Country at 102.7??????? Maybe???

[Starscream]

I think the entire radio industry has changed since satellite.Unless someone is in a cab or a rental car theres no way one would go back to FM from Satellite.Think about it,7 million xm subs 6 million Sirius subs thats 13 million people who left terrestrial radio,WOW thats quite a dent in the business.They should just be done with it and put Country on WNEW..What other possible format is there left? Standards? nice but never on FM in a major market.How many ways can you change around an AC format to be different.YAWN.......

Are you from NYC? I'm not sure if you are... as I'm sure many can attest too, but it's hard to listen to Satellite radio in your car here in NYC, as more than half the time it seems there is something blocking the signal... Satellite radio needs LINE OF SIGHT and nothing is worse for that than lots of tall buildings which causes your radio to cut out while you're stuck in traffic. So I use it only when I can't find anything I like on terrestrial radio, out on the open highways of NJ, PA and Upstate NY... when my free subscription runs out, I probably won't renew either... I pay enough for cable, I'm not going to pay for radio too....

What are you talking about? XM has a ton of repeaters in the city. If you have your antenna installed correctly on your car, there is absolutely ZERO signal problems I've had driving in Manhattan.

I've gotten a one-bar XM signal underground in a parking garage.

 

[Starscream]

Here's what I don't get.

A majority of PLJ's (and presumably LTW's) audience is soccer moms from the suburbs. PLJ does a TON of stuff in Jersey, because that is bread and butter for them.

The main argument against country is that "it doesn't play well in the city".

Well, I've seen Toby Keith and other country acts sell out PNC Bank Arts Center, Jones Beach, and Continental Airlines arena.

So if PLJ's audience is in Jersey - and CBS is going after PLJ's audience - then why didn't they try country?

 

[neo11]

Here's an answer:

PLJ, for New York area standards, is a much more mass-appeal format than country. The fact that country music artists like Toby Keith are able to sell out a 20,000 seat facility in a metro area of 15+ million is hardly indicative of potential ratings success for a radio station. Niche ethnic concerts also fill facilities like Madison Square Garden, but I don't think that means that a 24-7 Greek or Korean or Russian station on a full ESB stick is a good idea.

PLJ's music is more mass-appeal than country, by NYC-area standards, and despite that, the station is still mired in the low 2's. What keeps it afloat is its great billing. Country, whether justified or not, would not have such an easy time getting those ad dollars in NYC though. It probably wouldn't even get into the low 2's either. The last country station in NYC, WYNY, departed with a 12+ share below 2, and that was 10+ years ago. The region's demographics, if anything, have become less friendly towards country since then.

Country has been attempted in the suburbs recently, and failed. Look no further than the Y-107 quadcast. With two sticks which covered much of North and Central Jersey, a stick in Westchester and a stick on Eastern LI, pretty much all of NYC's suburbs had a country music station, but the station failed. Country also failed a decade ago on Long Island on 94.3. While it may have gotten better 12+ numbers than the station that now resides on that frequency...that pesky billing issue is once again what mattered then, and what matters now.

 

[JustinCase]

What are you talking about? XM has a ton of repeaters in the city. If you have your antenna installed correctly on your car, there is absolutely ZERO signal problems I've had driving in Manhattan.

I've gotten a one-bar XM signal underground in a parking garage.

I don't get it on 57th, 58th and 59th or in my building's parking garage so I mentioned my experience and that of some of my friend's... as for my antenna... I have no idea, the car came with it pre-installed!

 

[SmashTim]

Here's an answer:

PLJ, for New York area standards, is a much more mass-appeal format than country. The fact that country music artists like Toby Keith are able to sell out a 20,000 seat facility in a metro area of 15+ million is hardly indicative of potential ratings success for a radio station. Niche ethnic concerts also fill facilities like Madison Square Garden, but I don't think that means that a 24-7 Greek or Korean or Russian station on a full ESB stick is a good idea.

PLJ's music is more mass-appeal than country, by NYC-area standards, and despite that, the station is still mired in the low 2's. What keeps it afloat is its great billing. Country, whether justified or not, would not have such an easy time getting those ad dollars in NYC though. It probably wouldn't even get into the low 2's either. The last country station in NYC, WYNY, departed with a 12+ share below 2, and that was 10+ years ago. The region's demographics, if anything, have become less friendly towards country since then.

Country has been attempted in the suburbs recently, and failed. Look no further than the Y-107 quadcast. With two sticks which covered much of North and Central Jersey, a stick in Westchester and a stick on Eastern LI, pretty much all of NYC's suburbs had a country music station, but the station failed. Country also failed a decade ago on Long Island on 94.3. While it may have gotten better 12+ numbers than the station that now resides on that frequency...that pesky billing issue is once again what mattered then, and what matters now.

And those 12+ numbers on 94.3 while better than what they have now wasn't much better. Basically a difference between .8 to 1.2 or so which is what the Island gets now to a 1.1 to 1.5 or so which they had as country.

 

[SmashTim]

Back in it's heyday,and right up until it's last day on the air,WYNY was recognized by Arbitron as Americas most listened to Country Station with 1 million listeners and a 3 share.Back then it was a smaller company called Evergreen Media and they needed a place to launch their ''New Baby'',the new wktu so it flipped.So if it had a 3 share then,why shouldnt it get the same now,maybe even a 2 share.I think the entire radio industry has changed since satellite.Unless someone is in a cab or a rental car theres no way one would go back to FM from Satellite.Think about it,7 million xm subs 6 million Sirius subs thats 13 million people who left terrestrial radio,WOW thats quite a dent in the business.They should just be done with it and put Country on WNEW..What other possible format is there left? Standards? nice but never on FM in a major market.How many ways can you change around an AC format to be different.YAWN.......

That was YEARS prior to the switch and I mean YEARS. They have had had ONE book around a 3 share, but for the most part in the years before the switch they weren't even above a 2 share (and the couple times it did happen was barley above it)

 

[chuckydoll]

Provided you have the money to buy the station

You want country music on 102.7 that bad? Round up $200 million and take the station off CBS's hands. CBS will just say no.

 

[justthenumbers]

Now I will get put down by the people who only believe that consumers are in the 25-54 demo and everyone above 54 is ready to die.

If you want that mentality to change, you have to start with the ad agencies. They are ones who tell the radio stations that they aren't interested in demographics outside of 25-54. The radio stations are not in the business of trying to prove the ad agencies wrong...their goal is to provide the agencies with what they want.

Sometimes, it seems that formats are put on the air because they are PERCEIVED by agencies as being potentially successful among 25-54's. It's a quick way to get $$$$. Once enough Arbitron books are released, indicating that the station is a failure, its sales staff can no longer B.S. its way to getting ad dollars. And so, the owner changes it to another format that certainly looks to be 25-54-friendly, and the cycle begins again. It's not right, but that's just the way it is.

 

[davideduardo]

If you want that mentality to change, you have to start with the ad agencies. They are ones who tell the radio stations that they aren't interested in demographics outside of 25-54. The radio stations are not in the business of trying to prove the ad agencies wrong...their goal is to provide the agencies with what they want.

I get very tired of explaining that ad agencies get their orders from the client. In many cases, clients have extensive marketing departments that determine, via sales analysis, research and by design who the primary buyers of products and services are. Then they tell the ad agency who to buy against.

In most cases, the reason why 55+ is notbought against is the poor ROI that comes from such campaigns... the ad expenditure exceeds the profit on the sale! Older consumers require more impressions to make a buying pattern change... and that increase the cost per sale dramatically, often at the cost of profitability.

Sometimes, it seems that formats are put on the air because they are PERCEIVED by agencies as being potentially successful among 25-54's. It's a quick way to get $$$$.

Agencies are not consulted in format determination. Station owners look at what ages are being bought, and then the competiton and try to find the best format for the most open hole inside the sales demos. (Sidebar: the best way to let your competitors know you plan a change is to tell a media buyer... it will be out in 2 hours!)

Once enough Arbitron books are released, indicating that the station is a failure, its sales staff can no longer B.S. its way to getting ad dollars.

They certainly can not do this before the first book comes out, unless they offer astonishingly low rates. Agencies want a metric, and they are sticklers to the extent that they often use two to four book averages for buying, not guesswork and not a single book. For example, one Houston station doubled its 2005 performance in 2006; it was not till late 2005 that revenue increased because buyers wanted multi-book averages.

And so, the owner changes it to another format that certainly looks to be 25-54-friendly, and the cycle begins again. It's not right, but that's just the way it is.

Not really. You are oversimplifying, based on your belief that a station can bill "on the come" before any ratings are out. Yes, they can get a "pioneer rate" that is way below market averages, but real revenue is 6 to 12 months later following a format shift.

 

[TowerBuzz]

Is the CMA paying people to constantly post on this board about the viability of country music in NYC?. Because that is the only thing that would make any real sense to me in terms of why some people are so determined to try to keep this non debate alive. This market will not suport more than ONE mainstream CHR, ( true no one has tried to duel it out with Z100 since PLJ was CHR, but that's also becasue the suits dont feel that there's enough of an audience for more than one CHR, no matter how good Z is if there were enough people there would be more than one option) doesn't have one current based rock station, but country makes sense?.

:

 

[Garrett]

If you want country Music? Move down here to Lubbock Texas, WE HAVE 4 OF THEM!
Hey, it's cheaper to live here too!

 

[adma]

Is the CMA paying people to constantly post on this board about the viability of country music in NYC?. Because that is the only thing that would make any real sense to me in terms of why some people are so determined to try to keep this non debate alive. This market will not suport more than ONE mainstream CHR, ( true no one has tried to duel it out with Z100 since PLJ was CHR, but that's also becasue the suits dont feel that there's enough of an audience for more than one CHR, no matter how good Z is if there were enough people there would be more than one option) doesn't have one current based rock station, but country makes sense?.

:

Here and (esp.) on the dentist's board, I think it hinges upon the sentiment that country today best represents the supposed "values" once embodied by mainstream pop a la WABC.

But the fact is, if you want today's true NYC equivalent to the "white middle" core that once might have been the foundation for stations like WABC, it's of the post-MTV generation that's no longer specifically beholden to radio, and is indeed far more sophisticated in its consumption habits (even relative to WABC-era music) than such old formulae are prepared to address.

To them, these values-obsessed radio advocates are as unsophisticated and extinct as Archie Bunker...

 

[TowerBuzz]

I see what you are saying and it actually makes a lot of sense. To me country music fanatics in a market like NYC reflect the same subconscious, socio economic desiresof a utopia that say fervent viewers of "friends" held. "Friends" was a very carefully calculated, completely unrealistic view of 20 something life in New York city. Let's forget the improbability of their living arrangements but for almost all of it's ten seasons "Friends" painted a picture of Manhattan as almost a suburban paradise, free of any sort of diversity. It was easily the most xenophobic thing I have ever seen. You cannot say that after all those years there was one black face and it's Aisha Tyler on that show, was some sort of accident on nbc's part. It comforted many and offered certain values that had so little to do with actual life in New York. I think country would do the same thing in the subconscious of many who are probably not even savvy enough to realize it. What else can you call a constant din of begging for the LEAST urban format in the world to be placed smack in the middle of THE MOST URBAN market on earth? With the exception of am overnight spin of a Cowboy Troy song, country in NYC basically is "friends". Ill be there for you, here in the family freindly, lilly white suburban enclave era that we fear filled ilk all desire so deeply.

WOW, THAT was deep!.

 

[adma]

But the sad thing is, even Friends was more "sophisticated", i.e. it may have been lily-white and unrealistic, but at least there was a certain MTV-generation plausibility to its cast of characters, even relative to NYC.

It was certainly more sophisticated than Jack-FM is today--and in its turn, Jack is, sadly, more "sophisticated" (or at least realistic) than those critics who accuse it of being "too rock". After all, even all but the most dunderheaded lilywhite/"mainstream" under-40 white-middlers in NYC might recognize "How Soon Is Now" or "Bizarre Love Triangle" as de facto "hits", rather than alien presences, and big friggen deal if actual hit radio at the time never played them...

 

[adma]

And on the whole, Friends isn't even the best point of comparison. I'd be thinking of something more like a "Brady Bunch Movie" scenario where the cast of WKRP is freezedried and dropped into 2006 Manhattan...

 

[TowerBuzz]

Actually I think it is the perfect comparison but we can agree to disagree there. The point being you got the gist of the theory. I doubt that anyone who holds these feelings would ever cop to them or even be able to fully comprehend that they do indeed feel this way. No one in their right mind wants to be seen, or consider themselves intolerent, but I think that is all it is about when pople yearn for the "HappY days" era, or the Brady Bunch for that matter too.

 

[adma]

It's probably the perfect comparison insofar as it's how these "New York radio experts" actually see young New Yorkers being like. At least, when they're not insolent baggy-pants hoodlums. (And hey, if the latter is what their own kids or grandkids are actually like, it probably says more about incompetent--including culturally incompetent--parenting skills than anything.)

Though this may be a better approximation of their grasp of the "here and now"
http://www.oddballcomics.com/article.php?story=2007-01-08

 

[Hamp]

I see a lot of posts comparing New York to Chicago. Just to set the record straight Country is not huge in Chicago. In fact the country share in Chicago is smaller than in about 90% of the U.S.

The fact is that country does the worst in the largest, most ethnic markets. Even Dallas and Houston aren't nearly the big country markets they used to be 10 or 20 years ago.

You are right Country isn't as big in Chicago as in maybe a southern market. But the point is, there is somewhat of a market for it. So NYC doesn't really have an excuse why they don't have one.
I am not a country fan, but it just baffles me to hear some people say there isn't a market for country in NYC. One of the most diverse cities in the world and you mean to tell me there aren't enough advertising dollars to support a country format in NYC, I just don't buy it.

 

[Hamp]

Re: Fat chance

Country is a lily-white format. The New York metro is increasingly brown and black -- even in New Jersey, Westchester and Long Island. That's why CBS turned 102.7 into a female-centered A/C.

Indeed, country is a "white" format. I did look up the Chicago metro area demographics to get my facts straight and indeed, in terms of ethnic breakdown, it is nearly as diverse as NYC, however, it has a much smaller percentage of its population born overseas. One also has to look at the listening preferences of the white population in the two cities too. Chicago is a Midwestern city, and stereotypes aside, I'd venture to guess that there's more white Americans in Chicago who are originally from Midwestern states and thus more used/receptive to country music, than in NYC.

Country may have done moderately well with WYNY ten years ago, but a lot has changed demographically in NYC and its suburbs in that time. Look at WPLJ for an example. It's a suburban format that plays rock and pop music, nothing too hardcore or too old. It bills well but does poorly in the overall ratings, but its great billing keeps the format going. Country would also be a suburban format, but country is a harder sell in NYC than Kelly Clarkson and Maroon 5 which PLJ plays. I'd venture to guess that a country station would not equal either the ratings or the billing of even PLJ.

Y-107's quadcast broadcast from four locations and covered pretty much all of NYC's suburbs well, but the format failed. That doesn't help country's cause in the NY area.

I'm wondering where you got your stats because according to the 2000 census New York has a much larger immigrant population....http://www.census.gov/main/www/cen2000.html
Also having lived in both cities I can vouch for the fact that the demographics are enormously different and as you stated so is the mentallity among whites.
Country is huge in Chicago...there are infact many small town midwesterners that moved to the big city.
New York's best shot for country is it's already existing KTU-HD, country.

Like there aren't people who move from small towns to NYC either.

 

[neo11]

People move from small towns to any large city. But one has to look at what their composition is in the overall total population. And whether or not they want to hear country music.

The last time country was on a big stick in the city, it would barely make it to the 2's, and that was over ten years ago. In WYNY's last book, it was below a 2.0. Demos have changed unfavorably towards country in NYC since that time. Perhaps that explains why country also failed on 94.3 on Long Island and on Y-107's quadcast in all the suburbs just a few years ago. Surely if the suburban audience was there, as many claim, we wouldn't have seen failures in the last couple of suburban efforts to air that format.