Cumulus dumping classic rock fromat...

[FOZZIE BEAR]

"Why 'should' we have any of those formats?

The market 'should' have exactly the formats they have. Because the market is deciding right now what they want. through arbitron ratings and this wonderful little invention, perhaps you've hreard of it....It's called 'money'. Stations make this 'money' by selling "advertising". They sell the "advertising" by playing stuff that attracts an audience.

Therefore, ipso facto and ergo sum, if a company has a format on the air, they must be drawing enough of an audience to make this so-called 'money'.
And if they weren't making money, they'd be changing formats to something that DID make them money."



To say that stations are only around becuz they make money is somewhat misleading. I have known of way to many stations that have been run into the ground by management... which lead to the audience leaving becuz the station sucked. This in NO WAY means that the market is done with that specific format. That would be extremely ignorant to think. What it usually is... is some moron or group of morons who bring a station down. Which leads to advertisters, listeners leaving. If you have a station that is run well, entertaining etc... the audience is going to be there. The audience is going to stay. The audience is going to buy from the advertisers. Just becuz a format went away in a market doesnt mean that it is not wanted in that market. Also, we all know ARBITRON is a joke. So, to suggest that ARBITRON really has anything to do with it... is foolish. You could get better results from a drunk and a dart board. However, arbitron is the rediculous tool that our industry uses to decide who stays and who goes. That is truly very sad. I understand and know about this thing that YOU call money. Trust me... I know. However, if the product is not there... then the audience is not there. Think of this... How is it that the EDGE in Dallas remains on the air? I thought ROCK was dead. However, it remains. So, is it that ALTERNATIVE ROCK is a live and well? And ACTIVE is dead? No. It comes down to a station that is being programmed well and has good if not really good jocks on the air. Then, look at the BONE. As BORAT would say... "Not So Much". And whats sad... is that it had SOOOOOOOOOO much potential. The station could have been so cool. They could have come in and grabbed ACTIVE ROCK by the throat and done so well. However, some moron within Cumulus thought... "I have an idea". And that was pretty much it after that. Put it this way... a couple of years back I was looking into a airshift they had open. At one point I was talking to the PD and I asked him if they were jumping on the local music scene since the Eagle had died. He simply said... "No. We don't want to mess with that." WHAT THE HELL!!! You are going to by pass an opportunity to expose YOUR station to all sorts of people? After that... I seriously said "Thanks anyway" and moved on. I did not want to sell my house and move so I could work for a station or a PD that would be that stupid to not take advantage of a very cool opportunity like that. I currently work for an ACTIVE ROCK station. We are #2 out of 51 stations (*However, I thought people were saying that format was dead. Also, our largest demo of streaming listeners... are from the DFW area. They email, call etc... telling us how much they love the station and how they wished they had someone like us in DFW).

So, that is why I know that... if you have a good product... people will listen... advertisers will buy spots and everyone will get this thing YOU call MONEY becuz of it.

Also, let me put it this way...when it comes to this THING you call MONEY.... With that in mind.... Why was HOWARD STERN taken off the air many years ago in DFW.... to only be brought back a couple of years later. If he was taken off... wouldnt that be becuz there was no money being made? Wouldn't that be becuz the MARKET said they didn't want him? No. It was becuz of very bad decisions by management.

 

[txchipk]

Hang On... let me make sure to front sell this with "I am not trying to start some sort of fight"... I am just a huge believer in the ACTIVE ROCK FORMAT.

Again, I'm just pointing out reality of today. In the the country as a whole, the rock music scene is nowhere where it once was. That is just a reflection of change in tastes. When I was in high school and college, most markets had a couple of AORs, an alternative rocker, and a classic rocker. In this one, we used to also have a rock-leaning CHR in KEGL for most the 80s and 1992-1993. Today in most markets, the CHR is awfully heavily rhythmic. Most markets today are missing a current-based AOR (much less having 2 of them).

Formats cycle up and down. CHR was in trouble in the post-disco days; it came back and was strong again by the mid-80s. For several years in the mid-80s, D/FW has 3 CHRs (92.5, 97.1, 106.1; later 94.9, 97.1, 106.1). The format fell again on hard times in the early 90s with a lot of the CHRs going hot AC; leaving many markets without any CHR. Certainly over recent history, the rock format has been in a big down cycle. The number of stations playing current rock isn't growing. As further evidence, just in the last few days, WAVF "96 Wave, Charleston's Rock Station" was killed off after 20 years for a "Jack"-like adult hits format. It was not owned by an evil giant corporate company; I think most people considered it to be a darn good station (it lied between active rock and alternative). For them, it was the rare market where they had two choices, so they still have one station (WYBB "98X"), but it is far from being one of the overwhelming choice of most people there.

 

[FOZZIE BEAR]

I totally understand what you are saying when you mention "cycles". Also, I read a huge article about 3 or 4 months ago... that said that HIPHOP/RHYTHMIC formats were starting to suffer, lose popularity becuz of the music (same old crap being crank out) and it was only going to get worse. So, everyone has an opinion. However, I am just a firm believer in... If you have a good if not great product...you won't get shut down, flipped etc.. It has nothing to do with EVIL CORPORATIONS. It just comes down to bad management.

 

[MikeShannon914]

But who hires and pays this "bad management"?

I still believe in the old adage of "if you build it, they will come." Jack had no real track record other than just being a "new thing" when loads of stations nationwide signed up for the format.

If people 55+ don't count, then why does anyone waste time manufacturing Depends, Geritol, male enhancement products, 'look younger' cosmetic products, luxury cars, or setting up cruises to Alaska, etc? It's up to sales to find the target advertisers, instead of just contacting agencies to make their job easier. To make blanket statements that no one 55+ or 45+ is a worthy consumer, I don't get it. Money can be made off ANYONE, no matter what their age is. I know the "smart money" is going to follow the younger (and more numerous) demo, that supposedly has more disposable income (tho you could ask my Gen Xer friends who are trying to support spouses and babies and a mortgage and two car payments to tell you otherwise about that, esp in light of $4.00 a gallon milk and $2.70 a gallon gas.) Really, I think it has a LOT to do with AEs' laziness and a reluctance to establish new channels and markets to sell to.

And the reality is, music (or whatever programming) is the means to sell crap by. The music is the catalyst; the ads are why a station is on the air. Remember when KVIL billed 3rd in the entire nation in the 1980s...mostly by cutting up songs, cutting song/artist info down to zero, and playing ads relentlessly--even spoken-word ads played over the intros of songs. But people still listened. The tradeoff was that the marketing budget was astronomical, and listeners tuned in because they thought they could win 'a new car every year for life,' or for the Prize Catalog numbers, or for the People's Choice call, etc.

I could take about any format you could name, and develop a long list of likely advertisers to fit it.

Formats can also grow and adapt to demo changes over time. The Oasis could have added more currents or delved into Latino or R&B-tinged SJ currents to drag in different listeners. The Bone could go to a Modern Classic Rock format and draw in some of the late Boomers and early Gen Xers instead of relying only on the Boomers to listen. You can broaden your base without completely dumping a format. Sure, things go in waves, but what's your measuring stick? Some CONsultant's interpretation? Record sales? Some trade publication article? Some region of the country that has nothing to do with DFW? Total reliance on a flawed ratings system? Number of internet downloads?

I know that many of you guys' responses are valid and well thought and well researched...but they mostly fit the mold of what's been done by AEs in the past...taking the simplest route, selling through agencies, going to car dealers, etc...when there's many markets that could be CREATED to fit any format. The past shouldn't dictate the future, esp when we're talking about a major loss of listeners to iPods, CDs, satellite, etc...someone just needs to get off their duff and get creative. EVERY business allots money for advertising, so why not go seek out what fits a given format? Or develop formats that aim towards unserved or underserved listeners?

Part of the problem is guys like David Henry at CBS will not allow their AEs to develop leads or to go off the beaten path to try something different. It's all about IMMEDIATE results or you're out the door. It's on a 'earn your keep every single day,' 'what have you done for me lately' basis. So your typical AE is going to hammer the car dealers and the other easy targets, or just establish relations with agencies and let the agency do all the work. There's no guaranteed salary (just a temporary draw, to be paid back) and AEs are cast to the wolves to try to make a consistent paycheck every week. That leaves no time to 'work' or 'create' new streams of revenue or to test the waters in uncharted territory.

So count me amongst the ones who put the blame on corporations, operations AND sales management.

And congrats to me on the world's SECOND longest post.

 

[Robert Bass]

I have to agree the direction of music today is not what it once was. From the 1950’s through the mid 1980’s or so, music related to the audience on so many levels. The lyrics usually had meaning and the melodies were catchy. It hardly mattered whether it was country or rock or pop. I look at the song lists on TM’s HitDiscs today, and usually end up wondering WTF is all this? The last song from the 1990’s I ever remember actually liking was Verve’s "Bittersweet Symphony”.

Guess I am showing my age… :-[

R

 

[MikeShannon914]

Yo yo yo, DJ Rob Base...I mean, Rob Bass...you are infringing on someone's artistic license by expecting something innovative or a little familiar or something that might accidentally conform to some earlier decade's interpretation of music. Someone's gonna do a drive-by and put a cap in yo a$$.

Besides, it's all about melding in with what sells, not about expressing someone's creative vision and trying it out on an audience. Oops, there I go again being optimistic and unrealistic and devoid of reality. :-\

Really, tho, groups like Maroon 5, Hoobastank and a very few others have a few elements in their songs that harken back to the good ol' days of 70s and 80s pop. But waiting through Martina McBride and Tim McGraw to hear those on a supposed "Light Rock" station is not worth the time (KLAK included, not just K-Ville.) Those Hitdiscs are always full of record company-$upported garbage, with maybe one potential hit every few months that guys like us would find palatable. But I lament with you over the earlier days of a REAL mix of songs and artists in the Top 40...that's part of the fun of listening to KEOM, is hearing Michael Murphey sandwiched between Foreigner and The Bee Gees. That's how it really was back then. But hearing McGraw sandwiched with Gwen Stefani and John Mayer just doesn't do it for me these days. A lot of that can be blamed on the format segmentation that took over FM around 1978, and listeners just expect it that way now. Even "Jack" has a limit to how far they'll veer away from a self-imposed benchmark.

 

[Robert Bass]

But hearing McGraw sandwiched with Gwen Stefani and John Mayer just doesn't do it for me these days.

McGraw...? Stefani...? Mayer...?

Who are they ???



R

 

[TheRover]

Radio where the DJ is not picking the songs, has a lack of integrity.

In the world of Radio with DJs:

On one end you have the narcissistic KNON DJ playing and hyping only something that he and his 5 other friends really like.

On the other end you have a Classic Rock / Alternative Rock DJ playing and hyping songs that the MCP (The Master Control Programer) has chosen.

Now in the middle ground of all of that is where I say that FM Rock radio should be. A DJ picking what he or she really likes, and, what other fans of the genre would like, that does -not- require an acquired taste. I think I know the difference.
As a Station Manager, I would see to it that DJ's were hired and retained that knew the difference.

It was done ALL THE TIME when I was in Austin from 1973-1977 on KLBJ-FM by NON-Personality DJs! If there was an "attitude" or a "statement" that needed to be made, it was done MUSICALLY---- Not be overly-paid "Personalities". If you wanted to hear all of that "talk" with some MUSIC, then you could turn on a KISS-FM type of station!!

 

[FOZZIE BEAR]

YES! Does the DJ want to make 10 people happy or 10 thousand people happy... when it comes to the songs being played? I host a 6 hour all request show on an ACTIVE ROCK station. I continue to be number one in the market...simply because I have fun on the air, have fun with the listeners. Also, when it comes to the requests... YES... they are calling me and requesting the songs. However, I have to decide if it's something that is going to keep people turned on...or turn people off. It's not their personal jukebox. I will be honest though… I will throw in some of my favorites during my show. This is simply because I know that my tastes are the same as my listeners. Also, I know what our market wants to hear as well. This comes into play when deciding what to play. I will get requests for stuff like SLAYER all the time. However, I usually don’t spin it...simply because the majority of my listeners aren't slayer fans. It has nothing to do with their music… I dig SLAYER. But, do I want people to stay or go? Also, I don't have a PD who is telling me... you have to play this or this...he knows that I KNOW what I am doing. However, even with me not spinning something like SLAYER… I still sound like the coolest kid on the block… because I am going to the edge…without going over.

 

[Robert Bass]

Rover,

I think we've been over this before, but it bears repeating.

Allowing jocks to pick the songs is simply asking for trouble. What you will end up with is biased rotations. Some tunes will get overplayed, while others will rarely get touched.

This applies to all formats, be it rock, country, pop or whatever.

That's not to say jocks shouldn't honor a request, but to allow them to pick every song has been done and was found to be too problematic.

This is Radio 101 stuff...

R

 

[theshadow]

I still believe in the old adage of "if you build it, they will come."

Good point Mike...I'm with you...However, many programmers don't
want to take the time to figure out how to retain the listener after
the building (format/station) has been built, and the new "fad" has
worn thin. They don't want to get off their collective buttocks and
actually work, and figure out why folks are going to other stations,
or grabbing an Ipod to listen to, instead of their station. Management's
solution is to blow things up, fire staff, and start all over on a quest for
yet another "fad" format, and the vicious cycle starts yet again.

Money can be made off ANYONE, no matter what their age is.

Yes, indeed it can....One word.....WALMART.............. ;D

 

[MikeShannon914]

That's not to say jocks shouldn't honor a request, but to allow them to pick every song has been done and was found to be too problematic.

I know it'd be a strange problem at KEOM, since none of the jocks ('cept Robert) were ALIVE in the 70s, or even 80s!

Nah, here's the order songs should be picked on mainstream stations:

1. Whatever ones the record company rep paid to have played (it's your obligation, right?)
2. Whatever list Corporate sent down the fax to the PD.
3. The boss's favorite song.
4. The boss's girlfriend's favorite song.
5. The Top 5 from Billboard, even if they don't fit the format.

But a jock would need to have a love for, or a thorough knowledge of, a format before his/her instinct to pick "good" songs could be trusted...and "good" is too subjective of a term. Take a Mike Selden for example, playing Top 40 for years and years, and winding up at KPLX not long after the format change to country in 1980. Is he going to be educated on what's hot and what's not on a totally different format? Other jocks might have personal agendas or grudges against certain songs or artists (I know I'd never play Toby Keith if I was working at KVIL,) or maybe the jock's version of what fits a format wouldn't fit a given station (Selden, speaking of, crossed that line a lot at KVIL, much to Ron's chagrin!) Perhaps, as some stations used to, give a jock a list to pick from, and let him play his own choices from that list every so many songs.

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

I have to disagree that ROCK is not popular. Look at the summer tours... They are OZZFEST etc... They are not HipHop shows. For example... The reason why THE EAGLE vanished from the DFW market was becuz the programming SUCKED. Seriously. It was beyond bad. They had talent. Well, they had Chris Ryan. As for THE BONE... that lame station can't make up it's mind in what they want to play. At first, they were going to be TEXAS ROCK. What the HELL is that? Texas Rock? Thats beyond stupid. Let's start a station that truly BOXES us in. Then they change again. I promise you... you place a station like KFMX in the DFW market... you would be shocked how much POSITIVE reponse there would be.

However, if you don't have a rock station in a market... people simply say... "Ohhh, thats becuz ROCK is dead". No. It's becuz the ROCK fans have NO ONE to beg for a ROCK STATION. There is no way a listener can voice the needs. There is no way a listener can say to CLEAR CHANNEL etc.. "Hey! We need a station that plays STATIC-X, PANTERA, METALLICA, DROWNING POOL, GODSMACK, PK5, MUDVAYNE, BLACK LABEL etc..." Rock is NOT dead. There have simply been some VERY BAD PD's, OM's who have either allowed the stations to die or have single handedly killed them on their own. Once again, THE EAGLE was not killed becuz ROCK died... the EAGLE died becuz of the PD/MD.

Litany alert... I am wallowing in the SMU thrashing (well actually building a pinata but never mind that) and I am catching up with this lovely exchange. Here goes.

Um, Fozzie, care to comment about Z Rock? I give you that the Bone, Merge, Crap that Cumulus is shoveling can't make up their mind. Eagle's programming was worse than describing. It was a black cloud looming over Las Colinas. I could see it from my studio. At least, Z Rock (to borrow a phrase from another format ) "kept it real." They knew who their demo was and catered to their needs. Problem was, that demo was usually delivering pizza and barely made enough to pay a car note. Granted, Rock (the essence of it all) peaked in the early 90s but there is enough of it to last for a full format in this market.

 

[Robert Bass]

Mike,

Building a pick list for the jocks, has it's own set of problems, unfortunately.

Jocks are known to ignore songs on the list if they don't like them. You're still going to wind up with biased music rotations.

You mentioned the age of KEOM jocks. That initself isn't really an issue. These kids get to know the songs after a bit of exposure, and they could pull it off. What stands in the way however, is the fact we have so many kids each year, usually 30+. It's difficult to get them all on the same page with respect to artist repetition, song repetition, etc.

R

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

One small clarification. I don't even place the "metal/glam rock/party rock of the 80s and 90s" and "concert rock/bands-that-would-play-three-full-hours-BEFORE-the-encore rock of the 60s - late 80s" in the same category. No offense to Metallica, Motley Crue and Van Halen, but compared to Floyd, Stones, Queen, et al. It's a flea market of possibility.

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

With that in mind.... Why was HOWARD STERN taken off the air many years ago in DFW.... to only be brought back a couple of years later. If he was taken off... wouldnt that be becuz there was no money being made? Wouldn't that be becuz the MARKET said they didn't want him? No. It was becuz of very bad decisions by management.

Fozzie, with vociferous diatribes like that, you should be around here more often. If you are so doting on the corporate machine, wait until some of the "others" (pun intended if you saw the movie) are in here slinging around their stat-friendly pratter. Grab the Cheetos and wait for your hands to turn orange. IJS.

As for as Stern and his multiple excursions through this market, bad decision is an opinion. Him not knowing when to say when is a fact. For example, one time in '97 when he was taken off air (from the Eagle when Nationwide purchased it), there was a protest that (wait for it) 150 people showed up to entertain. King Nebuchadnezzar was in the house and the writing was on the wall. At least in Big D, the audience was shouting, "When." Yeah, others tried to bring him back but admit it, when you have a tired, frumpy David Lee Roth replacing you on a ridiculous station, a major market is trying to send a message.

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

I still believe in the old adage of "if you build it, they will come."

"Adage" or one of those often mistook movie quotes for actual historical wit? Just had to stab at you a little, young man.

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

Nah, here's the order songs should be picked on mainstream stations:

1. Whatever ones the record company rep paid to have played (it's your obligation, right?)
2. Whatever list Corporate sent down the fax to the PD.
3. The boss's favorite song.
4. The boss's girlfriend's favorite song.
5. The Top 5 from Billboard, even if they don't fit the format.

And THAT is why you are Mike Shannon and I am not. ;D

But seriously folks, even though my cohort's tongue was firmly planted in cheek with that retort, there is a lot of truth in it. Remember the days of yore in radio when there were actually... oh what did they call them again... some title that was simplistic and made them sound authoritative. Hmmm... oh yeah, MUSIC DIRECTORS! Now, that MD position usually goes to some dip in promotions that has the biggest CD collection. There is no passion for music anymore in commercial radio. If you want passion, check out Bass, KNON or other (dare I say) non-coms.

Passion these days are spent focused on the next 150-spot deal sold to Hooters and playing the crap those out-of-work actresses dig on their iPods.

Man, those were good times.

 

[TheRover]

Rover,

I think we've been over this before, but it bears repeating.

Allowing jocks to pick the songs is simply asking for trouble. What you will end up with is biased rotations. Some tunes will get overplayed, while others will rarely get touched.

This applies to all formats, be it rock, country, pop or whatever.

That's not to say jocks shouldn't honor a request, but to allow them to pick every song has been done and was found to be too problematic.

This is Radio 101 stuff...

R

Robert, I don't buy it.

What is problematic to those of us that love music, more than promos, contests, 7th grade sexual Humor, and freebies and giveaways, is the very nature of Classic Rock playlists. If you cannot take personal pride in your playlists, then you're not doing the kind of radio that falls into the middle ground that I spoke of.

The people do not have a voice.... what a shame!!

 

[grantchester]

An interesting discussion, without resolution I fear...
I'd like to agree with Rover about the philosophy of freeform radio, but the songs he's mentioned in previous posts would give me a headache to hear on the radio!
In the late '60s', we were a more homogenous lot. As the 70's progressed, it all fragmented. There is no consensus any more on what rock should be.
I respect Robert for what he's trying to do on KEOM, but '70s hits to me are just about the worst I could hope for. I love Redbeard's approach on KZPS, but to tell the truth, I can only stand about 1/8th of what I hear. The key may be to build an 'aesthetic'... to find a way to put the listener in a place where he or she would be receptive to the tune. Figure out how to do that, and you'll have the number one station in town.
g