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Format Flip?

pbf1 said:
uh....mentioned BISMARCK, not Fargo. 200 miles west.

As for Eau Claire, The Moose is tied for 3rd, not in 11th.

It's tied for 3rd 12+, but 11th 25-54. And while the other #3 bills $1.8 million, the Moose barely clears $400 k.

And sorry, I hit Fargo first because it is larger. Bismark... market 275, with 13 commercial stations, 9 on FM. KBMR is 11th in 25-54. And it bills less than $30 k a month, a big chunk of which goes for the electric bill.
 
DavidEduardo said:
. Bismark... market 275, with 13 commercial stations, 9 on FM. KBMR is 11th in 25-54. And it bills less than $30 k a month, a big chunk of which goes for the electric bill.


Given that Miller Kaplan hasn't done BismarCk in quite some time, I'd be interested to know your source on that billing.
 
pbf1 said:
DavidEduardo said:
. Bismark... market 275, with 13 commercial stations, 9 on FM. KBMR is 11th in 25-54. And it bills less than $30 k a month, a big chunk of which goes for the electric bill.


Given that Miller Kaplan hasn't done BismarCk in quite some time, I'd be interested to know your source on that billing.

http://www.bia.com/data_mapro.asp
 
DavidEduardo said:
LibertyNT said:
KKUS in Tyler-Longview does quite well for itself as A Classic Country Station.
I'd imagine KWKH in Shreveport has to do well, or else they would have nuked it I'm sure.
KYKX in San Antonio probably does alright too.

KKYX has an average 0.9 12+, and is 28th in 25-54.
KWKH is 17th overall, but 20th in 25-54. It's way down at 15th in billings.

I think both of those do more to show that music on AM does not work, not that country gold does not work in a strong country market.

KKUS does do OK, 8th 12+, but it is ranked lower in billing. But, as you say, for a class A, that's pretty good!

Hold on here KKUS is a 50,000 watt station, and the midday show "Tom Perryman" is the number one show in East Texas, and for billing if there were as many sales people on the station as there are on the other Access.1 stations it would out bill KYKX which is a full 100kw Class C0. KKUS is a class C2 get your facts straight and it has 2 AM translators class B KFRO and class D KCUL to extend its contour. KTHT in Cleveland, TX is a Houston rimshot that is doing ok in Houston but ratings wise is doing very well in Beaumont.

To say that KUSS has to do contemporary to keep up underminds the whole thought here which is to do something different and carve out a niche to itself so that it can compete by doing something different! Country music goes through cycles nationally where the music is very very popular then it tanks, right now it is not nearly as popular as it was in the "Garth Brooks/Shania Twain era". Country is in a slump right now. there are many markets where you can have 2 country stations and have them do well Houston is an example of that so is Nashville, but San Diego is not a good market to do 2 country stations! Unless one is totally different from the other! If you offer the exact same thing in the exact same way the herritage station will always win!!
 
pbf1 said:
DavidEduardo said:
It's not exactly making money, either.


Actually, David, it is. Not sure why you think it's not.

It can only be making money based on a less than equal alocation of cluster overhead. At its billing level, it's got to be a break even at best. The average full size McDonalds grosses several times as much.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Actually, David, it is. Not sure why you think it's not.

It can only be making money based on a less than equal alocation of cluster overhead. At its billing level, it's got to be a break even at best. The average full size McDonalds grosses several times as much.
[/quote]

It's profitable on its own.
 
Is KBMR profitable because of revenue from farm programming? That can be a VERY good source of income. And it wouldn't matter where it places 12+ or 25-54 as long as it gets the right farm/ranch audience.
 
600kogo said:
KKUS does do OK, 8th 12+, but it is ranked lower in billing. But, as you say, for a class A, that's pretty good!

Hold on here KKUS is a 50,000 watt station, and the midday show "Tom Perryman" is the number one show in East Texas, and for billing if there were as many sales people on the station as there are on the other Access.1 stations it would out bill KYKX which is a full 100kw Class C0.[/quote]

Sorry, I misinterpreted "Liberty"'s statement that said the station was "A" as meaning it was a class A.

And since the station bills so much less than the leading country station, I took the "A" comment as being one of the reasons the station has lower billing.

KKUS is a class C2 get your facts straight

As I said, I was mislead by the capital "A" in the post before, and your data is, of course correct. In any case, the ratings do not change and the billings don't change.

and it has 2 AM translators class B KFRO and class D KCUL to extend its contour.

Those are not translators, they are full freestanding facilities run as simulcast partners. In any case, the numbers reported for KKUS include KFRO and KCUL because the owner selected total line reporting with Arbitron. In any case, KCUL is not home to the metro, and both it and KFRO are AMs, unlikely to have much of a contribution to ratings.

KKUS does not put a 64 dbu over two of the three counties in the metro, and KNUE puts a 64 over twice as many people. But the real issue is that KKUS is 12th in 25-54, while KNUE is 4th and KYKX is 8th... both well ahead in sales demos. Even if ratings don't drive most retail sales, 25-54 does. Whether you measure them in a survey or at the cash register, that's where advertisers see response.


KTHT in Cleveland, TX is a Houston rimshot that is doing ok in Houston but ratings wise is doing very well in Beaumont.

It's 24th in 25-54 in Houston, and 8th in Beaumont, behind two other Beaumont country stations, KAYD and KYKR.

To say that KUSS has to do contemporary to keep up underminds the whole thought here which is to do something different and carve out a niche to itself so that it can compete by doing something different!

Nobody said they had to change. The question was whether any classic or traditional country station was doing well anywhere, and whether the format would serve Clear Channel better in San Diego. The best we have come up with is a couple of less than top ranked station in below-200 ranked markets in the northern plains and a mid-range ratings performer market 144 with low billings and an attempted rimshot from Beaumont that is third out of three in its home market.

In these cases, the classic country station does better by comparison as there are two contemporary country stations fragging that segment... something in San Diego would not apply. If we average the country shares, we see that classic country takes around a quarter of the 12+ shares, but only about 10% of the 25-54. That would mean the format is a poor option in SD, where there is less of a country lifestyle and feel to the market.

there are many markets where you can have 2 country stations and have them do well Houston is an example of that so is Nashville, but San Diego is not a good market to do 2 country stations! Unless one is totally different from the other! If you offer the exact same thing in the exact same way the herritage station will always win!!

But what good is it to have KSON at a 4 share and KUSS at a 0.8? Right now, KSON averages just below a 3 25-54, and KUSS around a 1.5. But KSON is around 18th to 20th in the demo... not the kind of rank that transactional buys will include, and SD is a market where transactional buys are very significant. So, given the scant evidence of classic country working really well anyplace comparable to San Diego, it would seem that such a format is not a viable alternative for KUSS... which answers the orginal question.
 
jh said:
Is KBMR profitable because of revenue from farm programming? That can be a VERY good source of income. And it wouldn't matter where it places 12+ or 25-54 as long as it gets the right farm/ranch audience.

It bills around $25 k a month... whatever it comes from.

The average McDonalds, to put things in perspective, grosses nearly $2 million a year... about 6 times the KBMR gross. Yeah, margins are different but keep in mind that during the period from the 60's to the early 90's when FCC or NAB data was available, near half of all US stations only broke even or lost money.

There have been lots of things written about the closing of farm networks, reduction in farm programming, etc. since farmers get their critical data increasingly from the Internet, not radio.
 
pbf1 said:
DavidEduardo said:
Actually, David, it is. Not sure why you think it's not.

It can only be making money based on a less than equal alocation of cluster overhead. At its billing level, it's got to be a break even at best. The average full size McDonalds grosses several times as much.

It's profitable on its own.
[/quote]

Assuming the average per kwh rate, the average for newer 10 kw transmitters, heating, A/C, tower lights, the station is in the $2 k to $3 k range on electric power alone.

That would explain why the CP for 50 kw day, 5kw night did not materialize:

http://www.davidgleason.com/Archive BC-YB/80s-OCR-YB/BC-YB-1988-B&W-OCR-Page-289.pdf#search="kbmr"

Imagine a $10 k a month power bill for an AM station in a market with 13 commercial stations and only around $6 million in total gross revenue!

In any case, that station's 25-54 ratings and its lackluster billings in a market where country prospers goes to show that classic country would not work.
 
Ag $$.

Hasn't been any talk of 50kW for at least six years.

Your McDonald's analogy, David, is worthless in a metro of about 90,000. And I'd rather be in radio than fast food. Do what you wish. Oh, and don't believe everything you read. (Is your power bill calculation keeping the thing on for 24 hours? It's only on for eight. And we're not paying California electric rates here.)

And the station is a very steady performer, targeting older than 25-54.

I'm done with this discussion. Nobody else here is that interested in debating what a just-about-a-daytimer in North Dakota bills, targets, or anything else. If they do, they can PM me.

I've been an avid reader off and on for years here, David, and have always enjoyed your insight, and have found you to be one of the more learned people here.

Have a nice day.
 
pbf1 said:

All $300 k a year of them?

Hasn't been any talk of 50kW for at least six years.

That's my point... the market can't sustain a 50 kw AM.

Your McDonald's analogy, David, is worthless in a metro of about 90,000.

Actually, it is 109,000. It's 92,000 12+.

And the McDonalds reference is to point out that a radio station billing $300 k is very small business, indeed. The average US station bills three times that, too.

And I'd rather be in radio than fast food.

Fast food's business model will continue to work for the forseeable future. Radio's current model of transmitters and towers is just about over unless expanded to the delivery systems real people use. Of course, the future for a daytime AM....

Oh, and don't believe everything you read. (Is your power bill calculation keeping the thing on for 24 hours? It's only on for eight. And we're not paying California electric rates here.)

I'm using the commercial rates from ND business promotional data and government reports. The commercial rates last year in the state were just under ten cents a kwh, up about 11% from the previous year. And I'm averaging 12 hours of daylight a day, which is the rule anywhere on this planet... BismarCk is on Earth, isn't it?

And the station is a very steady performer, targeting older than 25-54.

It's a 55+ radio station, and most advertisers have determined that this audience does not ring the cash register. That's why it is outbilled by every FM except KNDR.

I'm done with this discussion. Nobody else here is that interested in debating what a just-about-a-daytimer in North Dakota bills, targets, or anything else.

The discussion shows that the format leans very old, does not bill well, and lags contemporary country station shares in every case. Thus, the idea that it would be a good idea for Clear in SD fails, particularly since SD is a highly transactional market where nobody buys 55+.
 
DavidEduardo said:
The discussion shows that the format leans very old, does not bill well, and lags contemporary country station shares in every case. Thus, the idea that it would be a good idea for Clear in SD fails, particularly since SD is a highly transactional market where nobody buys 55+.

The only classic country stations that seem to work are AMs in rural areas that have been country since the 60s or 70s and make most of their money from farm agency buys, like KWMT, Ft. Dodge, IA. Although KWMT isn't just classic country as they still play all the currents, their oldies just go back to the 60s.

Classic country might also work as a cluster-mate to the dominate country in a market to keep someone else from going country.

But I don't think country really works without the currents. There have been a lot of attempts over the years to do country "differently"... oldies, young country, country/rock hybrids, etc. None of them have lasted long.
 
DavidEduardo said:
There have been lots of things written about the closing of farm networks, reduction in farm programming, etc. since farmers get their critical data increasingly from the Internet, not radio.

True, but they still listen to the radio and it's still an effective way for advertisers to reach farmers. They're now getting that information from their cellphone, but they still like to hear the market trends mentioned on the radio.
 
This thread was supposed to be about a format flip that was suggested (which did not happen, btw). Somehow, it became a thread about 95.7. Completely off topic...
 
Agreed, and there hasn't been any follow up on SDRadio.net regarding this tease for a format flip.

Is this a retracted suggestion?
 
Radio3787 said:
Agreed, and there hasn't been any follow up on SDRadio.net regarding this tease for a format flip.

Is this a retracted suggestion?

Stay Tuned Folks.
 
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