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Country Hopes for Big City Future

JohnHendricks said:
Not sure where to start here...
First, Suburban Stations don't seem to get much respect anywhere when comes to Arbitron. Their surveys are often-times breakouts of the metro samples, so stations in suburban areas--including New York Suburbs, are getting breakouts from the HUGE NYC TSA. Hardly a complete picture of how these stations do in their individual Suburban markets. So, to expect ANY Suburban station to have a commanding ratings share is asking a great deal. The suburban stations who do well are extremely local (to their specific location) both on-air and promotionally. They HAVE to be--they can't afford marketing campaigns directed to the entire metro, which is something all successful metro stations do routinely.

I keep hearing how Y107 failed in NYC (where it had no signal). How could it POSSIBLY succeed with no signal? So, let's drop that one, okay? To ask listeners to "find" the station amongst several frequencies is also a HUGE challenge that Y107 (remember, Y107 was on different frequencies--all 107-something) couldn't overcome. So, you have what's tantamount to a suburban signal (several suburbs!) without the ability to localize it to any ONE suburb. Double-whammy! They had to sound like a NYC station without the advantage of being able to localize with promotions & programming.

Now, for my "R&B-something" comment. Perhaps if you've been in NYC for many years, you might not notice the R&B slant to most all NYC MUSIC stations. Let's drop the WABC, WINS & the AM and FM talkers from this discussion, okay? Listen to Smooth Jazz 101.9--you'll hear more Gladys Knight that Kenny G. Even WCBS-FM in it's final days was more R&B-Classics than "Oldies". And WLTW-FM's strength is in its ability to relate to the majority of New Yorkers--and yes, "European Americans" (the new PC description) are still the majority in NYC--even Manhattan! This is NOT to say that E-A's don't like R&B, we all know they do...so please don't blast me with that one! It's interesting that WLTW consistantly (over the past decade) has over 7 share points while everybody else begins in the upper 4's and below.

Every successful country station in America has one thing in common: HIGH CUME! The winners in country are always high cumers. There are many reasons for that. THAT'S the reason suburban stations don't do well with country--they can't get enough cume! AC's are strong at getting long periods of TSL which makes them much more efficient with the limited cumes they get. That's why AC's or derivitives of AC do well in suburban markets and why WLTW does well in the suburbs as well as NYC metro.

Any country station in NYC--to be successful--will have to cume big time...and current business models for country don't answer the big question: How do you get big cume in NYC?

John, you're contradicting yourself. Yes, in the overall New York book, suburban stations end up near the bottom because they only cover a small portion of the entire suburban market. That's why WALK-FM only has a 1.1 in the New York book, even though on Long Island they're close to a 7 share.

However, you're forgetting that 12+ doesn't really matter much, and that the real data...the geographic and demographic and daypart breakouts...are available to radio stations through Arbitron. Even the smallest suburban station can subscribe and get precise data on who is listening, when and where. Also, there's embedded books. There's a Long Island book, and embedded even within that is the Hamptons-Riverhead book for the East End. There's Bridgeport and New Haven books, Monmouth and Trenton books, and there was a Westchester book until a year or so ago. The suburban station thus won't care if it is getting an 0.3 in the New York book, because if they're based in, say, Monmouth, and are targeting that area....if they're one of the top dogs there, then they are a successful station.

Y107 failed *even though* it covered country friendly areas, including, yes, much of North and Central Jersey...as that area was covered in part by three transmitters...in Westchester, Long Branch and up in Northwestern Jersey. They also covered the East End of LI and Westchester county....all areas where country would theoretically stand a chance of doing rather well. Y-107 failed. It didn't fail because it didn't register in NYC. It failed because it didn't register anywhere in the region, despite putting in a strong signal in most of the suburbs.

WBAZ is another great example. The East End of LI is probably the least urban and most country-friendly area in Nassau and Suffolk counties. Country on WBAZ was a miserable failure. On the other hand, as one of many AC's in that small market, they're doing well, because the format sells. Also, 94.3 on LI couldn't get out of the 1's. Now, the station that is on, Island 94.3, can't get even get into the 1's in most books. But why have they succeeded where country has failed? Billing. If they can sell the format and are advertisers are reaching listeners within that 0.8 or 0.9 share (keeping in mind, also, that Island doesn't cover more than half of LI...so surely their numbers in Western Suffolk and Eastern Nassau, where their signal is best, are higher), then the format will do relatively well. It won't set the world on fire, but it will do well, and better than country. A radio station is a business, and if it can't make money with a particular format and serve its target audience, it doesn't matter what their 12+ number is.

And yes, there is an R&B slant to most NYC music stations because that's what sells in New York. New York has always been a fast-paced, rhythmic town. Musicradio 77 was a very fast paced Top 40 station. Then it was overtaken by the original 92 KTU, which brought disco to the airwaves 24-7. Z100 shot to the top for the same reasons, as did KTU in 1996 (replacing country, which had been the lowest-rated commercial FM in the city when the format flipped). Radio stations are going to air the music which sells, and in New York City, especially with its increasingly large proportion of minorities--R&B and related genres sell, whereas country does not. WLTW has been doing so well, in part, because they've shied away from exclusively playing lilly-white AC music and have thrown in some rhythmic and disco cuts which have appeal in NYC.

And no, "European-Americans" are not the majority in New York City any more. Here's the Census data from 2000 if you don't believe me: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/3651000.html.

I'm sorry, but the prospects for high TSL *or* high cume aren't there for country. If PLJ, a much more "mainstream" format by New York listening standards, and which gets its bread and butter from the suburbs, just like country would, can't break the low-2's, and the last country effort in NYC, WYNY--which had been on the air for several years and was established--ended its run below a 2 share, over a decade ago, with significant changes to the ethnic and racial makeup to the city since then that, if anything, are even more adverse to country....I'm just not optimistic at all. Free FM, with a 12+ in the low 1's, probably would be a greater money-maker than country, just by virtue of appealing to young males.

I don't defend all the practices of commercial radio and there's a lot that I certainly disagree with in the way commercial radio conducts its business, however, it absolutely is not a mystery to me why country isn't on the air in market #1.
 
And, I hate to scratch the surface of Godwin, but keep in mind that these idee-fixe inferences to white "European-Americans" might have, even to a lot of NYC's white Euro-Americans, an insulting touch of "white heritage" ugliness to them. Perhaps inadvertently.

Whether one likes it or not, NYC's "white Euro" population's generally become acclimatized to cultural diversity on the radio dial and otherwise--or else, in conjunction with other media-consumption trends, they're no longer all that beholden to radio for their obsessive-compulsive 24/7 personal needs, the way they might have been a generation or two ago, so it doesn't matter all that much the way it might have in the Golden Age of WABC. It's called, "evolution".

To portray "white Euros" as disenfranchised because they don't have "their own" radio is reading a greater degree of Archie Bunker-level idiocy than actually exists in 2007--well, maybe it does exist as a 2%+ share of the general population, so it might as well exist as a 2%+ share of the listenership, but still...
 
I can see that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one...which is why there will probably never be a country station in NYC. If we continue to focus on past failures in the format, we'll never invent anything new. And that was the very point I've been trying to make: the business model for a country station in NYC doesn't exist--it'll have to be created.

And I do remember I time--and not so long ago--when radio prided itself on creation rather than replication.

I remember when Big & Rich visited Good Morning America in 2005 during the CMA Show in NYC. The producers were so proud of the set they created for Kenny & John: hay bales!!!!!! The Warner Bros Records Rep had to threaten to walk before they'd take away the riduculous "Hee Haw" look. It's insulting, but the NYC media has that impression of what country is--and it absolutely isn't anymore. It's hip, happenin', up-beat and rockin'.

A great radio station is so much more than the music it plays. Someday, somebody is going to figure this out and NYC, LA and SF will have great country radio stations. In fact, keep an eye on SF--the new "Wolf" could be the missing link I've been talking about. Stay tuned.

As for this topic...this is my final posting. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the great dialog! --j
 
It's insulting, but the NYC media has that impression of what country is--and it absolutely isn't anymore. It's hip, happenin', up-beat and rockin'.
Yeah, relative to what you're pitching to, about as much as Alan O'Day's "Undercover Angel" was in 1977. And it doesn't matter that stations like WABC were playing it then as a chart-topper, either.

In fact, take away these easy applied stereotypes and you'll may find the truer and more sinister (and yes, maybe insulting) NYC-media impression of what country is, today--that is, a soundtrack to Rural/Suburban Red State AmeriKKKa at its ugliest. Dixie Chicks as "traitors", Lee Greenwood's "God Bless The USA" as a Fascist harbinger, etc.

Again, I may be pricking the hide of Godwin there--but in order to really address the issue at hand, it must be done, rather than hiding behind claims of "hip, happenin', up-beat and rockin'" oblivious to context.
 
Wow, I can't believe that this is still a surviving post topic. Paraphrasing Jeffrey, I really don't know why these non-NYC residents are vying so hard for a country station when TODAY'S ethnic makeup of the metro area cannot nor may not care to relate to country music, as it bears no relevance to everyday urban living. Oh oops wait a sec....I think there ARE parallels with country music and urban living...uhhh..."struggle"....uhhh..."hard times"....uhhh....boo-hoo....you can find those elements in any friggin artform if you look or listen hard enough...zzzz!

You'd be hard-pressed to find NYC residents clamoring for an old school dance/hiphop station in Arkansas because we know the reality. We rightfully don't expect Little Rock radio audiences to find common ground with the teachings of Tony Humphries, Jellybean Benitez, De La Soul, or DJ Red Alert for that matter, no matter how much these names may pack lounges and clubs throughout the 5 boroughs and the surrounding suburbs.

So again, I say....stop using WHN as justification for a NYC country station, because I can silence that notion with WBLS and KTU re-adopting their ORIGINAL NY-centric that landed them at the TOP of all ratings books that found WHN laughable in comparison during that same time period some 20 plus years ago.

...and yet NO calls for an old school NY-centric dance/hiphop station....something's seriously wrong with this picture....
 
PuertoRicanSoul said:
Wow, I can't believe that this is still a surviving post topic. Paraphrasing Jeffrey, I really don't know why these non-NYC residents

Or, *ex*-NYC residents.

Though of the sort that, if they revisited their old nabe and came across a popular taqueria, they'd think "my city is gone" rather than "hey, great food, and Time Out NY recommends it"...
 
While country does not find the die-hard appeal in NY as in other markets, the real reason why country does not exist here is because of the advertisers. Radio stations know they can attract more advertisers and sell more ad time with other formats besides country. While there are fans here (mostly in the suburbs), the NY area as a whole is not as "country-friendly" as other markets - and the advertisers here reflect that. We must remember that ratings don't matter much anymore - it is what format that will bring in the most ad dollars. Hence, the multitude of AC, Top 40, and Urban stations we have in the NY metro area.
 
NJMike said:
While country does not find the die-hard appeal in NY as in other markets, the real reason why country does not exist here is because of the advertisers.

Ad buys are based on audience delivery in the target demos. Most are not format specific, and there is no bias against country... NY ad agencies buy country as much as any other format.
 
DavidEduardo said:
NJMike said:
While country does not find the die-hard appeal in NY as in other markets, the real reason why country does not exist here is because of the advertisers.

Ad buys are based on audience delivery in the target demos. Most are not format specific, and there is no bias against country... NY ad agencies buy country as much as any other format.

If that was the case, then I am certain that we would have seen country on the air in NYC in the last ten years.
 
neo11 said:
DavidEduardo said:
Ad buys are based on audience delivery in the target demos. Most are not format specific, and there is no bias against country... NY ad agencies buy country as much as any other format.

If that was the case, then I am certain that we would have seen country on the air in NYC in the last ten years.

Can't get big enough numbers to bill well.
 
DavidEduardo said:
neo11 said:
DavidEduardo said:
Ad buys are based on audience delivery in the target demos. Most are not format specific, and there is no bias against country... NY ad agencies buy country as much as any other format.

If that was the case, then I am certain that we would have seen country on the air in NYC in the last ten years.

Can't get big enough numbers to bill well.

Yes, that was exactly my point as well. And ultimately, billing is what matters.
 
neo11 said:
Ad buys are based on audience delivery in the target demos. Most are not format specific, and there is no bias against country... NY ad agencies buy country as much as any other format.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: (hot) country music is already on the air in New York City.

WLTW is playing the Dixie Chicks, Rascal Flatts, Faith Hill, Bon Jovi/Jennifer Nettles, Carrie Underwood, Martina McBride, etc. WPLJ is playing Rascal Flatts, Carrie Underwood, Bon Jovi/Jennifer Nettles, The Wreckers (Michelle Branch), etc. I'm guessing that Lite FM is spinning Tim McGraw and Lonestar once and a while, too.

A full-blown hot country/new country station in NYC isn't that far away, muscially speaking. The interesting thing to look at is that the country songs that WPLJ and WLTW are playing now were hits on the country charts several months ago before crossing over to AC and Hot AC. Would a country station fractionally hurt WLTW? The new Rascal Flatts song on Lite FM is old on country radio right now.

Just a different observation.
 
eatspaste said:
neo11 said:
Ad buys are based on audience delivery in the target demos. Most are not format specific, and there is no bias against country... NY ad agencies buy country as much as any other format.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: (hot) country music is already on the air in New York City.

WLTW is playing the Dixie Chicks, Rascal Flatts, Faith Hill, Bon Jovi/Jennifer Nettles, Carrie Underwood, Martina McBride, etc. WPLJ is playing Rascal Flatts, Carrie Underwood, Bon Jovi/Jennifer Nettles, The Wreckers (Michelle Branch), etc. I'm guessing that Lite FM is spinning Tim McGraw and Lonestar once and a while, too.

A full-blown hot country/new country station in NYC isn't that far away, muscially speaking. The interesting thing to look at is that the country songs that WPLJ and WLTW are playing now were hits on the country charts several months ago before crossing over to AC and Hot AC. Would a country station fractionally hurt WLTW? The new Rascal Flatts song on Lite FM is old on country radio right now.

Just a different observation.

You answered your own question though. Those are crossover hits, and crossover hits exist in many genres. And it's *only* the crossover hits that are getting any play in NYC, and on stations where you'll also hear hits that can fall into many other genres.

The evidence has shown, time and time again, that a full-fledged country format is not likely to be a winner in NYC. Even if it can garner similar numbers to a PLJ or a Jack FM, for example, the format will need to sell ads and make money to be a success (certainly, PLJ's success can be attributed to great billing, not great numbers). Country is a very hard sell in NYC.
 
One thing you have to remember is that the percentage of music today which AC and Country stations share is very high, while the percentage of music which CHR/Pop and AC share has never been lower, according to a recent article in R&R, primarily because CHR/Pop hasn't been a MASS-APPEAL format in well over a decade.

Bill Drake launched 93/KHJ here in LA as a mass-appeal format in 1965, but the format has essentially abandoned that objective and has unquestionably been a PRODUCER-driven format as opposed to a SONGWRITER-driven format for most of the past 15+ years.

Consequently, Lite FM, KOST in LA, and lots of other AC powerhouses can play LOTS of country songs which have crossed over from the country charts, while CHR/Pop stations such as Z100, LA's KIIS, and TONS of other 'alleged' CHR/Pop stations out there can't touch the stuff because the soccer moms who started bailing out of the CHR/Pop format in the late eighties (and haven't come back) know that the CHR/Pop format is NOT going to play country music, or most any kind of music that they'd want their very impressionable daughters to listen to.

Insofar as the topic goes, there are TONS of VERY successful country stations in many of the country's 15-20 largest cities, including LOTS of markets where over 40% of the market is composed of Hispanics.

If NYC has such a demographic mix, country could conceivably work on a station with a better signal, and with an owner with deep pockets and patience, something that is almost non-existent in the corporate structure of today's radio owners, such as CBS & CC.

Finally, if a station in LA with a 2.0 (or thereabouts) rating in LA can consistently bill over THIRTY million dollars, I don't see why a NYC station with a similar rating couldn't meet or exceed that amount of $$$$$ rather easily.

The new country stations in LA and SF will undoubtedly be watched very closely by anyone contemplating launching one in NYC; country music sales were down by less than 1% in 2006, and have been one of the VERY few bright spots for music retailers and country music concert promoters for several years.
 
By the sound of things, maybe we're just better off allowing for the passive countrification of Lite/PLJ/whatever, as part of a general "Carrie Underwooding" of the mass-appeal pop realm.

However, we're forgetting something important here, and it's to do with mythology. That is, maybe the designed reality of CHR/Pop has been "mass-appeal"; however, the mythology, extending back to the golden age of Top 40, Bill Drake's KHJ and all, has hinged upon its being a "youth" format. A "hip" format. And, at least in its early glory years, a "rock" format--that is, the kind of format that could declare a Frank Sinatra hit to be "rock by proxy". (And later, "rock" insofar as Casey would always refer to "the rock era" on AT 40.)

So, if CHR/Pop's gotten harder-edged in recent times, it's because it's chasing that particular mythology. But as far as this "mass-appeal" thing you're describing goes, it's tended to be identified with the squarest, dreariest, brainless-Stepford-Wife end of the demo.

So, the soccer moms who bailed from the late 80s onward? Spoken from the mythology-worshipper POV, good riddance. They're the ignorant poor saps behind Top 40s descent into AC hell in the 70s and 80s, anyway. (But as indicated, they may well be "necessary" in spite of themselves; after all, the youth/hip/"rock" myth and cred attached to KHJ in the 60s has basically bailed out of radio altogether, so might as well resign oneself to the fact that old mythologies aren't eternal.)
 
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