Finally - Spring book out today.

[Talktalk]

shhhhhh, go sit back down and watch your cartoons, the grown ups are talking.

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

D.E was also the lead dancer on the old Mickey Mouse Club.

 

[longtimelistener]

If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, it's up to you San Juan Pee Are (bum bum bum de bum)

It's a toddling town.

 

[davideduardo]

DE, you might want to talk a step back, your ignorance is showing. And, you have proven that you have absolutely NO CONCEPT of advertising sales as it relates to radio.

1. advertising agencies do not set market CPP, the market sets it. They request a certain CPP in the hopes that lesser rated stations will charge lower rates and bring in the high priced stations...

CPP is set by a variety of factors.

For those not familiar with abbreviations, CPP means "cost per point" or the value a media buyer assigns in each market to a rating point. A point, in turn, is listening by 1% of the market universe for the demographic group (age, sex, ethnicity, etc.) the buyer seeks. A buyer may want Women 25-44 and looks at ratings for the desired dayparts to determine how many points each station has.

First, the number of people a rating point represents varies by market. One point in 12+ in New York will be about 160,000 persons. One point in El Paso might be 6,000 persons. So the buyer will pay, approximately, 25 times more for the point in New York than in the smaller market. In other words, the price per point is determined by the market population and, to an extent, the collective negotiating skills of all the eligable stations in each market. But the cost per target listener is very close to being the same over every market... it's just that the larger markets have "fatter" point values in persons. Remember, share, rating and AQH persons are the same, expressed in three different ways: percent of radio listeners listening to a station, percent of the universe (listeners and non-listeners) listening to a station, and the actual number of persons listening on average as represented by share or rating.

Second, agencies have a CPP goal for each market based on cost per listener. When they ask for rates, they generally tell the station what is expected. Stations that come in at the CPP or add value (bonus spots, remotes, promotions) are bought. No matter what the sales situation, high priced stations are sometimes bought around, and low priced stations are often added. However, CPP alone is not the only factor: reach is part of any multi-station agency buy. When stations are selected, the set or array is run for unduplicated cume reach, and if some stations add very little reach, they may not be bought no matter what the rate concessions. And others, which add considerable reach extension, are put on so that the optimum reach and frequency are achieved. In some cases, stations get lower numbers of spots on the buy and others more to optimize reach and frequency.

2. Inventory and running more units has zero bearing on CPP or market rates. It simply allows stations to take more advertising, often lowering the market CPP.

I never said that inventory changed CPP or rates. Inventory on news talk stations is generally higher, which in part makes up for the fact that much of those stations audiences is in 55+, and not particularly salable. So those stations, on a 35-54 buy, for example, have to price against 35-54, not 12+ delivery, and if the rate is competitive they get bought. Generally, this means a lower rate than more efficient deliverers of the target, but by running more spots, they can bill well.

3. why don't you give the folks at arbitron a call...oh wait, you probably hired them when you and Marconi created radio....or did Marconi steal the idea from you?

I have been visiting and calling Arbitron since 1970 when I did my first diary review in Beltsville. Call Owen Charlebois or Dr. Ed Cohen and ask who I am. I actually did seminars for Arbitron in Mexico on repeated occasions.

4. You are the one, my friend, with no concept of Sports Marketing deals, if you don't believe me, call the Cowboys and ask them how it works, oh wait you probably hired them when you created the National Football League...

Sports marketing dollars come from clients, not teams. Budweiser may have a radio budget and a sports marketing budget. Sports stations can get pieces of each.


... at least, mercifully, you have given up on insisting that a station with a 14 share is underperforming if it does not get 70% of market billing.

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

D.E., before you make the Board Monkey take yet another thread outside, just a nugget of sage wisdom? Be honest, your opinions SOMETIMES gets lost with your emotionalism. You get in your boat of temperament and demand to take many people in here for a slalom ride they won't soon forget. Before you do tricks with your radio acumen, count to 10, hang out with Prince Valium or something... you got game, we get it already, but we would rather get it with floaties not head first in the deep end.

And by the way, PLEX has got more than cheap 70s humor. Just ask Bass or Shannon. ;D It's OK, there is enough blog to go around.

 

[davideduardo]

D.E., before you make the Board Monkey take yet another thread outside, just a nugget of sage wisdom? Be honest, your opinions SOMETIMES gets lost with your emotionalism.

In this case, Mr. Monkey is simply wrong. He started with the contention that high rated stations should have higher power ratios than low rated ones, and accused me of mis-management for having a top rated station that did not have 5 times the revenue share versus its audience share. Of course, Top Rated KHKS, one of the examples he is fond of, has a 0.9 power ratio. He does not understand that a power ratio is a measurement of a single station's ability to convert audience share into revenue share.

Now, he is off in wonderland on his CPP assertions and fails to understand that CPP is a metric and is used with other metrics agencies use to plan buys.

Neither of these two points involves opinion; power ratios are simple math. CPPs are the same thing... math based on desired cost goals at an agency vs. the delivery in the target demo as calculated by the agency.

There is no emotion here.

In fact, this CPP aspect of the thread should get into the interesting things that will be occuring when the PPM arrives in Dallas and the station with a 5 share and 1.4 rating sudenly is the station with the 5 share and the 0.9 rating. Will agencies recognize that listenin has not change, but is better measured, or will they ask for a 40% reduction in rate?

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

: Veritas. What you just said went over his head..as per usual.Thanks for the Kudos. D.E. reminds of the late Phil Hartman's Character:
"The Anal Retentive"Chef, mixed it with a little Oscar Wilde who felt he was above the masses.

 

[Robert Bass]

And by the way, PLEX has got more than cheap 70s humor. Just ask Bass or Shannon. ;D It's OK, there is enough blog to go around.

He does... ??? Wow, I had no idea!




















;D


R

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

It stunned me too..but hey what the hell? ;D

 

[Talktalk]

DE, didn't read your last post, stopped caring a while ago and it was REALLY long. I will say this and then I am hoping this thread will die, feel free to reply, I might read and giggle, but that is it, you seem to have a strong command for programming, you should focus your energies there....and, I will rarely, if ever question your diatribes and lectures. However, you have no concept of the sales enviornment, either in spot or on the marketing side of revenue generation. And today, stations cannot survive on ratings without revenue, but they can survive with revenue and no ratings....This is not the 70's...and it certainly is not Puerto Rico.

 

[davideduardo]

: Veritas. What you just said went over his head..as per usual.Thanks for the Kudos. D.E. reminds of the late Phil Hartman's Character:
"The Anal Retentive"Chef, mixed it with a little Oscar Wilde who felt he was above the masses.

Of course, you ignored the suggestion to discuss what will happen when CPPs increase 40% or so on the same buy when the PPM hets Dallas next year... Philadelphia revenue is off in double digits, and PUR is off by over 40% following PPM.

 

[davideduardo]

However, you have no concept of the sales enviornment, either in spot or on the marketing side of revenue generation.

I suppose that is why I registered a decade with average annual sales increases of 28% in market 13. And why every time I am in LA, I am asked to go on sales calls. But you are the one who thinks a 14 share station should get a 70% revenue share, so what would I know. The fact is, your statements on sales are unrealistic and don't reflect the current sales environment or any one of the past.

And today, stations cannot survive on ratings without revenue, but they can survive with revenue and no ratings....This is not the 70's...and it certainly is not Puerto Rico.

You know, agencies have been buying radio since the 20's. They pretty much have it down pat. They figured out that you pay for listeners in proportion to how many there are, and there is a pretty clear correlation of ratings and revenue with the caveat of "some listeners are more valuable than other listeners" to twist Orwell a bit. Stations with revenue and no or low ratings in metros are generally those that do not have viable signals and do brokered, religious or niche ethnic programming.

And it works the same way in Dallas or Puerto Rico or Budapest.

 

[Robert Bass]

: Veritas. What you just said went over his head..as per usual.Thanks for the Kudos. D.E. reminds of the late Phil Hartman's Character:
"The Anal Retentive"Chef, mixed it with a little Oscar Wilde who felt he was above the masses.

Of course, you ignored the suggestion to discuss what will happen when CPPs increase 40% or so on the same buy when the PPM hets Dallas next year... Philadelphia revenue is off in double digits, and PUR is off by over 40% following PPM.

Just for the record, I am personally not a believer in PPM "at this time". It is too new and has had some indications of flaws. When, and if, it has been around in this market after 2 or 3 years, I'd be willing to give it credit.

The preceeding is MY OPINION ONLY.

R

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

TalkTalk..now you've done it. D.E. 's long diatribes are of tremendous value. Just ask any Medical professional working at Sleep Disorder clinics nationwide. Its mandatory reading for patients with chronic insomnia. The good news,the overnight stays have been cut in half and the patient stays reduced to one hour!!
David by the way will be in Albuquerque,New Mexico this fall for the Balloon Festival. He has been asked to use his long winded skill to inflate the balloons.

 

[davideduardo]

Just for the record, I am personally not a believer in PPM "at this time".It is too new and has had some indications of flaws.

Robert, just two thoughts here.

First, the PPM is not new. It has been in development for about 12 or 13 years. It has been in actual use for about 6 years (tests in England, Philly and Houston for 1, 2 and 2 years respectively.) It has been in use for over a year in the Francophone markets in Canada's BBM. And it is now the only ratings method in Houston and Philadelphia. New York starts in 5 weeks, and Dallas comes next year.

The only "flaws" are the same as with the diary... response rates. In the diary, it is in how many return the little booklets. In the PPM, it is getting the panel to carry the meter every day.

When, and if, it has been around in this market after 2 or 3 years, I'd be willing to give it credit.

It will be in use, in Dallas, replacing the diary, in July of next year. That's less than 11 months.

The preceeding is MY OPINION ONLY.

It's too bad the diary and PPM could not run in parallel for a while in each market... but stations cound never afford that, since the PPM is already 60% more expensive than the diary survey. But the reality is that advertisers who buy by ratings will be using it immediately. And in Philly and Houston, agencies are using the PPM results to drive rates down, dramatically.

 

[Robert Bass]

Wow... had no idea the PPM had been around that long!

And I agree with you about running PPM and the present system simultaniously, it should be done for at least a couple of years.

R

 

[radioman921]

About the PPM in Houston DE, looking at Hispanic media and of course some stations like Univision has top stations and Houston is a pretty big Hispanic market, how do you see the revenues affected with say a market that has about 8%-10% Hispanic. Too many agencies for the longest time even in major markets have short changed Hispanic media. I would say only recently has this begun to change in the major markets where the stations are in the top ten or even top 5 or closer.

 

[davideduardo]

About the PPM in Houston DE, looking at Hispanic media and of course some stations like Univision has top stations and Houston is a pretty big Hispanic market, how do you see the revenues affected with say a market that has about 8%-10% Hispanic. Too many agencies for the longest time even in major markets have short changed Hispanic media. I would say only recently has this begun to change in the major markets where the stations are in the top ten or even top 5 or closer.

So far, the PPM impacts revenue so severely in the two initial markets (yeah, we have to question whether it is the PPM or just radio conditions in general) that all stations are off in revenue.

The PPM shows over a third less listening per person per week in the market. In other words, if Houston listening was 19 hours and 15 minutes per person per week, the PPM shows under 12 hours per person. What this means is that the station that had a 5 share in the diary and kept the 5 in the PPM, has a rating that went from a 1.4 to a 1.0 or 0.9. So when the buyer looks at their cost per point, they seed the points on EVERY station going down, and demands lower rates.

This explains why there are reports of near-double-digit declines in market revenues in Philly... and apparently Houston, as a market, is way off.

In Housont, in recent years, KLTN has been the top biller and has had a power ratio above a 1, so it has not been perceived as undervalued in the market; with one out of every seven Americans of Hispanic descent, the market is now gedtting closer to parity vauation by buyers.

 

[Talktalk]

Can't help myself. DE keeps stepping in it and I must clarify.

DE, how can you make a claim that PPM is the cause for revenue losses, you have no back up, zero, nothing. Look at the top 10 markets around the country and you will find that revenue is down. That is not conjecture...that is fact

Also, you say Cost Per Points will go down, actually, they go up and planners plan for fewer points in the market. As evidenced by the Boston PPM TV test in 2001. The first Arbitron PPM tests were in Wilmington and they found similar patterns to the Nielsen PPM.

So, once again, you don't understand the revenue side of the business. Have a nice day.

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

FINALLY!!SOMEONE WHO REALLY UNDERSTANDS RADIO REVENUE WITHOUT THE OVER STUFFED EGO! Ty Talk-Talk.