Format holes in LA

[michael hagerty]

Classic Country would probably be pretty popular. Saul has been sprinkling some older country in with what is passing for Country these days, but, it is by no means Classic...... it's what we were listening to 5 years ago, 10 if we're lucky. He is doing a much better job than Cook. There are a lotta folks who want to hear 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's country.

The trouble with Classic Country is that, until the 80s or later, Country skewed old as a format. When an Oldies station plays a 35 year old record, they're reaching a 50 year old who heard it on Top 40 or AOR at age 15. A 35 year old Country record is going to reach a listener between 70 and 99 who heard it on a Country station between the ages of 35 and 64.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

Several folks have pointed out that KKGO's biggest problem within LA County is that their audience skews 35-49 and 35-64, with rather abysmal 18-49 numbers compared to JACK-FM or My104.3; I'm not sure if they have the same problem in OC, but someone else will chime in with those numbers, I hope!

That's another reason why I don't tghink a classic country station would have a shot at reaching the 2.0 ratings threshhold which ensures viability in this market.

 

[davideduardo]

Several folks have pointed out that KKGO's biggest problem within LA County is that their audience skews 35-49 and 35-64, with rather abysmal 18-49 numbers compared to JACK-FM or My104.3; I'm not sure if they have the same problem in OC, but someone else will chime in with those numbers, I hope!

There is no separate OC book, and there has not been for about 15 years. Any breakout of OC alone would have less statistical reliability than the full LA book since OC is a subset, comprising only about a quarter of the sample and population.

In the full market, KKGO is 18th in 18-49, which is about an 8 to 9 position improvement over last year's levels. It's 17th in 25-54. In the OC breakout, it is also 17th in 25-54.

That's another reason why I don't tghink a classic country station would have a shot at reaching the 2.0 ratings threshhold which ensures viability in this market.

Certainly, if a more mainstream country station is below 15th in 25-54, a classic country station would fare much worse.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Several folks have pointed out that KKGO's biggest problem within LA County is that their audience skews 35-49 and 35-64, with rather abysmal 18-49 numbers compared to JACK-FM or My104.3; I'm not sure if they have the same problem in OC, but someone else will chime in with those numbers, I hope!

There is no separate OC book, and there has not been for about 15 years. Any breakout of OC alone would have less statistical reliability than the full LA book since OC is a subset, comprising only about a quarter of the sample and population.

In the full market, KKGO is 18th in 18-49, which is about an 8 to 9 position improvement over last year's levels. It's 17th in 25-54. In the OC breakout, it is also 17th in 25-54.

That's another reason why I don't tghink a classic country station would have a shot at reaching the 2.0 ratings threshhold which ensures viability in this market.

Certainly, if a more mainstream country station is below 15th in 25-54, a classic country station would fare much worse.

(This may deserve a thread of its own, but I'll put it here for now as it advances the conversation above.)

David (and others), I have a question for you that I have been thinking about for awhile now.

As FM music radio began to cater to more "niche" music formats (perhaps as early as the mid to late 80's) and then with the further advent of satellite, internet, streaming etc., even more niche formats became available to more people, it seems to me that the commonality of true pop music has diminished a lot, particularly between generations.

For example, except for good AAA (when I can find it) and some rock, I hardly even know what is on the main pop/hit radio stations in town like KIIS, KROQ, Power, etc. Why? Because familiar music that I like is so much more available to me than it was in the past. I have several outlets where I can get my classic rock fix,oldies fix, 70s-90's fix, Margaritaville fix, and various other formats that I listen to occasionally like jazz, country, and bluegrass. With all of those choices, I rarely even come into contact with what is popular now in whatever form we call "hit music" these days.

My parents and grandparents on the other hand could not avoid what was in the pop mainstream because they had so little choice in their respective times. Thus, by default, hit/pop music was so much more popular back in the day than what I perceive it to be today. Is this analysis accurate, and if so, what does that mean for programming mass hit-based stations in the years going forward?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Of course, it's more than just radio occupying peoples' leisure time. That's one aspect that's changed drastically IMO. Another factor could be the demographic makeup of today's potential radio listeners. Back in the 50s and 60s ethnic groups were much smaller and after Vietnam the country had a vast array of different nationalities assimilating and not-assimilating into American culture. Finally, I think in general people are not as astute in recognizing unique music when/if they hear it. C'mon can you really defend the music produced by Lady Gaga et al? I said the music not the results. We all know millions of $$$ are made, just not one cent from yours truly. Concurrently the choices on television and the movies have also declined IMO.

Far as "programming mass hit-based stations in the years going forward", I could NOT care less about it
as long as Internet radio streams of both I-only and OTA radio stations continues to be available in the formats I do care about. Now with all the gadgets available for in-car listening via cell phones there's no reason at all to be a prisoner of crappy choices (IMO of course) in SoCal radio stations anywhere you are in this area.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Of course, it's more than just radio occupying peoples' leisure time. That's one aspect that's changed drastically IMO. Another factor could be the demographic makeup of today's potential radio listeners. Back in the 50s and 60s ethnic groups were much smaller and after Vietnam the country had a vast array of different nationalities assimilating and not-assimilating into American culture. Finally, I think in general people are not as astute in recognizing unique music when/if they hear it. C'mon can you really defend the music produced by Lady Gaga et al? I said the music not the results. We all know millions of $$$ are made, just not one cent from yours truly. Concurrently the choices on television and the movies have also declined IMO.

Far as "programming mass hit-based stations in the years going forward", I could NOT care less about it
as long as Internet radio streams of both I-only and OTA radio stations continues to be available in the formats I do care about. Now with all the gadgets available for in-car listening via cell phones there's no reason at all to be a prisoner of crappy choices (IMO of course) in SoCal radio stations anywhere you are in this area.

Super, on a personal level, I agree with everything you said. As a personal example, I think Lady GaGa was a bona fide star for at least two years before I even became aware of who she was (that's a good thing, btw). Of course, like you, I'm listening to outlets that will not and do not play her, and unless my wife forces me, I am not watching Idol or any of its counterparts. So of course, for me personally, I don't care what KIIS plays now and won't care what they play tomorrow. I'm not the target demo anyway. My question was more on a professional/programming/radio analysis level.

 

[justpassingthough]

Channel, I think you make a valid point, in that "popular" today doesn't have the same connotation it once had in our cultural. "Pop" music today is largely a variant of rhythmic- some leans hip/hop or hip pop, some leans electro/dance, some leans pop-rock, but "pop" is largely a format onto itself- rather than a compilation of the biggest hits from other genres like rock, alternative, country, dance, hip hop, etc. Certainly this is a result of the age in which we live and our ability to seek out entertainment on demand like never before.

The flip side of that coin, though, is that you can seek out entertainment like never before. Your grandparents probably knew what was "popular" because in some form, they were "forced" to listen to the popular music of the day. You have the ability to pick and choose. So its on you to explore other genres, if you're interested, or just disregard them entirely and go about listening to music you know you like. At the same time, you may be missing out on music you may like because you don't have the exposure to it in the way that your grandparents were exposed through mass mediums like radio.

As you pointed out, though, if you aren't in the demographic, you probably aren't interested and certainly we become creatures of habit as we age.

 

[RadioStarOne]

Would an uptempo smooth jazz station be successful in the southland? Really uptempo too.

 

[MattHollidaye OnAir]

My first guess would've been Classic Hip-Hop....but KDAY already has that covered.

I would suggest a full-power Mainstream Urban station to challenge KPWR. Because KJLH is a joke!!

 

[BJordan]

My first guess would've been Classic Hip-Hop....but KDAY already has that covered.

I would suggest a full-power Mainstream Urban station to challenge KPWR. Because KJLH is a joke!!

LOL You've read my mine. 102.3 KJLH has never been a winner in the ratings so they can get way with anything hence their "Radio Free" Positioner. In the 90's & Early 2000's 102.3 KJLH was perfect the way it was. Current R&B by Vivan Green, Eric Benét, Gerald Levert, India.Irie and Jaheim with gospel and jazz crossovers in the balance and no rap involved.

 

[Jay F]

How about another CHR? Considering KIIS, KAMP, and KPWR are three of the top stations in the market there could be room for another. It would probably do better than some of the niche formats that have been suggested.

 

[BJordan]

How about another CHR? Considering KIIS, KAMP, and KPWR are three of the top stations in the market there could be room for another. It would probably do better than some of the niche formats that have been suggested.

But KPWR is the hip hop station out of the all the CHRs out here in Los Angeles. L.A. doesn't need a fourth CHR/Top 40.

 

[MattHollidaye OnAir]

How about another CHR? Considering KIIS, KAMP, and KPWR are three of the top stations in the market there could be room for another. It would probably do better than some of the niche formats that have been suggested.

But KPWR is the hip hop station out of the all the CHRs out here in Los Angeles. L.A. doesn't need a fourth CHR/Top 40.

That's like saying Detroit (Market 11) needs another Urban station. There's already FIVE Urban stations here in the market (WMXD, WJLB, WHTD, WDMK, and WGPR-FM).....do we really need another one?

 

[Jay F]

How about another CHR? Considering KIIS, KAMP, and KPWR are three of the top stations in the market there could be room for another. It would probably do better than some of the niche formats that have been suggested.

But KPWR is the hip hop station out of the all the CHRs out here in Los Angeles. L.A. doesn't need a fourth CHR/Top 40.

That's like saying Detroit (Market 11) needs another Urban station. There's already FIVE Urban stations here in the market (WMXD, WJLB, WHTD, WDMK, and WGPR-FM).....do we really need another one?

Some of those stations have poor ratings which would suggest Urban in Detroit is oversaturated. All 3 of LAs CHRs are booming.

I recall when KAMP launched. Many said there was no hole for the format because KIIS covered it. Well look how KIIS is still #1 and KAMP became a success in their own right. There was obviously a hole for it. It might not be as large now for a new competitor, but I would argue it would do better than a niche format, especially cume wise.And due to the high cume the sky is the limit if the station was well programmed.

 

[wdb2003]

Very true people where hoping that KMVN would fill that void and they were somewhat a CHR station even though it was Rhythmic AC. Just very unfocused on music during its first year. If KMVN would have flipped to fulltime CHR it would overlap with KPWR but atleast we would have a fulltime Hip Hop station. CHR is well covered in this market.

 

[BJordan]

Very true people where hoping that KMVN would fill that void and they were somewhat a CHR station even though it was Rhythmic AC. Just very unfocused on music during its first year. If KMVN would have flipped to fulltime CHR it would overlap with KPWR but atleast we would have a fulltime Hip Hop station. CHR is well covered in this market.

True enough. Do we need another station playing Rihanna's S&N, LMFAO's Party Rock Anthem and Pitbull's Hey Baby. KPWR is fully committed to being the best hip hop in Los Angeles.

BTW wdb2003 go on Power 106's Wikipedia page. As of June 2011 they dropped the rhythmic pop to go back to Hip Hop & R&B. They only dance their spinning is dance flavored Hip Hop & R&B more upbeat.

 

[wdb2003]

I still hear some rhymnic music on the station sometimes. Dev "Dancing in the Dark" reminds me of the 90's great song. Other than that I have notice a few changes nothing really big.

 

[justpassingthough]

Very true people where hoping that KMVN would fill that void and they were somewhat a CHR station even though it was Rhythmic AC. Just very unfocused on music during its first year. If KMVN would have flipped to fulltime CHR it would overlap with KPWR but atleast we would have a fulltime Hip Hop station. CHR is well covered in this market.

True enough. Do we need another station playing Rihanna's S&N, LMFAO's Party Rock Anthem and Pitbull's Hey Baby. KPWR is fully committed to being the best hip hop in Los Angeles.

BTW wdb2003 go on Power 106's Wikipedia page. As of June 2011 they dropped the rhythmic pop to go back to Hip Hop & R&B. They only dance their spinning is dance flavored Hip Hop & R&B more upbeat.

Oh, Wikipedia says they dropped the rhythmic pop? They must have then, as everything is completely accurate on Wikipedia (sarcasm).

They are still playing plenty of rhythmic pop.

 

[BJordan]

I still hear some rhymnic music on the station sometimes. Dev "Dancing in the Dark" reminds me of the 90's great song. Other than that I have notice a few changes nothing really big.

They're also big on Frank Ocean's Novacane and Kelly Rowland's Movtivation. They haven't exactly dropped the rhythmic pop they decreased the airplay they give to the rhythmic pop hits but I'm on my knees and hands hoping that they drop it all together but they won't go back to R&B anytime.

 

[justpassingthough]

I still hear some rhymnic music on the station sometimes. Dev "Dancing in the Dark" reminds me of the 90's great song. Other than that I have notice a few changes nothing really big.

They're also big on Frank Ocean's Novacane and Kelly Rowland's Movtivation. They haven't exactly dropped the rhythmic pop they decreased the airplay they give to the rhythmic pop hits but I'm on my knees and hands hoping that they drop it all together but they won't go back to R&B anytime.

There isn't much current R&B to go to- core artists like Usher, Chris Brown, etc are now making electro pop records.