grunge became popular.

The Jazz Age is generally considered to have spanned the 20s, right up to the Great Depression. Fitzgerald wrote Gatsby in 1925, setting it in 1922. Thus the term was in use during the era itself.

The Little Caesar and The Romans record was from 1961. If they were referring to popular music from the mid-late 50s (the lyrics aren't specific, but it's reasonable to assume so), they're calling music that was at most six years old "oldies but goodies". Because, for most people, popular music is ephemeral...it moves on. A six year old song is an old song.

There is no "oldies era" other than one that you argue should exist. Saying "oldies" should only be applied to music from 1955-1980 is like taking the term "jazz" and saying it should only apply to music from the jazz age.

The Oldies era was defined by radio itself to initially identify music from a specific period in time. They could have called it "The 1st Generation of Rock & Roll" or "The 2nd Generation of Rock & Roll" or a combination thereof but it would have been a tongue twister so it just became known as Oldies.

And what I'm saying is that having radio define an era is absolutely counter-productive when time passes and generations shift. There is absolutely no reason why a word people have used for 130 years should suddenly have to be used only to refer to a narrow period of time. The songs from 1955-1980 were your oldies. For someone who was 12 in 1980 (45 now), it's wrong to say the word can't be used beyond that arbitrary point.

 

[semoochie]

In a somewhat related area, there's a quote from someone about the younger generation, that sounds very contemporary but was written in about 500 BC!

You mean:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato.
This is apparently what I was talking about. I believe that what I heard was paraphrased because this sounds a little archaic in style.

 

[landtuna]

The Jazz Age is generally considered to have spanned the 20s, right up to the Great Depression. Fitzgerald wrote Gatsby in 1925, setting it in 1922. Thus the term was in use during the era itself.

You are correct, and Oldies was in use during the Oldies era as well as the following quote points out.

The Little Caesar and The Romans record was from 1961. If they were referring to popular music from the mid-late 50s (the lyrics aren't specific, but it's reasonable to assume so), they're calling music that was at most six years old "oldies but goodies". Because, for most people, popular music is ephemeral...it moves on. A six year old song is an old song.

I didn't see the "Oldies but Goodies" album until I was in the navy in Long Beach in '63. I may have heard the song earlier but don't remember. My point was simply that the term oldies had been applied very early in what became the Oldies era - much like your example of Jazz Age.

Popular music does move on but, like "Jazz Age" there are periods in time where labels are applied to denote something exceptional hence "Oldies".

And what I'm saying is that having radio define an era is absolutely counter-productive when time passes and generations shift. There is absolutely no reason why a word people have used for 130 years should suddenly have to be used only to refer to a narrow period of time. The songs from 1955-1980 were your oldies. For someone who was 12 in 1980 (45 now), it's wrong to say the word can't be used beyond that arbitrary point.

"Radio" (or more accurately their advertising agencies) used "Oldies" to define a playlist from a certain time period. Obviously, they were influenced by both the previous use of the term and by the demo of the people to whom they were pitching. Then, when "Oldies" has come to mean a specific period in time "radio" both jettisons the term fearing it represents an aging demo then creates a different term to replace it. My point is simply that Oldies continues to represent a specific time period and playlist and should remain the definitive term. If radio and their ad agencies and polling companies want to use Classic Hits to be an all-inclusive term for any song more than 18 months old then go for it. Classic Hits is a meaningless term so no harm done.

Oldies refers to music only in that context.

Just like those people who lived through and liked the Jazz Age music I would like my generation to leave a legacy of Oldies as being the most culturally important and innovative in the history of modern music.

 

[davideduardo]

"Radio" (or more accurately their advertising agencies) used "Oldies" to define a playlist from a certain time period. Obviously, they were influenced by both the previous use of the term and by the demo of the people to whom they were pitching.

I don't know what this has to do with ad agencies.

Stations sell to ad agencies. They use terms in their sales material, emails and in verbal presentations that support the image they wish to create. }

Ad agencies, in turn, evaluate the "pitch" and the rates and the ratings and determine if stations are getting on a buy.

Very few radio stations have advertising agencies that do the listener-oriented ad campaigns stations sometimes present such as TV spots or billboards or whatever. And the ad agencies don't get involved with station sales presentations when there is one at all.

Stations with ad agencies tend to be very big stations in very big markets. Or smaller stations that buy a la carte creative services on an as-needed basis.

Then, when "Oldies" has come to mean a specific period in time "radio" both jettisons the term fearing it represents an aging demo then creates a different term to replace it.

But the term used to present a station to advertisers or their agencies is frequently different than the one used on the air. Going back several decades, "Hot Hits" may have been used on the air, while "CHR" was used to describe the station to agencies.

"Adult Hits" is used to pitch to agencies. "Jack" or "Bob" or "Sam" is used on the air with a "we play whatever we want" phrase to define the format on-air.

"Lite Rock. Less Talk" or "Lite" was often used on the air. "Adult Contemporary" is used for sales presentations.

"Classic Hits" is used to pitch to advertisers; many stations using that format name still call themselves "oldies" on the air... because listeners who will spend time with a 70's based gold station know the songs are old, and thus they are "oldies".

There's no static oldies era. It's a moving target, depending on when each listener was born and the songs they like.

 

[davideduardo]

Just like those people who lived through and liked the Jazz Age music I would like my generation to leave a legacy of Oldies as being the most culturally important and innovative in the history of modern music.

Yeah, "Sea Cruise" and "Peppermint Twist" are a hell of a legacy.

 

[michael hagerty]

"Jazz Age" and "Jet Age" or "Space Age" are comparable terms as far as usage during the time they describe.

Nobody was walking around between 1955 and 1980 saying "We live in the Oldies Era." We're only assuming because of the throwback nature of the song that we know what kind of oldie Little Caesar and the Romans are referring to. The lyrics don't make it clear. Might be Perry Como and Patti Page, but probably not.

Here's the thing, though: The guy who wrote that was reminiscing about music that seemed long-ago to him. In fact, what made "Those Oldies But Goodies Remind Me Of You" stand out in 1961 was how much music had changed in just six years. And he used a term people have used since 1874 to convey that. They were his oldies. Individuals had theirs. Generally, if it was more than a year old, it was an oldie.

If it were the music alone, the term "Jazz Age" likely wouldn't exist. In "Gatsby", Fitzgerald was using (and probably pioneering...it was 1925) a literary device that rolled elements of the culture together, found a focal point and put a label on it. He chose to make the focal point the music...the soundtrack to that particular age of excess, still in progress as he wrote it.

What you propose as an "oldies age" has no such focal point, certainly not one that fits over a 25-year span. It was Elvis to The Beach Boys in six years. The Beatles in two more. The Doors, The Dead and The Airplane in another three. James, Joni and Carly (or, if you prefer, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple and Grand Funk) in four more.

And that's only the front 15, taking us from Bandstand to Sullivan to Woodstock to Altamont...from the malt shop to the Pepsi generation to Dr. Timothy Leary's medicine cabinet.

Fitzgerald wouldn't have attempted to slap a label on that (especially using a term people use in relation to their own musical experience) and neither should we.

Radio was being honest in 1972 when it said oldies. It was going to play records that weren't new. KRTH stopped at 1963 to avoid cannibalizing KHJ. But WCBS-FM in New York, with no such relationship, went all the way up to 1971, but they didn't say "It's okay...we're still living in the Oldies Era!"...and the scale slid for a while as the years went on, until the Boomers held their breath and threatened to turn blue (or worse, the dial) if the stations dared play anything after 1974.

What happened back there wasn't a single, definable era, but a youthquake...a never-before-seen bulge in the population of teens and 20-somethings with disposable cash they chose to spend on music. Some of it brilliant, some of it not, even in the best years.

The musicians have already left the legacy. It's their work. Some of it will live on. Some will be lost and forgotten. It's not helpful to tell the generations following (and already here) that they can't call their oldies oldies because they came after an arbitrary point on the calendar where someone said it all started to sound like crap.

As a generation, we've hogged the musical and cultural stage too long. Let's step back and see what the next guys (who are, again, adults in their forties, not kids) find valuable from our time (anything left that we haven't bludgeoned them with for a quarter-century?). It should be entirely their choice.

 

[landtuna]

There's no static oldies era. It's a moving target, depending on when each listener was born and the songs they like.

oldies = what you said

Oldies = what I said

When I hear a person born in 1980 call a song released in 1995 an "Oldie" I will change my opinion. Until then, Oldies are 1955-1984ish.

 

[landtuna]

Yeah, "Sea Cruise" and "Peppermint Twist" are a hell of a legacy.

Both are in my personal library and so are approximately 4,000 others from the era. That library contains stiffs and Hot 100's and is, in total, a legacy and one that won't be topped in our lifetimes and likely that of our children's as well.

 

[landtuna]

"Jazz Age" and "Jet Age" or "Space Age" are comparable terms as far as usage during the time they describe.

I'm pretty sure the people living in the 1920's, if they referred to their era at all, used the term "Roaring 20's" and only those who were fans of Fitzgerald or dance clubs knew it as the "Jazz Age".

As for the "Jet Age" - we are still in it yet I've heard no one refer to it as that.

"Space Age" seems to be a 1950's term that applies only to electric appliances and certain flying machines (although, technically they don't "fly").

Here's the thing, though: The guy who wrote that was reminiscing about music that seemed long-ago to him. In fact, what made "Those Oldies But Goodies Remind Me Of You" stand out in 1961 was how much music had changed in just six years. And he used a term people have used since 1874 to convey that. They were his oldies. Individuals had theirs. Generally, if it was more than a year old, it was an oldie.

See my earlier response to DE. When I hear someone born in 1980 refer to a song from 1995 as an Oldie I will cease and desist. Never gonna happen. Those "kids" know what an Oldie is. So do I.

 

[davideduardo]

There's no static oldies era. It's a moving target, depending on when each listener was born and the songs they like.

oldies = what you said

Oldies = what I said

When I hear a person born in 1980 call a song released in 1995 an "Oldie" I will change my opinion. Until then, Oldies are 1955-1984ish.

... only because the term used today is "Old School". It means the same thing; to most under-30's, your "oldies" are old school too. Just not their old school.

To me, Rappers' Delight and Castles in the Sky are oldies just as much as Satisfaction and Jack and Dianne. Except that I'd rather hear the first two today...

 

[michael hagerty]

When I hear a person born in 1980 call a song released in 1995 an "Oldie" I will change my opinion. Until then, Oldies are 1955-1984ish.

People of Earth:

Despite common usage dating back to 1874 denoting simply "a song from the past", and despite most people's perception of time being such that a few years is, indeed, "old", the term "oldies" as it applies to music will only be used for songs released between 1955 and 1984 (ish).

This has been decided by a 67-year old man in Arizona who believes that music recorded after that point sounds like someone running a belt sander over a cat.

 

[landtuna]

This has been decided by a 67-year old man in Arizona who believes that music recorded after that point sounds like someone running a belt sander over a cat.

BWA HAAAA HAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

It's 68 BTW. You didn't come to my party.......

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Coming from someone far younger than all of you here, I have NEVER heard anyone refer to music other than 50's-70's as "oldies" in common language. Typically (from what I have witnessed) people refer to music that is "old" by the decade ("I like 90's music" etc.) or by the genre. This makes sense, considering the fact that musical genres and radio formats became increasingly diverse over time. When someone is listening to "Save The Best For Last" (1992), they'll call it "pop" "soul" "R&B" "90's" whatever, but not an oldie. In common vernacular, oldies most certainly refers to the original rock-and-roll era.

Radio helped define it that way. As the term was phased out, and newer music was added, the term no longer applied. Why does that bother anyone? According to the sticklers in advertising, calling anything an "oldie" based on a sliding scale would likely be a great disservice to a station, as the term is "feared".

Landtuna is 100% dead-on --- the public (thanks to radio) knows "oldies" as an era, not a sliding scale.

You're all showing your age on this one!!!!!!!!!!!