Format holes in LA

[davideduardo]

LA: 44% Hispanic, 8% Black, 12% Asian, 10% foreign born immigrants not included in any of the first three (Persians, persons from Eastern European countries, etc) so the market is right at 75% ethnic or from a group that would not have a first generation interest in Alternative.

Once again, that's exactly what I posted - are you agreeing with it?

No, I am saying that as CHR in any market appeals to the broadest group of listeners. So a CHR in LA must appeal to Hispanics because in under-35 they are the absolute majority, and a non-Hispanic targeted station in those demos would not have a listener base. This is not a matter of choice... it's a matter of the change in America.

The study Edison did in 2000 and again in 2010 showed that the interest in any form of rock by persons 12-17 has severely declined, and the people who were 12-17 10 years ago have considerably less interest in rock than they did in 2000, too.

So, beyond ethnicity in some markets there is a lessening interest in rock in younger demos... 12-17 and 18-28 in this case.

 

[atlantaboy]

LA: 44% Hispanic, 8% Black, 12% Asian, 10% foreign born immigrants not included in any of the first three (Persians, persons from Eastern European countries, etc) so the market is right at 75% ethnic or from a group that would not have a first generation interest in Alternative.

Once again, that's exactly what I posted - are you agreeing with it?

No, I am saying that as CHR in any market appeals to the broadest group of listeners. So a CHR in LA must appeal to Hispanics because in under-35 they are the absolute majority, and a non-Hispanic targeted station in those demos would not have a listener base. This is not a matter of choice... it's a matter of the change in America.

I agree with you - Which is why I posted that CHRs in L. A. can't lean Alt/Rock, because they need to cater to a mostly ethnic audience

Lol can you guys please read what I write...

 

[briancraig]

What I find interesting is that even with the demographics of L.A., it is still one of the best markets for alternative supporting both KROQ and KYSR.

It is often argued that demographics is one of the reasons why New York barely supports one current based rock station, yet L.A. not only has two alternative stations but two classic rock stations and a very rock oriented jack.

Why is heavily ethnic L.A. so much more of a rock town than heavily ethnic New York?

 

[XMportable]

What I find interesting is that even with the demographics of L.A., it is still one of the best markets for alternative supporting both KROQ and KYSR.

It is often argued that demographics is one of the reasons why New York barely supports one current based rock station, yet L.A. not only has two alternative stations but two classic rock stations and a very rock oriented jack.

Why is heavily ethnic L.A. so much more of a rock town than heavily ethnic New York?

I think people it's because the people that run radio don't REALIZE that music is not based on demographics as it used to be. More people these days have been exposed to different music based on internet access. Music listeners are not in abox as much anymore. I say take more risk radio people, look at internet radio trends and maybe things for AM?FM radio might even take off again. I have black friends that love latin music or Rock, Mexican friends that love R&B/HIPHOP, and white freinds that love Reggae. Demographics is not as big as it used to be.

 

[XMportable]

What I find interesting is that even with the demographics of L.A., it is still one of the best markets for alternative supporting both KROQ and KYSR.

It is often argued that demographics is one of the reasons why New York barely supports one current based rock station, yet L.A. not only has two alternative stations but two classic rock stations and a very rock oriented jack.

Why is heavily ethnic L.A. so much more of a rock town than heavily ethnic New York?

I think it's because the people that run radio don't REALIZE that music is not based on demographics as it used to be. More people these days have been exposed to different music based on internet access. Music listeners are not in abox as much anymore. I say take more risk radio people, look at internet radio trends and maybe things for AM/FM radio might even take off again. I have black friends that love latin music or Rock, Mexican friends that love R&B/HIPHOP, and white freinds that love Reggae. Demographics is not as big as it used to be.

 

[atlantaboy]

What I find interesting is that even with the demographics of L.A., it is still one of the best markets for alternative supporting both KROQ and KYSR.

It is often argued that demographics is one of the reasons why New York barely supports one current based rock station, yet L.A. not only has two alternative stations but two classic rock stations and a very rock oriented jack.

Why is heavily ethnic L.A. so much more of a rock town than heavily ethnic New York?

For whatever reason, L. A. has a huge Alternative music scene, and a lot of Alt/Rock bands come from the L. A. area (compared to very few from New York) - I don't think Alt/Rock has as much of a cultural impact in NYC as it does in L. A.

 

[davideduardo]

I have black friends that love latin music or Rock, Mexican friends that love R&B/HIPHOP, and white freinds that love Reggae. Demographics is not as big as it used to be.

That's not an explanation of demographics. That's a discussion of taste.

 

[BeachBum]

No, I am saying that as CHR in any market appeals to the broadest group of listeners. So a CHR in LA must appeal to Hispanics because in under-35 they are the absolute majority, and a non-Hispanic targeted station in those demos would not have a listener base. This is not a matter of choice... it's a matter of the change in America.

The study Edison did in 2000 and again in 2010 showed that the interest in any form of rock by persons 12-17 has severely declined, and the people who were 12-17 10 years ago have considerably less interest in rock than they did in 2000, too.

So, beyond ethnicity in some markets there is a lessening interest in rock in younger demos... 12-17 and 18-28 in this case.

Thank you. I have argued for decades that mainstream CHR means you play music for the broadest audience in the market, focused on 18-34. Therefore, Washington, DC's WPGC almost sounded urban before they decided on being rhythmic CHR; they would play the occasional rock tune, but it was mostly R&B. Some markets leaned rhythmic because that would garner the broadest audience matching the market demos. To me, rhythmic CHRs are programming to a niche in the market, superserving part of the broad market CHR. And what might be called "mainstream CHR" to most would be more of a rock leaning CHR in an ethnic market, programming to a niche, just as alternative stations program to a niche of the rock market in most markets (LA I think being an exception).

Mainstream should always be defined by the market makeup, not musical style.

 

[TALENTfilter]

What I find interesting is that even with the demographics of L.A., it is still one of the best markets for alternative supporting both KROQ and KYSR.

It is often argued that demographics is one of the reasons why New York barely supports one current based rock station, yet L.A. not only has two alternative stations but two classic rock stations and a very rock oriented jack.

Why is heavily ethnic L.A. so much more of a rock town than heavily ethnic New York?

A lot of it has to do with the fact that KROQ has been around for over 30 years - the market is used to having Alternative music on the airwaves. Yes, the market is heavily 'ethnic', but these are 2nd & 3rd generation Mexican-Americans we're talking about. They grew up here, listening to KROQ (and KNAC back in the day).

New York has never REALLY had a long-term Alt-outlet, save for WDRE out on Long Island, which didn't really cover the NY metro.

 

[Saladressing]

More people these days have been exposed to different music based on internet access. Music listeners are not in abox as much anymore. I say take more risk radio people, look at internet radio trends and maybe things for AM?FM radio might even take off again.

I think there is something to this. This isn't the same world that it was 15, 10 or even 5 years ago, but if you turned on your radio you wouldn't know that. Formats are kept tight and restricted. The entire mainstream music industry still seems to be running the same playbook it ran in the 80s.

 

[XMportable]

I have black friends that love latin music or Rock, Mexican friends that love R&B/HIPHOP, and white freinds that love Reggae. Demographics is not as big as it used to be.

That's not an explanation of demographics. That's a discussion of taste.

You are right indeed. Mcdonalds still taste good if thats the only thing offered in your neighborhood. What if you add a little chinese, a little mexican, & a little indian food. Most people are'nt just eating at Mcdonalds any more..LOL

 

[VIBE109]

VIBE 109 (www.vibe109.com) hopes to fill the hole for underserved urban/R&B/rhythmic fans in the 26 to 49 age range who might feel that current options are either too old or too young for them. I think satellite and internet will fill most gaps as there's limited available band for terrestrial radio and because most media corporations have established objectives/priorities.

 

[the_wanderer]

You are right indeed. Mcdonalds still taste good if thats the only thing offered in your neighborhood.

No it doesn't. It's the same cheap, nasty food, there's a big difference between the 'good' life and life at any/no cost.

 

[davideduardo]

No it doesn't. It's the same cheap, nasty food, there's a big difference between the 'good' life and life at any/no cost.

Keeping in mind we are, in essence, discussing the nature of mass appeal radio formats and fragmentation by more niche formats.

What we see in the PPM world is that the mass appeal formats which play solid hit music have enormous cumes... sometimes exceeding 20% of the market population. These are stations like KIIS, KOST, KRTH, Power, Amp and KBIG (The top one has an average reach of one-third of all 12+ persons in LA... over three and a half million persons).

When you look at what stations share audience with any of these cume leaders you find, literally, everything. From KLVE and KRCD to KPFK and KPPC.

Back to McDonalds. That's the cume leader, followed BK, KFC, Pollo Loco, Taco Bell, Domino's, etc. Nearly everyone goes to them. They "play the hits" which in convenience foods means a combination of appetite appeal, price and location. Most people like these places, in fact, and that's why McDonalds is one of the best performing companies in the world, irrespective of whether they make hamburgers or jet engines.

Niche eateries appeal to things like snob appeal, ethnic tastes, atmosphere, and, of course, the tastiness of the cuisine. But keep in mind that about 75% of all new restaurants that are not chains or franchises fail, some immediately and some after the thrill wears off. This is the same thing we see with stations like Indie in LA, to cite the most often mentioned example.

In radio, ad time is bought based on the size of the audience and the price per spot. CPP. Mass appeal wins, as no agency buys 25 deep in their target audience.

Personal anecdote: When I lived a couple of thousand miles south of Miami, I'd often visit that closest of all US ports of entry when I needed emergency parts or other items unavailable locally. The first thing I would do when getting out of customs was head for McDonalds. After a steady diet of fresh daily home food (I had no need for a refrigerator) and evening visits to Le Chalet Suisse (where Jean Pierre had a table for me, always), Maison Vasque, Los Jarros and similar sites of fine dining, it was sinfully tasty and refreshing to have a Big Mac and fries. Of course, I was coming from a city where the lone supermarket would sell out of Spam each time they got it, at $8 a can in a country where minimum wage was around $36 a month.

Quality is a perception, in dining and in listening.

 

[XMportable]

No it doesn't. It's the same cheap, nasty food, there's a big difference between the 'good' life and life at any/no cost.

Keeping in mind we are, in essence, discussing the nature of mass appeal radio formats and fragmentation by more niche formats.

What we see in the PPM world is that the mass appeal formats which play solid hit music have enormous cumes... sometimes exceeding 20% of the market population. These are stations like KIIS, KOST, KRTH, Power, Amp and KBIG (The top one has an average reach of one-third of all 12+ persons in LA... over three and a half million persons).

When you look at what stations share audience with any of these cume leaders you find, literally, everything. From KLVE and KRCD to KPFK and KPPC.

Back to McDonalds. That's the cume leader, followed BK, KFC, Pollo Loco, Taco Bell, Domino's, etc. Nearly everyone goes to them. They "play the hits" which in convenience foods means a combination of appetite appeal, price and location. Most people like these places, in fact, and that's why McDonalds is one of the best performing companies in the world, irrespective of whether they make hamburgers or jet engines.

Niche eateries appeal to things like snob appeal, ethnic tastes, atmosphere, and, of course, the tastiness of the cuisine. But keep in mind that about 75% of all new restaurants that are not chains or franchises fail, some immediately and some after the thrill wears off. This is the same thing we see with stations like Indie in LA, to cite the most often mentioned example.

In radio, ad time is bought based on the size of the audience and the price per spot. CPP. Mass appeal wins, as no agency buys 25 deep in their target audience.

Personal anecdote: When I lived a couple of thousand miles south of Miami, I'd often visit that closest of all US ports of entry when I needed emergency parts or other items unavailable locally. The first thing I would do when getting out of customs was head for McDonalds. After a steady diet of fresh daily home food (I had no need for a refrigerator) and evening visits to Le Chalet Suisse (where Jean Pierre had a table for me, always), Maison Vasque, Los Jarros and similar sites of fine dining, it was sinfully tasty and refreshing to have a Big Mac and fries. Of course, I was coming from a city where the lone supermarket would sell out of Spam each time they got it, at $8 a can in a country where minimum wage was around $36 a month.

Quality is a perception, in dining and in listening.

I guess I can see understand that coming fromg from the business of things, but my main point here was they will never no how good a niche is unless it is given a chance. Radio is more afraid to take chances than any other business out there.

 

[Robnoxious]

Radio is more afraid to take chances than any other business out there.

I'll see your bet and raise you network television programming. The entire broadcast realm has been market researched and homogenized to the point of pablum.

The neat trick bean counters have to deal with this time around is they are trying to reach that key demo that isn't necessarily listening in the first place.

 

[Nate Wesley]

I think it's because the people that run radio don't REALIZE that music is not based on demographics as it used to be. More people these days have been exposed to different music based on internet access. Music listeners are not in abox as much anymore. I say take more risk radio people, look at internet radio trends and maybe things for AM/FM radio might even take off again. I have black friends that love latin music or Rock, Mexican friends that love R&B/HIPHOP, and white freinds that love Reggae. Demographics is not as big as it used to be.

What you speak of isn't really relevant to the type of audiences radio tries to serve. I'm sure there's a woman out there who's into both...I dunno, Merle Haggard and Dave Koz. Point being, you aren't going to see a [terrestrial] radio station trying to serve BOTH of those tastes.

 

[ceejay]

Well the ones that are missing have been tried but all failed. Urban AC, Rhythmic AC, Dance all bit the dust

All Comedy Radio I think would do good here.
GenXradio I think it would be sucessful here in LA.
Classic Country never been tried in LA probally would flop.

Mainstream Urban is mainly the only thing in LA thats missing. KPWR plays the same music but its Rhythmic which is fine. Its just kinda werid being in the Top 2 market.

Classic Country would probably be pretty popular. Saul has been sprinkling some older country in with what is passing for Country these days, but, it is by no means Classic...... it's what we were listening to 5 years ago, 10 if we're lucky. He is doing a much better job than Cook. There are a lotta folks who want to hear 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's country.

 

[justpassingthough]

Well the ones that are missing have been tried but all failed. Urban AC, Rhythmic AC, Dance all bit the dust

All Comedy Radio I think would do good here.
GenXradio I think it would be sucessful here in LA.
Classic Country never been tried in LA probally would flop.

Mainstream Urban is mainly the only thing in LA thats missing. KPWR plays the same music but its Rhythmic which is fine. Its just kinda werid being in the Top 2 market.

Classic Country would probably be pretty popular. Saul has been sprinkling some older country in with what is passing for Country these days, but, it is by no means Classic...... it's what we were listening to 5 years ago, 10 if we're lucky. He is doing a much better job than Cook. There are a lotta folks who want to hear 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's country.

I think thats incorrect and an antidote. I know no one who wants to hear "classic" country- but it doesn't mean that some people wouldn't listen. I went to the Tim McGraw/Luke Bryan/the Band Perry concert this Saturday in Devore, so I do listen to country- but I know very little about country pre-1990 when artists like Garth Brooks, Tim McGraw, etc. started the "new country" era. I'm 30 years old, so its probably safe to say the average listener for a 60s-80s "classic country" station would be over the cliff in the 25 to 54 age group.

The only artists I'm really familiar with pre-1990 are Johnny Cash and June Carter, because I saw "Walk the Line". Also, my last concerts before this weekend, were Lil Wayne's shows at Staples Center and Honda Center in April, so that is more of a testament to country music and hip hop music's moves towards the mainstream in the past 25 years or so. Classic country in LA is a very tough sell, at best.

 

[briancraig]

Demographics alone would make classic country a low rated format in L.A.

Sad, because L.A. has a great country music tradition. Merle Haggard, Glen Campbell and Buck Owens cut most of their classic material at the Capitol Studios in Hollywood.

L.A. used to have a trade group that represented West Coast country music, the Academy of Country Music. The ACM still exists and is headquartered I believe in Encino but they no longer really focus on promoting the country music industry in California.