DMAs that should be merged into others

[firepoint525]

I've known a couple of people from Cape Girardeau and when the subject of television came up, they would talk about WPSD, KFVS, even FOX23, but never, ever WSIL, like it was a poor relation.

Yeah, we west Tennesseans were kinda the same way about WBBJ. It was a running joke in some of my college communications classes, although some grads eventually went to work there, however briefly.

WSIL 3's signal in general was less than optimal. Cable didn't come to our neighborhood in Cape Girardeau until early 1981, so we had no choice but to rely on OTA. We were on a hill and blessed with a good rooftop aerial. It brought us reliable (if fuzzy) signals from the nets in St. Louis (KSD 5 was good for catching what WPSD preempted ... and for being able to watch SNL in pattern!!). Anyway, WPSD was strong no matter which direction the antenna was pointed, but you had to have those elements aimed *exactly* in the direction of WSIL's transmitter for it to be a clear picture. If you weren't in that g-spot, you got a bit of snow in the mix. On windy days it was not pleasant.

I hear you, with regard to those SNL delays, but unfortunately, too far from Memphis to watch it on channel 5. Usually a "VCR alert" for me. By the time WPSD started presenting it on time, no one cared about it any more! :

Back to KFVS 12 for a minute. It's amazing how far away it was carried -- As late as 1994, 12 was on cable all the way over in Paris, Tennessee. That year we were staying in a motel, and while getting ready to meet an old friend of mine, my then-wife had the TV on some CBS program, and I heard the KFVS legal ID. I damn near cut myself shaving! I figured the main CBS would be WTVF 5 in Nashville and/or WREG 3 in Memphis. It didn't feel like we were that close to Cape.

Interesting, since Henry County was definitely outside of their coverage area (and probably too far from Memphis to be taken seriously by Memphis TV stations, either). Meanwhile, in Obion County, we had WTVF on cable there.

 

[bpatrick]

I still think southern New Hampshire should be split from Boston/Worcester.

I would have a smaller market with Manchester as it's center (channel 9), the state capitol of Concord (channel 21), Merrimack (channel 60) and Derry (channel 50). Keep channel 9 as ABC. Would channel 21 try CBS again? Channel 60 of Merrimack is a Telemundo station, so maybe that could be tweaked by NBC? By default, channel 50 could become FOX with a MY subchannel.

I know this isn't going to be happen, but it would be nice. The market could also include Portsmouth (crossing the bridge to Kittery, ME puts you in the Portland/Poland Spring market), Nashua, Salem, Keene and, most importantly, Brattleboro, VT. Presently, Windham County, VT is the fringe of the Boston/Worcester market. I think they'd fit a market of that type a lot better, since radio-wise, they're a natural trading partner with Keene, NH, which is in southwestern New Hampshire.

P.S. Also, Brattleboro is physically closer to Springfield, MA and Albany, NY then they are to Boston.

I don't know but sometimes people would rather be in a major market than smaller one? One benefit is network O&O affiliated stations (which means few to no network preemptions) and direct knowledge of the what/whereabouts in that major city. I noticed that is why people in Cleburne and Randolph counties in Alabama watch Atlanta TV stations versus those out of Birmingham. As a result, those 2 counties are now apart of the DMA, and the stations here in Atlanta even cover those 2 counties during severe weather events. Interesting enough, they both joined the Atlanta DMA around the time Birmingham's 2 network O&O stations were sold (WBRC & WVTM).

A couple of years ago a tornado hit Randolph County pretty hard, but the Atlanta stations had little if anything to say about it
(WSB and WXIA made brief mentions, IIRC). At that point, some folks in Randolph began petitioning their representative in Congress to have the county (and perhaps, by extension, Cleburne) moved into the Birmingham DMA. I think the reason the two counties were placed in the Atlanta DMA goes back to the early days, when WSB and WAGA (on 2 and 5 respectively) put stronger signals into the counties than did WBRC and WVTM (6 and 13), But if you look at the cable lineups today, WSB and WAGA are missing (although WXIA and WGCL are carried), yet all the Birmingham stations are carried. So maybe it is indeed time to make the Alabama-Georgia state line the dividing point between DMAs.

I don't know about that one because in Wedowee, Charter is the main cable provider and carries nothing but Atlanta TV stations on the basic and digital line up with th exception of WSFA out of Montgomery. Whereas in Heflin in Cleburne County, they do carry both cities stations. If either of them were to move it would likely be Cleburne because it more direct ties to Anniston than Randolph that seems to just lean more towards Atlanta flat out.

I should clarify my statement; WSB and WAGA are not on cable in Heflin/Cleburne County but you're right that they are in Wedowee/Randolph County. Yet Heflin does get all the Birmingham stations so I can see the logic in making Cleburne part of the Birmingham DMA. Oddly (and perhaps WJSU had some say in this), WAAY in Huntsville is carried instead of WSB as Heflin's second ABC station, or so it was last time I looked, but WBRC is the lone Fox station (WXIA and WVTM carry NBC; WIAT and WGCL, CBS). Correct me on this.

I do find it odd that 2 and 5 would not be on Heflin's cable system(s), since I remember in pre-cable analog days they could be picked up in Anniston (I don't recall 11 getting that far, although I picked it up in Birmingham on many a night).

 

[charlestondxman]

Florence and Myrtle Beach were split until the late 1980s. Myrtle Beach and Horry County was in the Wilmington market while the Florence area was its own market.

The Wilmington stations used to show MB during their weather forecasts. All of them were available until the mid 1990s, and WECT was the last one to be dropped in 2008. All were easy grabs on an antenna.

Now MB and Florence is its own market.

 

[JackBauer112]

Fairfield, Vacaville and Vallejo are split markets. Solano County, CA is split into two TV DMA Markets. If you live in the Eastern portion of Solano County, your market is Sacramento/Stockton, but if you live in the Western portion, your DMA is the San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose Markets.

 

[vibe]

I remember staying in a very cheap motel in East St. Louis, IL in the early 1970's. 40 years later I distinctly remember the small B and W TV with the 1 ear antenna. It was mid March and I got a perfectly clear Ch 12 from Cape G. That must have been a killer signal. Doubt it was tropo.

Getting back to topic, one reason why some small DMA's should be merged with the larger ones is the possiblity/likelyhood of getting a getting a picture with higher resoulution and/or better sound. In SW Fla I get the ABC from Ft. Myers from 35 mi on my 50 cent yard sale antenna and the ABC from Tampa-St. Pete (60 mi) mainly from local sunset to mid morning. But the point is that the ABC from the larger market has much better sound quality. At least to me.

For people using cable/sat in very small markets, (with no distant nets), they may not be getting the most out of their "entertainment system."

 

[Morgan Wick]

Nielsen's use of county boundaries was unique at the time. A better use would probably be zip code boundaries, but they, of course, didn't exist in the 50s.

Census tract boundaries would be best of all, though I bet they would change really slowly. County boundaries work pretty well except for massive counties like San Bernardino and Riverside Counties, or stuff like Fairfield County, CT, where I'd bet probably only the panhandle actually watches NYC stations as opposed to Hartford stations.

Wasn't Denver contiguous as late as 2006 or so?

 

[Poledo]

Do any network affiliates in these absurdly large DMAs have a setup in place to pipe in different commercials to cable head ends for the distinct commerce centers of the market? That's the problem with the 100 mile long, two state, three radio market, TV DMA that I live in. I can't afford to advertise on local OTA TV because I only work with customers in 20% of the DMA (or one of the three radio markets).
Now if Mobile-Pen was divided into three TV markets I could afford to put my ugly mug on TV and start making some of those bad ass redneck TV commercials most folks associate with Tampa!

 

[KTN Corp]

San Francisco and Sacramento. If there were towers on Mt. Diablo, with the 7 channel VHF TV setup and maximum FM frequency allocations, and no network affiliation duplications (deferring to S.F. O&Os), TVs and FMs would serve both S.F. and Sacramento.

 

[Poledo]

San Francisco and Sacramento. If there were towers on Mt. Diablo, with the 7 channel VHF TV setup and maximum FM frequency allocations, and no network affiliation duplications (deferring to S.F. O&Os), TVs and FMs would serve both S.F. and Sacramento.

How would this effect San Jose?

 

[nomadcowatbk]

Do any network affiliates in these absurdly large DMAs have a setup in place to pipe in different commercials to cable head ends for the distinct commerce centers of the market? That's the problem with the 100 mile long, two state, three radio market, TV DMA that I live in. I can't afford to advertise on local OTA TV because I only work with customers in 20% of the DMA (or one of the three radio markets).
Now if Mobile-Pen was divided into three TV markets I could afford to put my ugly mug on TV and start making some of those bad ass redneck TV commercials most folks associate with Tampa!

I guess they advertise on cable

 

[e-dawg]

San Francisco and Sacramento. If there were towers on Mt. Diablo, with the 7 channel VHF TV setup and maximum FM frequency allocations, and no network affiliation duplications (deferring to S.F. O&Os), TVs and FMs would serve both S.F. and Sacramento.

Unfortunately, the Berkeley/Oakland Hills blocked the signal for viewers for Oakland/East Bay and parts of South Bay. If Berkeley/Oakland Hills doesn't exists than we can put a signal on Mt. Diablo to cover San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Sacramento, Stockton and Modesto.

 

[ding12]

The most obvious example of two markets that should be one, is Washington, DC and Baltimore, MD. The two cities are about 35 air miles apart (not much further apart than Dallas and Fort Worth, which are part of a single market) and could easily be covered by a single group of signals from one transmitter site in Maryland halfway between the two along I-95. It's also pretty obvious who would get 3 of the big 4 network affiliations (4 would get NBC, 5 would be Fox, and 13 would be CBS for the combined market) and only ABC would be up for grabs...whoever sold his station to the Mouse would be the winner.

Another reason why it won't happen is because some of the broadcasters involved like Hearst, Gannett, Scripps, Sinclair etc. would get screwed in the process of merging Baltimore with Washington. These affiliate groups now have leverage with the big four networks, owning many stations in other cities. It's not like Bahakel and Fox, where Fox anyways owns so many of it's stations, and Bahakel isn't significant, so it doesn't matter if Bahakel is screwed.

If the station owners were more isolated and powerless like Bahakel, I think momentum for this process would be more likely, first initiated by Fox, then Comcast/NBC, and lastly ABC and CBS. Baltimore wouldn't like it, but eventually lose network affiliates essentially. Maybe one station like CBS 13 would still have it's news slightly more Baltimore oriented. The stations wouldn't broadcast halfway but would likely keep presence where the DC stations currently keep presence.

 

[rwells2265]

....with regard to those SNL delays, but unfortunately, too far from Memphis to watch it on channel 5.  Usually a "VCR alert" for me.  By the time WPSD started presenting it on time, no one cared about it any more! :

  

WPSD was one of the last stations to pick it up, if I recall.   We moved to Cape Girardeau in June of '78, and it was not carried at all ... I can't place exactly when they relented (with one-hour delay), but I know it was there by the first of 1979.   Again, it was St. Louis that carried the day for us!  

Off the point, if I turned the antenna to the south, WMC-TV [cue riverboat whistle] managed to make itself known about 40% of the time.   Oddly, the most reliable catch from Memphis was WHBQ 13.  

I miss that antenna, and that hill.   

Meanwhile, in Obion County, we had WTVF on cable there.

THAT gave me gashes in my head from all that scratching!!    I remember seeing that during our 1994 trip (my old college buddy lives in Union City).    Common sense would have it that CBS' two signals would be Memphis and Cape. 

You also mentioned all the jokes made about WBBJ .... I watched a little of it at the time, and was astonished at how amateurish the production values were.   Graphics were terrible.  

I was in college in Jonesboro, watching KAIT and we radio/TV majors regularly abused Channel 8 as a punch line.   Looking back, 8 wasn't *that* bad.   Not that GOOD, mind you, but WBBJ ca. 1994 looked worse than KAIT ca. 1987. (the year 8 was bought by Cosmos/Liberty).  

As for news coverage, since both KAIT and KFVS are now Raycom properties (and they're big on sharing stories), I imagine the Sikeston force field is even truer today -- anything south of there, they let KAIT and/or WMC's news crews take it.  

I remember staying in a very cheap motel in East St. Louis, IL in the early 1970's.  40 years later I distinctly remember the small B and W TV with the 1 ear antenna.  It was mid March and I got a perfectly clear Ch 12 from Cape G.  That must have been a killer signal.  Doubt it was tropo.

Definitely not tropo.   And it WAS a mean signal.   KFVS' tower (the world's tallest structure when built in 1960 - a record it didn't have for long, though) is located in north Cape Girardeau County, less than 100 miles from St. Louis.

--Russell  

 

[firepoint525]

Meanwhile, in Obion County, we had WTVF on cable there.

THAT gave me gashes in my head from all that scratching!! I remember seeing that during our 1994 trip (my old college buddy lives in Union City). Common sense would have it that CBS' two signals would be Memphis and Cape.

The reasoning given behind Nashville channel 5 being on our cable was that we needed at least one station from Nashville to provide legislative coverage from Capitol Hill. Made sense to me! Maybe because of that, channel 5 still provides quite a bit of weather coverage from (and for) northwest Tennessee. Nashville channel 4 might have also been okay on Obion/Weakley County cable systems, but their west-TN coverage seems to be more Jackson-oriented. Because of Nashville channel 5 being on our cable there, it became my favorite Nashville TV station for news, and I just kept my loyalty to channel 5 after I moved here. (Although that can be tough, since channel 4's lead meteorologist is also a west-TN native!)

As I recall, the only Memphis station that we had on cable was their channel 5. (Cue riverboat whistle, indeed!) But I suppose that that came in handy whenever WPSD got "preemption-happy."

 

[nomadcowatbk]

....with regard to those SNL delays, but unfortunately, too far from Memphis to watch it on channel 5. Usually a "VCR alert" for me. By the time WPSD started presenting it on time, no one cared about it any more! :

WPSD was one of the last stations to pick it up, if I recall. We moved to Cape Girardeau in June of '78, and it was not carried at all ... I can't place exactly when they relented (with one-hour delay), but I know it was there by the first of 1979. Again, it was St. Louis that carried the day for us!

Off the point, if I turned the antenna to the south, WMC-TV [cue riverboat whistle] managed to make itself known about 40% of the time. Oddly, the most reliable catch from Memphis was WHBQ 13.

I miss that antenna, and that hill.

Meanwhile, in Obion County, we had WTVF on cable there.

THAT gave me gashes in my head from all that scratching!! I remember seeing that during our 1994 trip (my old college buddy lives in Union City). Common sense would have it that CBS' two signals would be Memphis and Cape.

You also mentioned all the jokes made about WBBJ .... I watched a little of it at the time, and was astonished at how amateurish the production values were. Graphics were terrible.

I was in college in Jonesboro, watching KAIT and we radio/TV majors regularly abused Channel 8 as a punch line. Looking back, 8 wasn't *that* bad. Not that GOOD, mind you, but WBBJ ca. 1994 looked worse than KAIT ca. 1987. (the year 8 was bought by Cosmos/Liberty).

As for news coverage, since both KAIT and KFVS are now Raycom properties (and they're big on sharing stories), I imagine the Sikeston force field is even truer today -- anything south of there, they let KAIT and/or WMC's news crews take it.

I remember staying in a very cheap motel in East St. Louis, IL in the early 1970's. 40 years later I distinctly remember the small B and W TV with the 1 ear antenna. It was mid March and I got a perfectly clear Ch 12 from Cape G. That must have been a killer signal. Doubt it was tropo.

Definitely not tropo. And it WAS a mean signal. KFVS' tower (the world's tallest structure when built in 1960 - a record it didn't have for long, though) is located in north Cape Girardeau County, less than 100 miles from St. Louis.

--Russell

Would that rotor and hill even work in the DTV era?

 

[KeyTimes950]

If the Wheeling-Steubenville market is still a distinct DMA there is a good argument for merging it into
Pittsburgh (that area has lost a ton of population in the past 30-40 years)

Wheeling-Steubenville is still a distinct DMA, No. 158 in the country with 130,110 households says TVNewsCheck. Pittsburgh now is No. 23 with 1.166 million.

The argument has pros and cons. I'm not sure what you'd consider pros or cons, but some factors:

Steubenville advertises itself as a Pittsburgh suburb and the casinos of the West Virginia Northern Panhandle compete with The Meadows and Rivers Casino in Western Pennsylvania.

Cox is trying to sell its WTOV-9 (and WJAC_6 in Johnstown). Otherwise I could see a WPXI/WTOV combine of some sort that puts WTOV on other networks. (Cox is NBC on the primary channels in all three cities.)

The CW probably could retain both affiliates in the two markets, WPCW which actually transmits from the Laurel Mountains and still I believe has a Jeannette-Johnstown city-of-license combination (even if KDKA in Pittsburgh does program it) while in Wheeling-Steubenville there is WBWO, a cable-only outlet.

Pittsburgh stations do occasionally carry news stories from west of Wheeling and Steubenville, but it might be a hard sell to put the various Pittsburgh stations on cable west of those cities.

In short ... who knows?

 

[rwells2265]

Would that rotor and hill even work in the DTV era?

I'd say about as well as any other antenna ... which is to say, no.    ;D

Last time I was up there was 2006. When I rode past the old house, I didn't think to check and see if there was still an antenna.  Seriously, that was a very good location for watching TV. 

*********
While I'm thinking about that area: let me touch back on WSIL-TV.  Since 1967, they've had a satellite station in Poplar Bluff, Mo. (KPOB-TV 15)    The reason was to provide service to southeast Missouri.  But how could that be done from there with a flea-powered signal, near-translator level, even in the analog era?  I think 3 would have been much better off had they located that station in Cape or Sikeston, with higher wattage.  Poplar Bluff not only received a decent analog signal from KAIT in Jonesboro, but that station has long been on their cable system!  Heck, 15 might as well not exist over there. 

Oh well ... just one of those crazy questions that I got from the malnourished hamster powering my brain. 

--Russell

 

[Mr Tony]

Do any network affiliates in these absurdly large DMAs have a setup in place to pipe in different commercials to cable head ends for the distinct commerce centers of the market?

I guess it depends on the stations in the outer portion of said market.
If the rural areas are handled by translators then no. Its a passthrough of the "mother" station.

But if its a satellite station in some cases yes they can. A good example here is Minneapolis. The market runs from Iowa all the way to almost Canada. The southern part of the market relies on translator stations.
Central MN had 2 satellite stations.
KCCO (satellite of WCCO CBS)
KSAX (satellite of KSTP ABC)

Northern MN has KFTC (satellite of WFTC My) and KCCW (satellite station of KCCO....basically a full powered translator)
Both KCCO & KSAX had some different commercials than their Minneapolis counterpart. KSAX use to even have a 15 minute newscast that would be cut in during the 5,6 & 10 news. But now they are basically just satellite stations.
Also satellite has even furthered hindered it as they carry WCCO in the whole market

So while someone in Bemidji (200 miles away) can see a commercial for Luther Auto Group in Minneapolis, Bob's Auto in Bemidji no longer can be on KCCW

Some stations are smart and show commercials no matter where its from. In Duluth there is WDIO 10 (ABC) and in Hibbing (75 miles away) there is WIRT 13. WIRT is basically a full powered translator of WDIO. They is as "10/13" but its ironic that on cable in Duluth WDIO (10) is cable 13 and in Hibbing WIRT 13 is cable 10. You'll see commercials for Duluth businesses and from the Iron Range (Hibbing, Virginia, Grand Rapids) on the stations.

 

[mavtv]

If the Wheeling-Steubenville market is still a distinct DMA there is a good argument for merging it into
Pittsburgh (that area has lost a ton of population in the past 30-40 years)

Wheeling-Steubenville is still a distinct DMA, No. 158 in the country with 130,110 households says TVNewsCheck. Pittsburgh now is No. 23 with 1.166 million.

The argument has pros and cons. I'm not sure what you'd consider pros or cons, but some factors:

Steubenville advertises itself as a Pittsburgh suburb and the casinos of the West Virginia Northern Panhandle compete with The Meadows and Rivers Casino in Western Pennsylvania.

Cox is trying to sell its WTOV-9 (and WJAC_6 in Johnstown). Otherwise I could see a WPXI/WTOV combine of some sort that puts WTOV on other networks. (Cox is NBC on the primary channels in all three cities.)

The CW probably could retain both affiliates in the two markets, WPCW which actually transmits from the Laurel Mountains and still I believe has a Jeannette-Johnstown city-of-license combination (even if KDKA in Pittsburgh does program it) while in Wheeling-Steubenville there is WBWO, a cable-only outlet.

Pittsburgh stations do occasionally carry news stories from west of Wheeling and Steubenville, but it might be a hard sell to put the various Pittsburgh stations on cable west of those cities.

In short ... who knows?

WTOV despite being on digital VHF puts out a good singal and at one point I heard the talk of moving ch 9 into Pittsburgh but that was after a planned ch 8 for Pittsburgh went to johnstown instead.

As for the market being folded into Pittsburgh, they have only 2 full power stations, 2 stations WVTX-CA and WJPW-CD owned by WBGN 59 out of Pittsburgh, a mTV 2 station WSSS-LP owned by Abacus Television who owns WBYD-CA and WIIC-LP out of Pittsburgh and a repeater for West Virginia public media so in theory it could be done as other than WTRF (.1 cbs, .2 fox,.3 abc) and WTOV (.1 nbc, .2 me-tv) there are no other stations and since ch 9 will soon be owned by sinclair who owns WPGH and WPMY, they could very well merge the two markets.

 

[ding12]

What are CBS and Fox's position relative to their max permitted in ownership cap levels?