Dayton's Ultimate Oldies Radio Expands Format

[pbr]

This weekend FM 97.7 and 101.1 added tunes from 1975 and 1976 to their oldies format. All of the tunes previously on the playlist, which goes back to the early 50s, continue to be played. The tune count is now over 6,000 tunes.

The stations launched the expanded format with an "Ultimate Request Weekend", where listeners got to request anything at all. Volunteers working on Saturday and Sunday report a great response, and positive feedback to the added tunes.

The station proves that many listeners are tired of the overly-repetitive tight playlist that the commercial stations think they must play.

Those who live from Kettering to Piqua, Xenia to West Dayton, should tune in for something a bit different, and refreshing!

 

[udfan07]

Good to hear. I like listening to the station.

 

[callletters]

I love it too. Dayton was long overdue for a good oldies station.

 

[One Who Knows]

This weekend FM 97.7 and 101.1 added tunes from 1975 and 1976 to their oldies format. All of the tunes previously on the playlist, which goes back to the early 50s, continue to be played. The tune count is now over 6,000 tunes.

The stations launched the expanded format with an "Ultimate Request Weekend", where listeners got to request anything at all. Volunteers working on Saturday and Sunday report a great response, and positive feedback to the added tunes.

The station proves that many listeners are tired of the overly-repetitive tight playlist that the commercial stations think they must play.

Those who live from Kettering to Piqua, Xenia to West Dayton, should tune in for something a bit different, and refreshing!

What data (other than telephone calls) do you have that indicates you proven "that many listeners are tired of the overly repetitive tight playlist thats the commercial stations think they must play"?

I have known radio stations that could take 100 phone calls on a 5 hour "request show" and pull less than a 1 share in the
Arbitron ratings.

That having been said, I'm sure these 100 watt stations in Dayton have some listeners. (Probably more than enough to make a couple of phone lines ring.) But to make the kind of statement you're making, one would think "Ultimate Oldies" would show up somewhere in the ratings. (Either the normal Arbitron or the Non-Comm numbers). So, far it hasn't happened in any case.

BTW: The same thing happened to WULM in Springfield. 3,000 plus song titles. Station staffers reporting "phone calls from all over Dayton, Huber Heights, Fairborn". No ratings. Never.

 

[pbr]

In response to "One Who Knows" (who really didn't know about the book):

WSWO spent the $$ to get the Winter Arbitron book. It managed to get a 0.4 share. But the signals' primary coverage only encompasses about 65,000 of the 850,000 people in the ratings area.

I leave it to others to do the math - but Ultimate Oldies Radio is doing better than most of the commecial stations in the specific area served by its puny 100 watt signals.

 

[One Who Knows]

PBR:

Apparently it is you who needs to bone up on how Arbitron works.

I have a source who checked your claim. Here's what the source discovered:

WSWO did show up with the numbers you claimed in the Winter '09 rating book. Congratulations. You tied WQRP, and did a tenth of a point better than the Richmond, Indiana stations did in Dayton. However, this number is barely negligable in terms of audience...and when you factor in the book's margin of error, either your station did a little better than the numbers showed - or it didn't show up at all.

And, again, your claim that the station has a "sizeable" enough audience to suggest WSWO is "doing better than most of the commercial stations served in the specific area served by its puny 100 watt signals" is also bunk. When looking at zip codes, WSWO does not even show up in the zips near your tower, let alone being competitive with any local commercial radio station there.

You can't just take a 12 plus figure and make the case you're trying to make. I know more information, but cannot go on without disclosing information proprietary to Arbitron.

As to the argument about short vs. long playlists - in the oldies format, it is possible to program successfully, within reason...both ways. However, both ways does not suggest you can program 3-thousand, 4-thousand or 6-thousand songs have and gain anything close to a measurable audience. Do you realize an "average listener" can listen to WSWO for, perhaps as much (statistically speaking) as an hour or longer before they hear a "favorite"? And, at that level, the listener would have to wait 13 days to hear that favorite again?

Programming a radio station by vanity has never been shown to work. In most documented cases, it always leads to failure.

One more note: when the PPM was devised, it was thought that it would lead to longer playlists because people would expect to share radio more like an i-Pod. PPM findings, however are now indicating playlists need to be even shorter, because average time spent listening is shorter. And before you make the argument that you can increase TSL by increasing your playlist...that's not what we're talking about. People naturally turn off their radio's to deal with their lives (getting a phone call, eating, pulling a car into a garage, etc). You can't artifically make TSL go up like you could 20 or so years ago. So, if people tune you in, your station had better be playing something they'd like to hear, or they may never come back.

One could successfully argue a 400 song list vs 200 or even vs. 800. But you can't successfully argue a playlist over more than about 1,200 songs. Even Jack stations that tried, ultimately trimmed back. It was just too many songs.

 

[pbr]

To: One Who Knows (it all)

I really am not going to debate with you the Arbitron methodology or estimating listenership.

I do know that none of the oldies station in the Dayton area have survived. There have been many over the past 20 years. They all had tight playlists and tunes that showed up again in a matter of hours. If their corporate programming mentality was on target, they would have suceeded.

My post was to inform folks of the expanded format - and the joy of hearing a wide variety of music.

It was not intended to spur a comeback by someone who always thinks they know how to do things better. End of debate. Save your breath.

Ultimate Oldies Radio is financially solvent, has a bunch of dedicated volunteers to run things, and a lot of listeners who like what they hear. Radio can be fun!

 

[88.9 Miracle]

I'm certainly not speaking up for or on behalf or UO but...

I will say that Ratings only matter when it comes to commercial stations because commercial stations DO NOT Program or give a ratt's A$$ about their listeners but rather they try to program and please their advertisers so that they can make money. Clear and simple. Why else would one need ratings other than to impress their advertisers?

Believe it or not, there are stations out there that are not as concerned with ratings or garnering the largest number of listeners as they are at simply pleasing the folks that DO listen to their stations.

As a matter of fact, ratings, advertisers and corporate buyouts are what has literally ruined radio as we knew it. It's called narrow minds and lack of innovation. Without innovation stations like WEBN would not have made it. But they did something different and it turned to success, until the Corporate buyout came. I've yet to talk to one person in the past 3 years that can even tolerate WEBN anymore because they play it safe and no longer innovate. Cookie cutter radio does not do anything DIFFERENT. They haven't for many many years. Yeah, they have ratings but the size of radio listenership has significantly dropped. Lack of innovation. They are paying the price for it. Need I say ipod! 30 years of the same old crap would get boring to anyone.

Has anyone done anything NEW in the past 30 years? Oh yeah, that's right, Christmas in July. Now that is innovation.

Radio is not supposed to be about money and ratings. It's supposed to be about providing a public service and satisfying your audience, not your sponsors. Corporate radio needs to think out of the box. If they don't they will continue to kill radio. People are sick and tired of what Corporate radio has to offer. We hear it everyday. But our listeners are happy with what we are doing because we are doing something different. Geez maybe HD will save the day. Try something different guys. INNOVATE!

 

[One Who Knows]

To: One Who Knows (it all)

I really am not going to debate with you the Arbitron methodology or estimating listenership.

I do know that none of the oldies station in the Dayton area have survived. There have been many over the past 20 years. They all had tight playlists and tunes that showed up again in a matter of hours. If their corporate programming mentality was on target, they would have suceeded.

My post was to inform folks of the expanded format - and the joy of hearing a wide variety of music.

It was not intended to spur a comeback by someone who always thinks they know how to do things better. End of debate. Save your breath.

Ultimate Oldies Radio is financially solvent, has a bunch of dedicated volunteers to run things, and a lot of listeners who like what they hear. Radio can be fun!

Glad you don't want to argue Arbitron...you really need to study it and understand how it works before you make broad-brush statements about what the numbers mean. No intent to insult you with that statement, it's just the truth.

So, why has every oldies station in Dayton gone away? It doesn't have one thing to do with playlist size. Cases in point:

WING in the 80's rebuilt it's library to over 2,200 songs. The ratings plummeted. When the station cut back, the numbers went up.

Oldies 103.9 went away. But not due to playlist size, a bigger hole in the market appeared after WGRR came on the air and began to influence the Dayton Market. It was a business decision. You could make more money in another format. And, oh, by the way...their library was well over 1,000 songs.

Oldies 95 went away, too. And yes, Cox did restrict that station's playlist. According to a source to which I've spoken, there were circumstances "behind the scenes" that had nothing to do with programming or playlist size. The list was tightened. Maybe they went too far, maybe not. Under any circumstance, the ratings went up. By then, though...the advertisers were beginning to desert the format because the audience was becoming, "too old". (Something which I happen to disagree with, but I can't control advertisers and their thinking.)

The original WGRR is gone. (read reason above-demos). WDJO/WCIN-AM is still around, but is surviving on a real shoestring. (Local direct advertising, yes...big agency buys, no.)

I don't begrudge you for your wanting to inform people about your changes. I only took issue (and still do) with your attempt to equate a 0.4 12 plus share as "proof" your programming concept is superior. If you're going to pay for, and try to quote Arbitron numbers, then (whether knowingly or not), you've entered the same game the big stations have to play.
Don't blame radio pros (who deal with those numbers and the reasons for them day-in day-out) for calling you out on it.

A "comeback" by me? Don't make me laugh. I've programed (or assisted in programming) several successful oldies stations. You've done a 0.4. There are many professional radio people in Dayton would like to help you (and not cut your list to 200 songs). I know professional radio people now out of the biz full time who have volunteered for your station, but leave because of the "my way or the highway" attitudes over there. When all they want to do is change the order of the songs to improve the flow.

WSWO is solvent. I never questioned that. I know it is. I also know you do a lot of non-oldies programming that also brings you underwriters. We're on the same page there.

But, a radio station's purpose is to "serve the public interest, convenience and necessity". The purpose LP's were created was to serve smaller communities with underserved programming. Yes, oldies fits under that description these days.

Being on radio is fun, and should be. I think your audience could be bigger than it is today, if only you would play the hits (and yes, there are a lot more of them than the "average" commercial oldies station plays), rather than try to play everything that's ever been released. We can disagree there. But, I know...from actual blood, sweat and tears and trial and error...what you're doing never equates to a "big" audience.

And, for those of us who work in radio day-in, day-out and who understand from looking at the actual research why stations make the decisions they make...a lot of us are still having fun. Are there bad owners? Yes. But, there were bad owners in 1978.

 

[One Who Knows]

I'm certainly not speaking up for or on behalf or UO but...

I will say that Ratings only matter when it comes to commercial stations because commercial stations DO NOT Program or give a ratt's A$$ about their listeners but rather they try to program and please their advertisers so that they can make money. Clear and simple. Why else would one need ratings other than to impress their advertisers?

Believe it or not, there are stations out there that are not as concerned with ratings or garnering the largest number of listeners as they are at simply pleasing the folks that DO listen to their stations.

As a matter of fact, ratings, advertisers and corporate buyouts are what has literally ruined radio as we knew it. It's called narrow minds and lack of innovation. Without innovation stations like WEBN would not have made it. But they did something different and it turned to success, until the Corporate buyout came. I've yet to talk to one person in the past 3 years that can even tolerate WEBN anymore because they play it safe and no longer innovate. Cookie cutter radio does not do anything DIFFERENT. They haven't for many many years. Yeah, they have ratings but the size of radio listenership has significantly dropped. Lack of innovation. They are paying the price for it. Need I say ipod! 30 years of the same old crap would get boring to anyone.

Has anyone done anything NEW in the past 30 years? Oh yeah, that's right, Christmas in July. Now that is innovation.

Radio is not supposed to be about money and ratings. It's supposed to be about providing a public service and satisfying your audience, not your sponsors. Corporate radio needs to think out of the box. If they don't they will continue to kill radio. People are sick and tired of what Corporate radio has to offer. We hear it everyday. But our listeners are happy with what we are doing because we are doing something different. Geez maybe HD will save the day. Try something different guys. INNOVATE!

This only shows how little you understand the radio business.

Why do radio stations do hundreds of thousands of dollars in music and perceptual research each year? We sure as heck aren't talking to advertisers there. No, we're talking to listeners about their wants, their preferences, their needs and how radio can address them. You see, by giving the public what it wants, we get the ratings which enable us to get the advertisers. What a lot of non-radio or casual-radio people don't understand is that what some listeners want is not what the majority wants.

But let's separate that argument from the other one you want to make: the question of innovation, or lack thereof. On that, you have some valid points. We need more creative people in this business. We need people who want to question "the way it's always done". But the way you get that innovation is by taking, let's say something like an HD-2 channel, being innovative, making it work and making it pay.

WEBN was allowed to be creative for many years because, back then, FM was not as profitable a business. Programmers were allowed to take chances on FM, because managements back then cared a lot less than they did about their megabucks AM rockers and Middle Of The Road cash cows. This can, and I think will, happen again with HD eventually.

"Yeah, they have ratings but the size of radio listenership has significantly dropped." Prove it. You can't. 95% of the public is listening...and, in the case of the stations I work for, the audience has grown significantly.

"Radio is not supposed to be about money and ratings. It's supposed to be about providing a public service and satisfying your audience, not your sponsors." You have to make enough money to pay the bills and pay your staff before you can provide that public service. Radio should never apologize for being a business.

"Try something different guys. INNOVATE!" I'm all for innovation. But the wasteland of radio has been laid in ruins by so-called programming "experts" who say you can play everything under the sun on a station and be successful. I'm just not for any station doing something which has been proven does not work time and time again.

 

[One Who Knows]

I'd like to take a final opportunity here to address a couple of items on my mind as it regards this topic.

I have no bone to pick with the people who choose to volunteer at Ultimate Oldies in Dayton. There are things they are doing with the stations which I think are good, and a few things imposed upon them by the management at the station which could be improved (and yes, that regards the extreme number of song titles they play). But, I believe in LP-FM's.

Just my opinion here. But, were I able to own an LP-FM, I would realize a couple of things:

First: 100 watts only gets you so far. (About 8-10 miles if the terrain is right...far less if the terrain is wrong).

I would realize that I would want to try and get every listener possible as close to my tower as humanly possible. My instincts though, as a successful radio programmer, would be to program my station based upon tried and true methods proven to get a sizeable audience.

The ideas suggested by posters here are not "innovative". They've been tried before. Dozens of time. Never has it been proven to work.

I mean, how many times are you going to hit your head against a wall before you decide it hurts?

You can program an oldies station successfully...and not just play 400 titles. Many people loved the old WGRR. Yes, they played a lot of titles...but nowhere near 6,000. It's all in when and how you use the "lesser known" or "lesser loved" titles.

Good luck to Ultimate Oldies. I have no doubt they'll be on the air for quite a while. I only suggest the audience could be even bigger than a the Winter '09 0.4 12 plus with a bit of regard to playing the hits and better catagorizing and playing the lesser known stuff. With proper programming ideas, with careful attention to imaging and, yes...listener involvement, the station is in an area with sufficient cume to break the 1 share mark. And, for an LP-FM...that would be news.

 

[Puff the Dragon]

Had to put my 2 cents in here. I've tried to listen to Ultimate Oldies but the amount of "stiffs" I heard played turned me off. Maybe a collector would enjoy that but not a guy listening to hear a tune I really dig. Sorry to be blunt. I'll stop there because Puff is a nice dragon.

 

[techie2]

I can see both sides of this debate.

On the one hand, there is room for improvement on the programming. It's better than when the station first came on the air, but it sure sounds like they are programming to the small, vocal minority of listeners that ring the phones instead of the silent majority that is more passive. I could see how the average listener would sample and then tune out quickly.

On the other side, with a noncommercial station, sometimes the small vocal minority may be the only ones that send money. That's why there are so many religious non-comms -- they may get no ratings, but religion is a great way to get people to send money.

Adding to the problem -- how does one program a small NCE or LP station with a potential "mass appeal" format, in the absence of any significant research budget? Are there any ways to get valid audience research at a low cost and still get a truly random sample? (Phone calls, web surveys, and radio message boards do not count...)

 

[One Who Knows]

I can see both sides of this debate.

On the one hand, there is room for improvement on the programming. It's better than when the station first came on the air, but it sure sounds like they are programming to the small, vocal minority of listeners that ring the phones instead of the silent majority that is more passive. I could see how the average listener would sample and then tune out quickly.

On the other side, with a noncommercial station, sometimes the small vocal minority may be the only ones that send money. That's why there are so many religious non-comms -- they may get no ratings, but religion is a great way to get people to send money.

Adding to the problem -- how does one program a small NCE or LP station with a potential "mass appeal" format, in the absence of any significant research budget? Are there any ways to get valid audience research at a low cost and still get a truly random sample? (Phone calls, web surveys, and radio message boards do not count...)

Well...one could attempt to contact a commercial radio programmer somewhere in the region who might have some experience in the format and solicit advice or, perhaps pay a stipend for their assistance.

Just an idea.

 

[techie2]

Well...one could attempt to contact a commercial radio programmer somewhere in the region who might have some experience in the format and solicit advice or, perhaps pay a stipend for their assistance.

Just an idea.

That would probably just get the programmer fired for violating a non-compete clause.

Hey, it could be worse. Most LPFMs just run satellite religion or fringe political programming.

 

[pbr]

I see three lengthy postings, one after another, from “One Who Knows”. While I felt it unnecessary to be drawn into a debate on ratings and how to program a radio station by someone who professes to be an expert and is probably wishing to sell his services, I feel it is important to clear up some false impressions he is making on how things operate at Ultimate Oldies Radio.

1. Quantity of music. The last 2,000 additions to the playlist were entirely due to suggestions by the volunteer announcers. The Music Director categorizes the music and sets the repetition rate, ensuring only a couple of the more obscure tunes get played each hour. That is the reason we now play 6,000 titles, and can continue to expand to any number of tunes.
2. Suggestions. Volunteer suggestions are welcomed, and often implemented. But management always has to make a final decision.
3. Rules of the Road. Every professionally run radio station has them. A few high school and college stations are devoid of rules, anarchy prevails, and they sound terrible. Ultimate Oldies Radio has three general rules - follow the format, don’t say anything that will offend our listeners, and follow the FCC regulations. Simple enough! None of our volunteers have ever been told to leave.

We have a large group of dedicated volunteers, and couldn’t run things without them. Also a waiting list of people who wish to get training to become announcers.

 

[Timewarp]

I enjoyed this station last time I was back in Dayton! They sound fine!
By the way, I was an Oldies jock in a major market called Chicago.

 

[KevinFodor]

I enjoyed this station last time I was back in Dayton! They sound fine!
By the way, I was an Oldies jock in a major market called Chicago.

Excuse me for asking, but can you name me one Chicago radio station (including the oldies station) that plays a library of 6,000 songs and shows up in the Chicago ARB?

 

[88.9 Miracle]

The number of tunes in the library is not want matters. You can have 20,000 if you want. What matters is where they are injected and how often they are rotated. You can have a core of 400 hits that is your primary rotation and the others are injected at only one per hour or every other hour in just the right places.

 

[One Who Knows]

Well...one could attempt to contact a commercial radio programmer somewhere in the region who might have some experience in the format and solicit advice or, perhaps pay a stipend for their assistance.

Just an idea.

That would probably just get the programmer fired for violating a non-compete clause.

Hey, it could be worse. Most LPFMs just run satellite religion or fringe political programming.

That's why I suggested contaction a programmer "in the region". I am aware many programmers have a non-compete within say 50 miles of their host city clause in their contracts.

And, why should most LPFM's run satellite only religion or fringe political programming? Why not fill a "need" formatically, especially if there is a big one in a market area?