Coming soon... K-EARTH 101 streaming live in September!

[scooty430]

Face it, the time has come to dump the music of the 40's, 50s, and 60's and a good part of the 70's onto the dust heap of history! And the sooner the better!!!!!

While I'm not as enthusiastically cheering the demise of some great music, it's hard to argue with the demographic issues here.

When K-Earth debuted as an oldies station in 1972, the oldest song it played was from 1955...17 years earlier. That's the same as 1989 (nearly 1990) today. Even adult-targeting stations like KMPC rarely played anything more than 20 years old. KFI did have Chuck Cecil playing swing music in afternoon drive that year, but it was bumped to nights and then to weekends within a year...and was gone altogether in another two. And Chuck rarely played anything more than 35 years old...which is the equivalent of a 1971 record today.

Time has marched on. Movin' is oldies for women in their early-mid 30s.

---Michael Hagerty

I can't imagine a time when people aren't going to want to hear the Beatles, "I Feel Good," or the Beach Boys. That music is timeless, and will be around forever, like Beethoven's 9th Symphony. Marketed properly, a savvy person could create a station that an entire family can listen to in the car, everyone enjoying the music together. Indeed, every classroom in the country harbors at least one or two Beatles freaks, and the band continually tops the charts even today with greatest hits packages, or even a mashup album, for god's sake! And in the illegal download department, the biggest deal from a few years ago was the combo of Jay Z and the Beatles on the "Grey Album."

Heck, I wasn't even alive when the Beatles broke up, and I own all their albums.

Meanwhile, the music of the 80s and 90s? No legs. A few good tunes will last, but overall, it's inferior and will fade.

K-Earth would be gone if Jack hadn't already been taken, and will probably go, you're right. But it's a short-sighted choice.

 

[scooty430]

Michael,

I hate to disagree with a valid comparision, but you ignore the seminal change that happened to music in the 1960s.

The era of 1964 to the mid '70s was a time of very eclectic musical tastes, broadly shared acorss demographics.

More importantly, the era of music that is roughly encapsulated by KRTH and its sisters was the last time that mass audiences pretty much listened to the same types of stations, and those stations crossed genres.

After the golden era of top 40, formats and listener tastes splintered. Stations didn't play the Beatles followed by a sould record, followed by a country crossover, followed by an instrumental.

KRTH is frozen at that end of the era. As that audience ages, there is no broad-based successor music to move on to. As KRTH tries to modernize its list, it runs into the inevitable fact that it cannot play "hits of the 80s" and be as broad based.

This is actually what JACK does so well. It recognizes the fact that during the 80s, people punched up lots of music on their radio buttons, hearing stuff from KROQ, KLOS, KMET, maybe KIIS once in awhile, and back in the 70s, on top 40. Only radio programmers thought everybody wanted to listen to one tiny niche, when in fact, people still had eclectic and varied tastes.

JACK is broad-based oldies, one generation on.

 

[davideduardo]

I can't imagine a time when people aren't going to want to hear the Beatles, "I Feel Good," or the Beach Boys.

I can. Nearly everyone under 50 doesn't want to listen to that. Many over 50 have moved on.

That music is timeless, and will be around forever, like Beethoven's 9th Symphony.

Hardly. It will be a memory in a few decades, when those who listend to the songs when they were current hits die. Very few people outside that group have a passion for this music.

Marketed properly, a savvy person could create a station that an entire family can listen to in the car, everyone enjoying the music together.

You obviously don't have kids in a different generation. To think what you posted is remotely possible is ingenuous.

Indeed, every classroom in the country harbors at least one or two Beatles freaks,

OK, just for the heck of it, go to a high school, any high school, in Huntington Park and find me one person who likes the Beatles who is not a 50+ teacher.

and the band continually tops the charts even today with greatest hits packages, or even a mashup album, for god's sake! And in the illegal download department, the biggest deal from a few years ago was the combo of Jay Z and the Beatles on the "Grey Album."

Yeah, 50 year olds also know how to download and go to a record store... very few younger people under the mentioned age have any real interest in that music.

Meanwhile, the music of the 80s and 90s? No legs. A few good tunes will last, but overall, it's inferior and will fade.

In your opinion. On the other hand, I think that such music is just as good, from REO Speedwagon all the way to the late 90's.

K-Earth would be gone if Jack hadn't already been taken, and will probably go, you're right. But it's a short-sighted choice.

Radio is about paying the bills with advertising, and advertisers don't seek out 55+.

 

[briancraig]

I don't think you can honestly say that the music of the 80s and especially 90s holds up as well as the music of the 60s and 70s.

Music from that era continues to be used in movies and commercials to a far greater extent than music from other eras.

With the exception of one or two acts, baby boomer classic rock acts continue to be the biggest concert draws. In fact there was one week a few years back where the top grossing concerts of the week were almost exactly the same as in 1977.

Many young people listen to classic rock acts like Pink Floyd, Beatles, Doors etc. Rolling Stone, USA Today, and the Washington Post have all done major articles on this fact in the last couple of years.

I think KRTH sounds better today than they have in many years and I hope they are around for many years to come.

To compare the Beatles or the Beach Boys to REO Speedwagon is simply ludicrous.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't think you can honestly say that the music of the 80s and especially 90s holds up as well as the music of the 60s and 70s.

It all depends on what you personally like. Some people who grew up in the 50's and 60's moved on, and now find 60's music to be best taken in very small doses, if any.

Music from that era continues to be used in movies and commercials to a far greater extent than music from other eras.

And that is mostly because it is cheap to license and very simple to adapt to a client jingle.

With the exception of one or two acts, baby boomer classic rock acts continue to be the biggest concert draws. In fact there was one week a few years back where the top grossing concerts of the week were almost exactly the same as in 1977.

This is true. Has to do with the fact that there is very little other live entertainment for the early boomers, while those of the 70's and 80's have lots of alternatives.

Many young people listen to classic rock acts like Pink Floyd, Beatles, Doors etc.

A few. Not many. Look at the young adult and teen cume of classic rock stations. It is nearly zero.

I think KRTH sounds better today than they have in many years and I hope they are around for many years to come.

The 25-54 has not grown. If that does not change soon, the station is going to be as dead as hundreds of other oldies stations in the US:

To compare the Beatles or the Beach Boys to REO Speedwagon is simply ludicrous.

You are right. To me, compared with a lot of 80's music, I personally think the Beatles suck.

You see, music is about opinion and taste. What you like, apparently, I dislike. Please don't tell me what is good and bad based on your taste.

 

[briancraig]

David,

Everyone has the right to their own personal tastes in music. However, some performers have an impact on society or culture that can't be denied.

You might not like Elvis Presley, but you would be wrong if you said he did not influence music and popular culture to a greater degree than any other single artist.

The Beatles not only created the rock album as we know it, but rock music is usually divided between the pre and post Beatles period.

The Beatles had more influence on popular culture than any other rock group. That is a fact and has nothing to do with my personal taste.

I have no doubt that you probably know more about radio than any other poster on radio-info, but I sure hope you stay out of the music business.

It will be a sad day when KRTH changes formats. Maybe that music will find a home on a non-commercial frequency similar to jazz and classical. How about 91.5 KUSC, good times and great oldies.

 

[davideduardo]

David,

Everyone has the right to their own personal tastes in music. However, some performers have an impact on society or culture that can't be denied.

Of course that is true. But we are not talking about influences, but individual songs and artists.

We could go off and try to do a "Kevin Bacon" on how far in pop, country and even rock that Buddy Holly had. But the fact is that the original versions of 60's songs have very, very limited appeal today among any group that did not listen to those songs when they were currents.

You might not like Elvis Presley, but you would be wrong if you said he did not influence music and popular culture to a greater degree than any other single artist.

I would say it was Buddy Holly, but then we are dealing with things other than the subject... the appeal of original versions of 60's hits among people under 50. I would say, "who cares?" as to the historic influences on genres, artists and songs when it comes to radio programming. Songs are binary: you either play them or you don't.

The Beatles not only created the rock album as we know it, but rock music is usually divided between the pre and post Beatles period.

I find that subject to debate, but, again, I also find it irrelevant. The issue is the appeal of songs among under-50 listeners when those songs pre-date those listeners birth or, at least, their adolesence.

The Beatles had more influence on popular culture than any other rock group. That is a fact and has nothing to do with my personal taste.

And it has nothing to do with whether a 35 year old wants to hear "I Want to Hold your Hand" on the radio.

I have no doubt that you probably know more about radio than any other poster on radio-info, but I sure hope you stay out of the music business.

I have all intent to stay out of the music business... radio's "business" is selling advertising and the music business sells records. We have only limited commonalities.

 

[RadioStarOne]

Hey David, ever heard the one about opinions? Everybody has one and they all stink! In a hundred years when nobody even remembers your name or my name The Beatles music will still be remembered as some of the best music ever created! The same as with the music of Presley and Sinatra! This music is timeless and if its still on the radio is not an issue! Now go crawl back under the rock you came out from under! Dang, how you love to stir the pot! You must really get some kind of kinky pleasure from all your negative opinions!

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Hey David, ever heard the one about opinions? Everybody has one and they all stink! In a hundred years when nobody even remembers your name or my name The Beatles music will still be remembered as some of the best music ever created! The same as with the music of Presley and Sinatra! This music is timeless and if its still on the radio is not an issue! Now go crawl back under the rock you came out from under! Dang, how you love to stir the pot! You must really get some kind of kinky pleasure from all your negative opinions!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thanks RadioStarOne you made my day!!

Who really cares so much about David's opinion on music besides David himself???
He doesn't "get it" and that's OK. He'll say he gets it and that's OK too.

Most of us do appreciate what Sinatra, Presley, the Beatles, the Stones, Bruce, Nirvana, et al have done for popular music culture, same as Mozart and Beethoven did for Classical music.

As for me, I like many types of music, most of which is not found on the radio airwaves. Right now, I'm tuned in to the Legato Cafe (AAA), I also listen to Radio Paradise, WOXY, standards stations such as 'Martini In The Morning' and a host of some really good oldies stations all free of charge on the Internet. I have a device which plays on a radio in my office so I'm not chained to the computer. I record streams and transfer that to a CD for in-car listening which will have to do until Internet radio becomes portable.
Yes I do sample Star 98.7, KRTH, KOLA, and Indie at times when I don't have a CD on and am not listening to Handel in the Morning. No Satellite for me and HD will not have a big impact either. I'm a happy camper!!

np: Easy Tonight-Five for Fighting (on the Legato Cafe)

 

[davideduardo]

Hey David, ever heard the one about opinions? Everybody has one and they all stink! In a hundred years when nobody even remembers your name or my name The Beatles music will still be remembered as some of the best music ever created! The same as with the music of Presley and Sinatra! This music is timeless and if its still on the radio is not an issue! Now go crawl back under the rock you came out from under! Dang, how you love to stir the pot! You must really get some kind of kinky pleasure from all your negative opinions!

Really?

All I can say, again, is that the issue for radio (which is what this is all about) is whether listeners to any particular station want to hear this music today. Of course, the simple way to resolve this issue is to test the music with the audience or potential audience.

The historical significance of an artist is irrelevant.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

All I can say, again, is that the issue for radio (which is what this is all about) is whether listeners to any particular station want to hear this music today. Of course, the simple way to resolve this issue is to test the music with the audience or potential audience.

The historical significance of an artist is irrelevant.

How incredibly shortsighted that is.

 

[davideduardo]

All I can say, again, is that the issue for radio (which is what this is all about) is whether listeners to any particular station want to hear this music today. Of course, the simple way to resolve this issue is to test the music with the audience or potential audience.

The historical significance of an artist is irrelevant.

How incredibly shortsighted that is.

No, it is entirely pragmatic. Listeners are concerned with what is coming out of the speakers, not whether the Beatles will be remembered fondly in the 22nd Century.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

KRTH does sound MUCH better since ex-KOST PD Jhani Kaye took over and enlarged the library, while cutting down on the repetition which former PD Mike Phillips used to the point of overkill.

The out-of-the-box success of the JACK-FM format, certainly in LA, proves convincingly that a LARGE library (1,200+ songs) CAN results in solid ratings and enormous 25-54 numbers if executed properly.

Since Top 40 radio (aka CHR/Pop) abandoned its original MASS-APPEAL format roots well over a decade ago, oldies stations such as KRTH will continue to do VERY well, especially if the station gets freshened with eighties material, as Kaye has done exceptionally well.

The baby-boomers out there have FAR more money for disposable income than ANY other age cell out there, and stations such as KRTH are VERY happy to have them as listeners, as are KRTH's advertisers.

With a library composed of songs from 1955 to the early eighties (1982/83). KRTH isn't going away anytime soon, and especially with a GREAT morning showm with a host (Gary bryan) whom KRTH's listeners can identify with, as opposed to his hoeplessly overmatched predecessor, Sean (Hollywood) Hamilton.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

With a library composed of songs from 1955 to the early eighties (1982/83). KRTH isn't going away anytime soon

WHHAATT ??? Are they playing Mabelline or Hound Dog or Get A Job or any other title from the 50s? You're talking about KRTH right?

I agree with most of your comments. Anyone know what IS the oldest title they actually play? And what's the most recent? Remember back in the mid-late 90s when they experimented with playing What's Love Got to Do With It and Every Breath You Take?

 

[davideduardo]

With a library composed of songs from 1955 to the early eighties (1982/83). KRTH isn't going away anytime soon

WHHAATT ??? Are they playing Mabelline or Hound Dog or Get A Job or any other title from the 50s? You're talking about KRTH right?

I agree with most of your comments. Anyone know what IS the oldest title they actually play? And what's the most recent? Remember back in the mid-late 90s when they experimented with playing What's Love Got to Do With It and Every Breath You Take?

I checked MediaBase and did a 7 day report. I found a couple of 50's titles that played in weekdays not in overnights, like La Bamba and Shout. I also foound some 80's things, about 8 of them, most of which only had 1 spin. There were 557 different titles spun in the last 7 days. There were an amount of 70's titles, many in the 70's at 7 feature show and no place else. About 160 are 1973 to 1980. Another 100 are 1970 to 1972. The rest are 60's.

There were 20 Presley cuts, all played in overnights (do they have some kind of feature, or something?) and the week before there were 18 others, also played overnights. It looks like they feature several cuts a night in overnights, and only play them once in a many-week rotation.

So, the rough math is that in regular play, in regular daytime rotation, about 70% is 60's and about 25% is early 70's, with the rest being a couple of 50's songs and some post-72 stuff played all day, and some more in the Shotgun Tom 7 PM specialty show.

 

[davideduardo]

KRTH does sound MUCH better since ex-KOST PD Jhani Kaye took over and enlarged the library, while cutting down on the repetition which former PD Mike Phillips used to the point of overkill.

The audience has yet to react in the 25-54 demo they set out to improve. In fact, they are at the same 25-54 level now as Fall 2003 and Fall 2004, and only 0.4 above the 25-54 of Fall of 2005.

The out-of-the-box success of the JACK-FM format, certainly in LA, proves convincingly that a LARGE library (1,200+ songs) CAN results in solid ratings and enormous 25-54 numbers if executed properly.

But the non-Specialty show library of KRTH is about 90% or more 1960 to 1972, and totals just over 400 songs.

Since Top 40 radio (aka CHR/Pop) abandoned its original MASS-APPEAL format roots well over a decade ago,

CHR is as mass appeal as it can be given the fragmentation of tastes and the proliferation of formats and staitons in the last several decades. CHR has not been mass appeal for about 20 years, and has not had the double digit shares in most markets for 30 years.

...oldies stations such as KRTH will continue to do VERY well, especially if the station gets freshened with eighties material, as Kaye has done exceptionally well.

There are about 2 80's songs they played in the last week, both were, per MediaBase, played in what appears to be the 70's at 7 feature or specialty show.

The baby-boomers out there have FAR more money for disposable income than ANY other age cell out there, and stations such as KRTH are VERY happy to have them as listeners, as are KRTH's advertisers.

They are trying to make the station younger. No station that has nearly half its audience over 55 is very happy with its listener base. In LA there are no agency buys (local or national) against 55+ as advertisers shun that demo for radio advertising.

With a library composed of songs from 1955 to the early eighties (1982/83).

As I said, a MediaBase monitor shows 90% of the non-specialty show and non-overnight songs to be 1960 to 1972, with a pair from the 50's (Richie Valens, no doubt a tribute to "The Day the Music Died" for our local artist) and some post 70's stuff, most of which is in the 7 PM specialty show.

There are about 400 songs in regular rotation outside those exceptions.

KRTH isn't going away anytime soon, and especially with a GREAT morning showm with a host (Gary bryan) whom KRTH's listeners can identify with, as opposed to his hoeplessly overmatched predecessor, Sean (Hollywood) Hamilton.

I am sure that, given the billings, they will spend some time trying to fix it, especially since Jhani is one of the best programmers around (although not the first choice, who was, apparently, Bill Tanner). Billings are, however, off 15% from the 1998 peak, so I doubt they are going to be immensely patient for a protracted amount of time.

 

[briancraig]

David, I think you have way too much faith in audience research. It is not always accurate.

I remember once asking the P.D. of an oldies station in Memphis why his station played Listen To The Music and Long Train Runnin, but did not play Black Water. His reply was that Black Water did not test well.

I refuse to believe that someone who likes Listen To The Music does not like Black Water.

Same station played A Horse With No Name but not Sister Golden Hair. He had the same response. About 3 months later they started playing Sister Golden Hair. His response was that it tested well this time.

Do you really think the audience didn't want to hear Sister Golden Hair in February, but did in May.

This kind of thinking is why radio is boring and losing the next generation.

 

[davideduardo]

David, I think you have way too much faith in audience research. It is not always accurate.

Both ratings and proprietary research are very accurate.

In a market like LA, the margin of error for Arbitron is totally predictable, and in the top tier of stations, just a couple of tenths of a share point. Arbitron is audited by an ad agency committe of researchers, and has to maintain an accreditation, In exchange, ad agencies and advertisers place $21 billion in advertising based, mostly on the ratings.

I remember once asking the P.D. of an oldies station in Memphis why his station played Listen To The Music and Long Train Runnin, but did not play Black Water. His reply was that Black Water did not test well.

That is entirely possible. Stations contract testing with professional research companies and play the songs that do not have negative responses from the listener base.

The proof of music tests is that they are replicable... so another the next day, and you get within a couple of percent, the same results.

I refuse to believe that someone who likes Listen To The Music does not like Black Water.

Beloieve what you choose, but the fact is that it is the listeners who "vote" via some scoring procedure on which songs they do and do not want to hear on the radio today. If a signficant group does not want to hear a song, it is not played.

Same station played A Horse With No Name but not Sister Golden Hair. He had the same response. About 3 months later they started playing Sister Golden Hair. His response was that it tested well this time.

Very normal. Happens every test.

Do you really think the audience didn't want to hear Sister Golden Hair in February, but did in May.

Yep. the song rested, and recovered from its burn. Just like eating pizzas many nights in a row, you do not want one for a while. But, after staying away for a time, you start to want one again. Songs regularly go up and down in score, depending on play. If we see it is consistent, we rotate the song in and out of the library to prevent burn.

This kind of thinking is why radio is boring and losing the next generation.

You mean asking the listeners what they want to hear makes stations boring?

 

[cyberdad]

With a library composed of songs from 1955 to the early eighties (1982/83). KRTH isn't going away anytime soon

WHHAATT ??? Are they playing Mabelline or Hound Dog or Get A Job or any other title from the 50s? You're talking about KRTH right?

I agree with most of your comments. Anyone know what IS the oldest title they actually play? And what's the most recent? Remember back in the mid-late 90s when they experimented with playing What's Love Got to Do With It and Every Breath You Take?

Last trip to So-Cal a few weeks back, I listened to K-Earth off and on for the entire week. Oldest thing I heard was "La Bamba", which was also the only 50s (or early 60s) tune I heard. To me, this station sounds like just any other safe, inoffensive, dumbed-down station anywhere....albeit with a few "more-creative-than-average" jocks.

 

[surfdude]

Quote

"To me, this station sounds like just any other safe, inoffensive, dumbed-down station anywhere....albeit with a few "more-creative-than-average" jocks."

Good. Then, as a media professional, you know that that is the formula that works. Works for TV, Movies, and Radio.