Finally - Spring book out today.

[Robert Bass]

And finally...THAT IS THE POINT. I have endured the "programmer" pov for years on this site, the CBS, CC, ABC...other owner group bashing from you guys who have NO CONCEPT how stations futures are determined.

I do not know what "pov" means, so I am not sure how to interpret the sentence.

Point of view.

R

 

[davideduardo]

I do not know what "pov" means, so I am not sure how to interpret the sentence.

Point of view.

Thanks.

 

[radioman921]

Your math is fuzzy, if you owned a station and had ratings that were double the #2 station and had a 1 power ratio, then you were a TERRIBLE manager. You should have added more sellers and gotten your power ratio to a 4 or 5. THAT is why Programmers should not run stations.

I am glad DE covered this because if I was manager in Dallas for CC and I had gotten KHKS to do a 4 or 5 power ratio, I am thinking that I would be getting a person call from the Mays family asking me to run all sales for the company. Talk about not having a clue. By the way, KRLD though it doesn't do as well as WBAP, it airs about 18-22 units an hour and probably does a 1.8-2.2 power ratio. Talk and Sports have the ability to air alot more commercials or sponsored segments without necessarily killing the programming. Just listen to the Ticket. Everything has a sponsor and the other factor is local.

 

[davideduardo]

Your math is fuzzy, if you owned a station and had ratings that were double the #2 station and had a 1 power ratio, then you were a TERRIBLE manager.

You do NOT understand power ratios. The power ratio is the relationship of an individual station's billing to the same station's market audience share.

A station with a 10 audience share that has 10% of the market billion has a 1:1 power ratio. A staiton with a 10 share that has 5% of the market billing has a 0.5:1 power ratio.

In Dallas, the top 4 stations in power ratio are all talk stations... because these stations can sell more time in each hour than music stations generally do. Other than the talk stations, all the stations with a significant share of audience have ratios between about 0.8 and 1.4 to 1. Nobody has a 5 ratio, nobody has a 4 ratio, nobody has a 3 ratio.

Depending on format, nearly all stations nationally fall in this range.

You should have added more sellers and gotten your power ratio to a 4 or 5. THAT is why Programmers should not run stations.

Do you realize what you are saying? I had (and the example I gave was not a station I owned but one I was GSM, among other things, for) around an 14 share and was getting a little over 15% of market revenue, in a market where at one point 77 stations made the book (Arbitron record, by the way). If I had a 5 power ratio, I would have been taking nearly 3/4 of all the billing in the market... to do that I would have had to sell for not twice the rate of the next station, but 10 times the rate. Do you think any client would pay 5 times the CPP of the rest of the market? They would have just bought around me.

There is no way to balance inventory, competitive rates and competitiveness and get much over a 1.5 power ratio with a music station and that would be with very focused demographic delivery in a salable demo with little spillage.

I am glad DE covered this because if I was manager in Dallas for CC and I had gotten KHKS to do a 4 or 5 power ratio, I am thinking that I would be getting a person call from the Mays family asking me to run all sales for the company.

You would be on the cover of Radio Ink and keynoting at the next RAB convention. Nobody has ever done such a thing, nor have they come close. KHKS does not even get a 1:1 power ratio, because of its young demos and spillage into teens, which is not really salable.

Talk about not having a clue. By the way, KRLD though it doesn't do as well as WBAP, it airs about 18-22 units an hour and probably does a 1.8-2.2 power ratio.

KRLD has the highest power ratio in the market, and is the only station over a two. They have more inventory, and have had ratings declines that make the power ratio high. Often, stations that have just fallend badly in ratings have high power ratios, but it does not last. WBAP is a more normal 1.5 ratio, and is relatively stable.

Again: Power ratio is the revenue delivery expressed as a percentage of ratings (share) delivery.

 

[radioman921]

I hope your realize I copied a previous qoute. We are in agreement DE. (The quote on Fuzy math)

 

[davideduardo]

I hope your realize I copied a previous qoute. We are in agreement DE. (The quote on Fuzy math)

I now see that.... if you don't want to mess with the boxing of quotes, maybe you can use color to show quotes.

 

[Talktalk]

you can pick and choose the points you like and ignore the rest. You can also twist a story any way you like, but DE, you are the one who said you owned a station with DOUBLE the ratings of the number 2 station. If that was the case, you SHOULD have done what you could to garner 70% of the markets ad dollars, you could make the case that you deserved it.

Tell me, what markets where YOU could own a station has 120 stations in the market? What market in the country has 120 stations?

I never said HKS should have a 4 or 5 power ratio, they don't have double the ratings of the number 2 station. This market is far more compressed. The ticket makes a higher power ratio in spite of their higher numbers because they creativly sell their station. And, how can you say that they get sports marketing dollars, they have had high power ratios for years, long before the Cowboy deal, and they will be better off without it. The deal with the cowboys is a bad one where the Cowboys get most of the revenue, not the station.

 

[Talktalk]

Radioman- post the quote, and you will see that, like I told DE, there is no reference to HKS, or Dallas. Another thing, I am talking about power ratios, doesn't matter how you get there. If you can run 59 minutes of commercials and 1 minute of programming...and the ratings still follow, you have entertained regardless of what the content is...and before you nancies freak out, I am not suggesting this in reality...I said if, it is a hypothetical.

My point is simple, and it is this. Programmers don't have a clue what makes people listen anymore. So, everyone bashes the marketplace and doesn't address the real issue. Give p1's a unique product, like a ticket or even an rld and revenue will follow, THAT is what wins...not ratings.

This is why it makes me crazy when people post about getting rid of 105.3 in favor of smooth jazz, first, prove it can generate revenue and ratings just don't matter anymore.

 

[davideduardo]

you can pick and choose the points you like and ignore the rest. You can also twist a story any way you like, but DE, you are the one who said you owned a station with DOUBLE the ratings of the number 2 station. If that was the case, you SHOULD have done what you could to garner 70% of the markets ad dollars, you could make the case that you deserved it.

First, as I have said twice before, the Top 15 market station where we had an average 14 share was not a facility I owned. I was GSM, Corporate Senior VP and in house Program Consultant.

Ad agencies (and that market was about 95% agency business) buy based on the rate vs. the delivery of audience in a campaign's target demographic. The way it works is that the agency determines a desired cost per ratings point, a total point goal, and a reach goal for the campaign. So, what the agency does is establish a value per listener that it enforces on all stations that want to get on the buy. So if a station has 0.5 rating points in the demo, they are paid 25% of what a station with two ratings points gets.

In other words, the playing field is nearly level. Stations that get high power ratios do so for one of two reasions: they have more inventory (news and talk) or they have audience concentrated in the demographic groups that are most called for by agencies. Country and AC get better ratios than CHR, and Black and Hispanic get lower ratios than all of these... because of the demographic delivery and the number of buys that come up for the audience each station delivers.

Back to the station I ran. We got twice the rate of the #2 station, but both of us got the same cost per point If our CPP would have been higher, then the agencies would have bought around us... which is what they do when stations can not meet the ofgfered costs.

Tell me, what markets where YOU could own a station has 120 stations in the market? What market in the country has 120 stations?

Market 13, Puerto Rico. Over 120 stations, Arbitron meassured for nearly 10 years.

I never said HKS should have a 4 or 5 power ratio, they don't have double the ratings of the number 2 station.

Power ratios are based on the relationship of your share of audience to the share of revenue you garner from those numbers. A station with a 5 share should get 5% of the billing, or a 1 power ratio. Of course, a station with a 2.5 share can also get a 1 power ratio by getting 2.5% of market billing.

The relationship of one station to another in ratings has zero to do with power ratio. It is the relationship of each station's market share of audience with its market share of revenue.

This market is far more compressed. The ticket makes a higher power ratio in spite of their higher numbers because they creativly sell their station.

No, that is not so. The ticket gets a high ratio because it delivers a very salable demo, with little spillage, which ad agencies want. It is enhanced by the fact that they get sports marketing dollars that do not come out of general market ad budgets, but out of marketing budgets.

And, how can you say that they get sports marketing dollars, they have had high power ratios for years, long before the Cowboy deal, and they will be better off without it.

Get back to us when you understand what sports marketing dollars are.

The deal with the cowboys is a bad one where the Cowboys get most of the revenue, not the station.

That's pretty much normal for play by play. The station does it for the listener image enhancement and the ancillary sales opportunities. It's the same reason why supermarkets put things on sale, called "loss leaders" where they make no money yet draw traffic into the store. Or why Toys 'r Us for 3 decades sold Pampers at a loss just to build traffric...

 

[jd]

I don't really disagree with your previous post, and hopefully it will provide some people with a better understanding of the way things really work. But there is one thing...

Market 13, Puerto Rico. Over 120 stations, Arbitron meassured for nearly 10 years.

There are over 120 stations in Puerto Rico now, but I'm not sure there were that many when you worked there. Regardless, you've got to admit that it's a unusual market, since it encompasses the entire island. AM stations there are limited by poor ground conductivity and the highest level for FM's is Class B, which in Puerto Rico means no more than 50,000 watts ERP at a maximum height of 472 meters (1549 feet) or the equivalent. That's a lot of land to cover, and with the mountainous terrain is there any single station that could claim to have "full market coverage"? Or, regardless of the distances involved, are you considering Ponce, Mayaguez and Aguadilla to be part of Greater San Juan? Sorry, but that's like including Waco and Wichita Falls stations in a "station count" for the Dallas/Fort Worth market. As markets go, Puerto Rico is an anomaly.

 

[little1]

And for those of you who don't get what DE means by spillage think of it this way-

The ticket is something like 90% (plus) males, 25-54. If that's your target demo, you basically have a 90% hit rate.

Buy KZPS (which is like 60/40), or Jack (50/50) and you're hit rate is a lot lower...

If an advertiser buys KZPS instead of the Ticket, they're 'wasting' 40% of their budget on people not in their target. So as long as KTCk's rates aren't prohibitively higher, the advertiser gets more bang for their buck...

ANd it's exactly the same for women. KVIL still makes a pretty penny by having nothing but women 25-54...

 

[davideduardo]

I'm not sure this is a good example. There are over 120 stations in Puerto Rico now, but I'm not sure there were that many when you worked there.

There are 126 stations in Puerto Rico now. When I ran Cadena Salsoul, there were, maybe, 121 or 122. I really can not remember, but there have only been 4 to 5 new stations in the last 20 years and a couple of AMs have gone silent and are now apparently unlicensed. I was at that operation as GSM from 1985 to 1992, and as consultant through 2005. We were #1 for 20 years, which is an FM record for a top 50 market.

Regardless, you've got to admit that it's a unusual market, since it encompasses the entire island. AM stations there are limited by poor ground conductivity and the highest level for FM's is Class B, which in Puerto Rico means no more than 50,000 watts ERP at a maximum height of 472 meters (1549 feet) or the equivalent. That's a lot of land to cover, and with the mountainous terrain is there any single station that could claim to have "full market coverage"? Or, regardless of the distances involved, are you considering Ponce, Mayaguez and Aguadilla to be part of Greater San Juan?

Puerto Rico has been a single media market, back to the days of the beginning of TV where all originations were in San Juan and repeated on additional stations in other parts of the Island. Radio requires multiple stations for complete coverage. The major FMs are trios of B's, and the two big AM networks are 3 and 5 stations each. Advertisers (there were 144 ad agencies on my list back 15 years ago) buy the entire island, and there is very little revenue for stations with incomplete coverage. Some FMs seem to have only one transmitter, but have boosters all over the place, as many Bs have theoretical full Island coverage assuming no terrain blockage... of course, PR is enormously mountainous, save a narrow strip around the coast.

Arbitron considers PR to be one market and does not issue separate reports for any geographical subset, although one can pull them out in Maximiser.

And the PR market (MSA) holds the record for most stations to make the book... 77 a couple of years ago.

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

He also ran Radio Free Europe,and served as the on Board entertainment director of the S.S. Hope :-\

 

[davideduardo]

He also ran Radio Free Europe,and served as the on Board entertainment director of the S.S. Hope :-\

As usual, you have contributed nothing to the thread except invective and what can only be called "70's DJ humor."

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

Coming from a person who doesn't possess any,laden with an over blown ego,you have given me a great compliment. ;D

 

[longtimelistener]

Hey, everybody knows if you can make it in Puerto Rico you have arrived!

 

[little1]

If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, it's up to you San Juan Pee Are (bum bum bum de bum)

 

[BBontheRadio]

KVIL still makes a pretty penny by having nothing but women 25-54...

"How much for the women? Your women. I want to buy your women." -- Jake Blues, The Blues Brothers

 

[Talktalk]

DE, you might want to talk a step back, your ignorance is showing. And, you have proven that you have absolutely NO CONCEPT of advertising sales as it relates to radio.

1. advertising agencies do not set market CPP, the market sets it. They request a certain CPP in the hopes that lesser rated stations will charge lower rates and bring in the high priced stations...

2. Inventory and running more units has zero bearing on CPP or market rates. It simply allows stations to take more advertising, often lowering the market CPP.

3. why don't you give the folks at arbitron a call...oh wait, you probably hired them when you and Marconi created radio....or did Marconi steal the idea from you?

4. You are the one, my friend, with no concept of Sports Marketing deals, if you don't believe me, call the Cowboys and ask them how it works, oh wait you probably hired them when you created the National Football League...

and as far as all the other stuff you are wrong about...well, I am just tired of typing.

AND ON THE SEVENTH DAY, DAVID EDWARDO RESTED...

 

[rockroll0617]

Please be nice. I've seen David's posts on many other boards and
his opinion is always a very informed one. No need to get snotty.
;D