HD /FMXTRA NEWS AT NAB

[awj223]

AM is rapidly losing the last of its sales demo audience because people under 45 or 50 do not like listening to analog AM. Yet when "AM" formats like news / talk or all-news are moved to FM, in the same market, the 35-54 audience increases enormously.

The only chance the decent AM facilities (less than 300 in the top 100 markets) have of survival is to improve the quality via HD. Otherwise, the AM formats that work will move to FM and the entire band will die.

Translation: "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

You and other IBOC supports give this doom-or-gloom scenario for AM, when the major AMs are alive-and-well - yea, good way to justify HD-AM, like anyone cares about audio quality for news/talk/sports.

Yes. Who cares? Music doesn't sound too good on AM, but I'm in the youngest age group that counts in the ratings and I don't care if the sports broadcasts I hear are cut off at 5-7 kHz. I care more about being able to drive for 250 miles without losing the signal.

How about this: stop programming mainly 50+ formats on AM and maybe you'll get something other than 50+ listeners. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Content drives listening, within reason (if the band can't make the content sound good, this doesn't always hold true, e.g. AM and music). So put content on AM that 1) appeals to all ages and 2) doesn't require high fidelity. Here's a clue: SPORTS.

The only chance the decent AM facilities (less than 300 in the top 100 markets) have of survival is to improve the quality via HD. Otherwise, the AM formats that work will move to FM and the entire band will die.

Okay, but if that is your goal the way to improve quality is to use FULL DIGITAL, not this inferior HYBRID crap that has less range than digital and makes analog sound even worse than it already does. Oh, and aren't you forgetting HD radio's fatal flaw? http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,67494.0.html People HATE delays. I was at a major retailer and there are still zero HD radios on sale there. To most, FM sounds good enough for anything, and AM sounds good enough for sports. The entire band won't die. The 50 kW flamethrowers will always be there. Put every professional basketball, baseball, and football team on a Class A AM.

Find a way to sell ads to a wider audience than just the ratings defined immediate metro area. The radio industry reminds me of the music industry. Run by people who aren't creative enough to adapt to changes in the market. If the large corporations can't change fast enough, the value of AM stations will fall to the point where some young, creative entrepreneurs purchase them and put some decent content up there, find a way to make money off it, and laugh all the way to the bank.

First, TV was supposed to be the end of radio. Now FM is supposed to be the end of AM radio and iPods are supposed to be the decline of FM radio? I don't think so.

 

[Chuck]

AM is rapidly losing the last of its sales demo audience because people under 45 or 50 do not like listening to analog AM. Yet when "AM" formats like news / talk or all-news are moved to FM, in the same market, the 35-54 audience increases enormously.

The only chance the decent AM facilities (less than 300 in the top 100 markets) have of survival is to improve the quality via HD. Otherwise, the AM formats that work will move to FM and the entire band will die.

Translation: "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

As I recall, Radio Disney is mostly on AM stations. I don't think there are many 50+ folks out there who listen to it on a regular basis, but it seems like kids do. Some surprise huh? The real reason nobody under 50 listens to AM is because there is little or nothing on AM that interests them.

On the other hand, put on some great local sports, and you’ll have every high school kid in town tuned in. Any small market AM owner knows this and the smart ones do it and make money. People will tune in if you give them something they want to listen to.

 

[R.F. Burns]

AM is rapidly losing the last of its sales demo audience because people under 45 or 50 do not like listening to analog AM. Yet when "AM" formats like news / talk or all-news are moved to FM, in the same market, the 35-54 audience increases enormously.

The only chance the decent AM facilities (less than 300 in the top 100 markets) have of survival is to improve the quality via HD. Otherwise, the AM formats that work will move to FM and the entire band will die.

Translation: "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

As I recall, Radio Disney is mostly on AM stations. I don't think there are many 50+ folks out there who listen to it on a regular basis, but it seems like kids do. Some surprise huh? The real reason nobody under 50 listens to AM is because there is little or nothing on AM that interests them.

On the other hand, put on some great local sports, and you’ll have every high school kid in town tuned in. Any small market AM owner knows this and the smart ones do it and make money. People will tune in if you give them something they want to listen to.

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

 

[awj223]

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

I like how you completely missed the point and try to setup a straw man argument. Chuck's point is that people under 50 DO listen to AM, Radio Disney in particular, because it has CONTENT that interests them.

An under 12 person can't tune the radio themselves? Funny you say that, most have no problem using a computer or a video game system.

 

[Chuck]

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

I like how you completely missed the point and try to setup a straw man argument. Chuck's point is that people under 50 DO listen to AM, Radio Disney in particular, because it has CONTENT that interests them.

An under 12 person can't tune the radio themselves? Funny you say that, most have no problem using a computer or a video game system.

Yep. Unfortunately RF has missed the point. I very much doubt that Disney is hemorrhaging money over their radio enterprise. I'd be amazed if they aren't making a tidy profit. It is good niche programming. The Mouse is a very shrewd businessman.

It's all about content, and your average listener couldn't care less about the delivery method. Ask Clouseau. I’ll bet that his stations live sports remotes make enough money to make payroll.

By the way, I was tuning radios quite effectively by age four and had my very own radio by age six. I had no problem tuning it. Either I was terribly advanced or everyone else is retarded. Today's kids are a lot more technology savvy than we were 50 - 60 years ago.

 

[semoochie]

I believe Radio Disney is targeted at 8-14 year olds. Have you ever listened to it? It's similar to CHR/Pop but aimed at kids.

 

[Kelly]

I'm not sure what you guys saw at the Bext booth, but all I saw was a couple of black 3RU boxes with FMExtra badly silkscreened on the front panel, and what appeared to be a modified stereo tuner that didn't seem to function at the time. There was no demo in the booth, just some cobbled together gear in a rack where you couldn't see the back. When I asked if they had some demo running of FM Extra, the guy said "not at the booth". FME appears to just be a bunch of claims.

 

[R.F. Burns]

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

I like how you completely missed the point and try to setup a straw man argument. Chuck's point is that people under 50 DO listen to AM, Radio Disney in particular, because it has CONTENT that interests them.

An under 12 person can't tune the radio themselves? Funny you say that, most have no problem using a computer or a video game system.

Yep. Unfortunately RF has missed the point. I very much doubt that Disney is hemorrhaging money over their radio enterprise. I'd be amazed if they aren't making a tidy profit. It is good niche programming. The Mouse is a very shrewd businessman.

It's all about content, and your average listener couldn't care less about the delivery method. Ask Clouseau. I’ll bet that his stations live sports remotes make enough money to make payroll.

By the way, I was tuning radios quite effectively by age four and had my very own radio by age six. I had no problem tuning it. Either I was terribly advanced or everyone else is retarded. Today's kids are a lot more technology savvy than we were 50 - 60 years ago.

And unfortunately you appear to have misundcerstood my point. Radio Disney's audience is miniscule. It's used as a promotional tool for Disney industries but if you look at the audience numbers at least in a major market like NYC you'll see that while it's aimed at children, no one is listening because they aren't even listed in the NY arbitrons. That means their share is probably 00. The lowest radio station I see in this book is a .3. So you have a station aimed at youngsters but not enough listen for the station to make the ratings. Not exactly a glowing indication of the success at attracting a young audinece with niche programing. As to youngsters changing stations on the radio, typically the radio is tuned by a parent, in other words, the person driving the car. The reason that Disney puts their programing on Am stations, is because those facilities can be had for relatively little money.

 

[awj223]

And unfortunately you appear to have misundcerstood my point. Radio Disney's audience is miniscule. It's used as a promotional tool for Disney industries but if you look at the audience numbers at least in a major market like NYC you'll see that while it's aimed at children, no one is listening because they aren't even listed in the NY arbitrons. That means their share is probably 00. The lowest radio station I see in this book is a .3. So you have a station aimed at youngsters but not enough listen for the station to make the ratings. Not exactly a glowing indication of the success at attracting a young audinece with niche programing. As to youngsters changing stations on the radio, typically the radio is tuned by a parent, in other words, the person driving the car. The reason that Disney puts their programing on Am stations, is because those facilities can be had for relatively little money.

Anoter straw man. Arbitron only surveys listeners over 12 years of age. Radio Disney's target audience is mostly under 12. The intersection of Arbitron's participants and Radio Disney's target audience is pretty much the null set. Gee, I wonder why Radio Disney doesn't show up in the surveys? I hear it's popular with children, but let's face it, once you turn 12 and start going to middle school, listening to Radio Disney is no longer cool. Once you're old enough to be counted by Arbitron, listening to Radio Disney is no longer cool.

You've never been in a car where a child either asks the parent to tune to a particular station or asks permission to tune the radio himself/herself? Also, not all listening is done in the car.

 

[R.F. Burns]

And unfortunately you appear to have misundcerstood my point. Radio Disney's audience is miniscule. It's used as a promotional tool for Disney industries but if you look at the audience numbers at least in a major market like NYC you'll see that while it's aimed at children, no one is listening because they aren't even listed in the NY arbitrons. That means their share is probably 00. The lowest radio station I see in this book is a .3. So you have a station aimed at youngsters but not enough listen for the station to make the ratings. Not exactly a glowing indication of the success at attracting a young audinece with niche programing. As to youngsters changing stations on the radio, typically the radio is tuned by a parent, in other words, the person driving the car. The reason that Disney puts their programing on Am stations, is because those facilities can be had for relatively little money.

Anoter straw man. Arbitron only surveys listeners over 12 years of age. Radio Disney's target audience is mostly under 12. The intersection of Arbitron's participants and Radio Disney's target audience is pretty much the null set. Gee, I wonder why Radio Disney doesn't show up in the surveys? I hear it's popular with children, but let's face it, once you turn 12 and start going to middle school, listening to Radio Disney is no longer cool. Once you're old enough to be counted by Arbitron, listening to Radio Disney is no longer cool.

You've never been in a car where a child either asks the parent to tune to a particular station or asks permission to tune the radio himself/herself? Also, not all listening is done in the car.

So let me understand what you are saying here. A parent is driving in a car with their child and the child says, put on Disney and the parent does. Are you telling me that the parent isn't listening to Radio Disney too? When that parent gets a diary do they say that they weren't listening to the radio but their children were and they don't count? How many under 12 year olds go up to their rooms and listen to Radio Disney alone? I feel comfortable saying that most Radio Disney listening is done by both child and parent and if they did listen to Disney with their child, when the parent gets a diary they would list Radio Disney but they don't because not enough people, even with the 50 KW, WQEW runs are listening.

 

[awj223]

So let me understand what you are saying here. A parent is driving in a car with their child and the child says, put on Disney and the parent does. Are you telling me that the parent isn't listening to Radio Disney too? When that parent gets a diary do they say that they weren't listening to the radio but their children were and they don't count? How many under 12 year olds go up to their rooms and listen to Radio Disney alone? I feel comfortable saying that most Radio Disney listening is done by both child and parent and if they did listen to Disney with their child, when the parent gets a diary they would list Radio Disney but they don't because not enough people, even with the 50 KW, WQEW runs are listening.

Point taken. I guess this comes down to how Arbitron asks its participants to report listening. If I put on a sports talk show and there's a 12 year old passenger in my car who has absolutely no interest in it, and is paying full attention to the handheld video game system (s)he has taken on the trip, do I report the child as a listener? Is it possible that the parent doesn't consider himself/herself a listener even though (s)he has tuned to RD at the child's request? I don't know exactly how the surveys are presented so I'm asking you. I know that in the Nielsen survey there is a category for "TV was on but nobody was paying attention" which includes falling asleep with the TV on, among other things.

If you're going to see how successful RD is in parent/child listening in the car, it's probably better to use a market other than New York. Some markets in CA, for example, have no school bus service, so it's normal for parents to drive their children to school every day. My observation has been that in midwestern and east coast markets, there's still school bus service so the amount of time children spend in the car with their parents is much more limited, and it might not occur except on the weekends. This would tend to throw the survey results strongly toward whatever the parents listen to on their commutes to work. Any listening on handheld radios walking to the school bus stop would not get counted because of the age of the listener. Anyway, I don't think survey results of a station targeted at people so young are a good indicator of whether or not young people can be convinced to listen to AM.

 

[radiopilot]

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

I like how you completely missed the point and try to setup a straw man argument. Chuck's point is that people under 50 DO listen to AM, Radio Disney in particular, because it has CONTENT that interests them.

An under 12 person can't tune the radio themselves? Funny you say that, most have no problem using a computer or a video game system.

Yep. Unfortunately RF has missed the point. I very much doubt that Disney is hemorrhaging money over their radio enterprise. I'd be amazed if they aren't making a tidy profit. It is good niche programming. The Mouse is a very shrewd businessman.

It's all about content, and your average listener couldn't care less about the delivery method. Ask Clouseau. I’ll bet that his stations live sports remotes make enough money to make payroll.

By the way, I was tuning radios quite effectively by age four and had my very own radio by age six. I had no problem tuning it. Either I was terribly advanced or everyone else is retarded. Today's kids are a lot more technology savvy than we were 50 - 60 years ago.

And unfortunately you appear to have misundcerstood my point. Radio Disney's audience is miniscule. It's used as a promotional tool for Disney industries but if you look at the audience numbers at least in a major market like NYC you'll see that while it's aimed at children, no one is listening because they aren't even listed in the NY arbitrons. That means their share is probably 00. The lowest radio station I see in this book is a .3. So you have a station aimed at youngsters but not enough listen for the station to make the ratings. Not exactly a glowing indication of the success at attracting a young audinece with niche programing. As to youngsters changing stations on the radio, typically the radio is tuned by a parent, in other words, the person driving the car. The reason that Disney puts their programing on Am stations, is because those facilities can be had for relatively little money.

Radio Disney gets 1.65 million children age 6 to 11 (and over 600,000 moms) per week?????

http://jaehakim.com/articles/music/features/disney.htm

And this is the Philadelphia listenership alone...

http://www.bradyresidence.com/radiodisney.html

So once again RFBurns, you've proven nothing except that you're an HD follower to the grave regardless of what others post to the contrary!

Radiopilot

Miniscule did you say.... I bet NYC radio listeners aren't that much per week!

 

[R.F. Burns]

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

I like how you completely missed the point and try to setup a straw man argument. Chuck's point is that people under 50 DO listen to AM, Radio Disney in particular, because it has CONTENT that interests them.

An under 12 person can't tune the radio themselves? Funny you say that, most have no problem using a computer or a video game system.

Yep. Unfortunately RF has missed the point. I very much doubt that Disney is hemorrhaging money over their radio enterprise. I'd be amazed if they aren't making a tidy profit. It is good niche programming. The Mouse is a very shrewd businessman.

It's all about content, and your average listener couldn't care less about the delivery method. Ask Clouseau. I’ll bet that his stations live sports remotes make enough money to make payroll.

By the way, I was tuning radios quite effectively by age four and had my very own radio by age six. I had no problem tuning it. Either I was terribly advanced or everyone else is retarded. Today's kids are a lot more technology savvy than we were 50 - 60 years ago.

And unfortunately you appear to have misundcerstood my point. Radio Disney's audience is miniscule. It's used as a promotional tool for Disney industries but if you look at the audience numbers at least in a major market like NYC you'll see that while it's aimed at children, no one is listening because they aren't even listed in the NY arbitrons. That means their share is probably 00. The lowest radio station I see in this book is a .3. So you have a station aimed at youngsters but not enough listen for the station to make the ratings. Not exactly a glowing indication of the success at attracting a young audinece with niche programing. As to youngsters changing stations on the radio, typically the radio is tuned by a parent, in other words, the person driving the car. The reason that Disney puts their programing on Am stations, is because those facilities can be had for relatively little money.

Radio Disney gets 1.65 million children age 6 to 11 (and over 600,000 moms) per week?????

http://jaehakim.com/articles/music/features/disney.htm

And this is the Philadelphia listenership alone...

http://www.bradyresidence.com/radiodisney.html

So once again RFBurns, you've proven nothing except that you're an HD follower to the grave regardless of what others post to the contrary!

Radiopilot

Miniscule did you say.... I bet NYC radio listeners aren't that much per week!

Excuse me? There are 4 million potential listeners in Philadelphia and checking the numbers even in the Arbitron 12+ listing http://www.radioandrecords.com/RRRa...0 AM&SU=CM&BPER=19.9&HPER=5.0&OPER=&NSD=&CE=0
One can see that Disney never makes the ratings. If that 600,000 moms is a national number that would say that in the real world of broadcasting Radio Disney gets a small percentage of the younger audience. In NYC alone, using a 200 census, there are over 1.5 Million children newborn to 14. Radio Disney claims (without any proof) that their audience numbers are 1,650 million nationally.Repeating again for the slow ones. I have 2 HD radios which I enjoy. I have provided proof of performance in the form of audio demonstrations and the anti IBOC people have refused to believe me. There are quite a few independently owned stations in my part of the country and NONE of the owners outside of Disney program their AM's for a younger audience. I'm sure once they read that they could garner 1 million listeners nationally amongst 54 stations and 4 national distributers (DIRECTV, XM, Sirius, Music Choice). Doesn't sound all that great. I wonder what a spot goes for on their network? Want to guess what kind of numbers the FM competition gets for the same audience. I've alreadsy mentione the metal station which ran on 1480 in NYC in the early 1990's. They had no audience and quickly were sold and became Korean. Why do you think so many AM's are no all informercial or ethnic programing?

 

[Chuck]

<SNIP>
There are quite a few independently owned stations in my part of the country and NONE of the owners outside of Disney program their AM's for a younger audience.
<snip>

You don't suppose that the fact that "nobody programs AM stations to a younger audience" might explain why younger people don't listen? Why would they?

As for brokered ethnic programs, they are on the air because it's easy and its cheap, costing the station owner nothing other than their electric bill. There are people willing to pay for the air time. It' a Slum Lord approach to broadcasting. Doing something better might take talent, imagination and investment. Why do that when they can make money by running things into the ground?

 

[Chuck]

I'm not sure what you guys saw at the Bext booth, but all I saw was a couple of black 3RU boxes with FMExtra badly silkscreened on the front panel, and what appeared to be a modified stereo tuner that didn't seem to function at the time. There was no demo in the booth, just some cobbled together gear in a rack where you couldn't see the back. When I asked if they had some demo running of FM Extra, the guy said "not at the booth". FME appears to just be a bunch of claims.

I have to admit that it was a "less than stellar" display, but I saw three of the walnut box FMExtra receivers in the Bext booth. They had headphones attached, each tuned in to a locally generated FMExtra signal. The system is not vaporware. It works. The radios were displaying text information on their screens, and one of them was displaying the Bext logo on its screen.

The radios sounded good on the headphones, but I have to agree with Clouseau's post about the ten "mystery buttons" on the front panel of the radios. It is not very obvious what they do. They look like pre-sets, but maybe they aren’t. A little labeling would help. The FMExtra encoder was there, connected to a Bext exciter running into a dummy load. I have to admit that the FMExtra Exciter doesn't look too sexy. It's just a rack mount Dell computer. The back of it had a maze of wires coming from a cheap CD player as a program source. Not much in the eye candy department.

Over art Aztec-Audemat, Lyle Henry was holding court with FM extra radios using an AAC+ stream. The processing was being done by the company's Arianne processor (a very nice piece of equipment.) I think the stream was only 32 kbs, but it sounded really good. The point of the demo was using their processing; you could cram a lot of information on just one FMExtra SCA channel.

I also saw some evidence of FMExtra at Armstrong. As for HD Radio, of course, that was the point of Ibiquity's booth, but I saw no evidence of a working demo, even though several stations in Las Vegas are using the technology. You would have thought they would have turned on a radio. Down at the Radio-Guide booth, they had a Radiosophy HD radio playing. At least, it worked, but it did not impress me very much. It sounded more or less like any inexpensive boom-box radio, and the cabinet and buttons look very cheap. If I saw it at Wal-Mart for $29.00, I might consider it against the rest of the really swell radios from people like "Durabrand." That said, this may be a great radio. I don't know, but it does not have the outward appearance of something above the ordinary. I think that's too bad.

Of course, Continental, BE, Harris and others had HD transmitters on display. Mosley had their digital STL on display that could carry several streams simultaneously which would be helpful for most HD installations. I'm sure there were numerous other booths that had products or solutions that would be helpful if you are doing an installation. For instance antenna manufacturers like Shively, Jampro, Katherine-Scala and others have HD capable antennas and accessories available. None of these were new products. Just more of what they have been showing for several years.

I did see the term "HD" splattered all over the convention. In fact, it was absolutely everywhere. 99% of the time, it was referring to TV. That’s where all the buzz was this year. NAB for the most part has become a video and computer show. The area in the lower part of the South Hall devoted to Internet streaming and delivery solutions (mostly video) was nearly as big as the entire "Radio Show."

In fact, the radio part of NAB has once again been pushed farther into the boondocks. This year, its usual location had been overtaken by video. Radio now occupies the far west end of the North Hall. Previously, that area had been left vacant, or was populated by obscure products (some of them quite innovative) from upstarts who couldn't get booth space anywhere else.

Radio is very much in the back seat at the NAB show.

 

[calstymes]

Chuck reported:

As for HD Radio, of course, that was the point of Ibiquity's booth, but I saw no evidence of a working demo, even though several stations in Las Vegas are using the technology.

Why does this not surprise me?

You would have thought they would have turned on a radio.

Who would have thunk it? Dang! Another missed opportunity.

R.F Burns thusly spake:

Well my sarcastic "friend" When someone makes a definitive statement proof of credibiliuty is usually required.

This is essentially a blog where lots of anonymous people participate. Credibiliuty is irrelevant because much of what participants express here are simply opinions. But why would those same participants offer actual information here if that information wasn't true? Surely we can't all be trying to obfuscate and confuse.

Oh yes, sarcasm is one of my most humorous traits and I might be more of a "friend" to you than you realize. You never know about these things.

Get some experience. I have had a successful career working in major market radio for most of my life. You want to work where I work, send a resume'.

Thanks, I just might give that a try!

But I would like to return to my original point: I would really like to see a radio engineer from one of the big gun AM stations in NYC come on here and tell all of us radio geeks how fabulous IBOC is. Surely, if AM IBOC is as good as the HD Alliance and iBiQuity say it is, there is somebody (anybody in engineering authority?) who would be willing to come on here to set all of us naysayers straight and tell us how their professional lives have improved and radio stations have been saved by installing AM IBOC!

I've talked with some friends about these sites and they have all said, why bother.

All of them have said that?? Surely somebody would be willing to take time out his/her busy day to accommodate us poor folk here who are looking for guidance.

As you say the answer to one of the people who posts here under different names is to not anser him.

That is the answer to making this individual disappear and cause his interest to wane in posting links to meaningless other opinion pieces and statistics. Rather, I am looking for more people of knowledge in the industry to come forward. I'm not sure I see the connection.

You know from one of the other boards an engineer who's initials are T.R. He has years of experience with Iboc when it was just an experimental technology. I'm not upset but while I enjoy the challenge of debate in here, you can't change the closed minds which many Anti IBOC people in here have.

I will offer the corollary to that: You can't get blinders to the problems of AM IBOC removed which many pro IBOC people in here are wearing.

But all of that notwithstanding, please bring Mr. T.R. on here now that the technology is no longer experimental and the FCC has given its blessing to it and perhaps he can explain to us what the joys are of running AM IBOC on his super station. Or maybe there are other competent individuals who work for other super stations who can chime in here and get us all pointed in the right direction. Only the engineering people can speak from experience and knowledge! Are any of you from any large broadcasting market reading? Please, please help us to settle this controversy once and for all!

Hoping against hope, I will continue to scour the pages of this topic to see if one messiah for AM IBOC emerges. Once my doubts have been satisfied then I can go back to living a normal life and will stop being an annoying gnat to the pro-IBOC individuals on here.

 

[Mike Walker]

FMExtra was potentially a good idea, but it's just too little too late, especially if the goal is to be "the" standard. If FMExtra has a future (and perhaps it does), it seems to me that it is in offering ADDITIONAL digital services ("channels/streams") behond those available with HD.

 

[radiopilot]

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

I like how you completely missed the point and try to setup a straw man argument. Chuck's point is that people under 50 DO listen to AM, Radio Disney in particular, because it has CONTENT that interests them.

An under 12 person can't tune the radio themselves? Funny you say that, most have no problem using a computer or a video game system.

Yep. Unfortunately RF has missed the point. I very much doubt that Disney is hemorrhaging money over their radio enterprise. I'd be amazed if they aren't making a tidy profit. It is good niche programming. The Mouse is a very shrewd businessman.

It's all about content, and your average listener couldn't care less about the delivery method. Ask Clouseau. I’ll bet that his stations live sports remotes make enough money to make payroll.

By the way, I was tuning radios quite effectively by age four and had my very own radio by age six. I had no problem tuning it. Either I was terribly advanced or everyone else is retarded. Today's kids are a lot more technology savvy than we were 50 - 60 years ago.

And unfortunately you appear to have misundcerstood my point. Radio Disney's audience is miniscule. It's used as a promotional tool for Disney industries but if you look at the audience numbers at least in a major market like NYC you'll see that while it's aimed at children, no one is listening because they aren't even listed in the NY arbitrons. That means their share is probably 00. The lowest radio station I see in this book is a .3. So you have a station aimed at youngsters but not enough listen for the station to make the ratings. Not exactly a glowing indication of the success at attracting a young audinece with niche programing. As to youngsters changing stations on the radio, typically the radio is tuned by a parent, in other words, the person driving the car. The reason that Disney puts their programing on Am stations, is because those facilities can be had for relatively little money.

Radio Disney gets 1.65 million children age 6 to 11 (and over 600,000 moms) per week?????

http://jaehakim.com/articles/music/features/disney.htm

And this is the Philadelphia listenership alone...

http://www.bradyresidence.com/radiodisney.html

So once again RFBurns, you've proven nothing except that you're an HD follower to the grave regardless of what others post to the contrary!

Radiopilot

Miniscule did you say.... I bet NYC radio listeners aren't that much per week!

Excuse me? There are 4 million potential listeners in Philadelphia and checking the numbers even in the Arbitron 12+ listing http://www.radioandrecords.com/RRRa...0 AM&SU=CM&BPER=19.9&HPER=5.0&OPER=&NSD=&CE=0
One can see that Disney never makes the ratings. If that 600,000 moms is a national number that would say that in the real world of broadcasting Radio Disney gets a small percentage of the younger audience. In NYC alone, using a 200 census, there are over 1.5 Million children newborn to 14. Radio Disney claims (without any proof) that their audience numbers are 1,650 million nationally.Repeating again for the slow ones. I have 2 HD radios which I enjoy. I have provided proof of performance in the form of audio demonstrations and the anti IBOC people have refused to believe me. There are quite a few independently owned stations in my part of the country and NONE of the owners outside of Disney program their AM's for a younger audience. I'm sure once they read that they could garner 1 million listeners nationally amongst 54 stations and 4 national distributers (DIRECTV, XM, Sirius, Music Choice). Doesn't sound all that great. I wonder what a spot goes for on their network? Want to guess what kind of numbers the FM competition gets for the same audience. I've alreadsy mentione the metal station which ran on 1480 in NYC in the early 1990's. They had no audience and quickly were sold and became Korean. Why do you think so many AM's are no all informercial or ethnic programing?

Once again you've proven NOTHING to the contrary...Radio Disney DOES have proof each and everyday, they get 800,000 plus calls each day from kids and moms (which are logged in) on contests and giveaways and such... but YOU actually believe based on mumbo jumbo Arbitron ratings which suggest 2000+ people hand in their diaries from NYC and believe that this is the basis for millions listening? How moronic is that?

Seems like the only proof you need is what YOU say, others that have ACTUALLY taken the surveys, logged in the calls, etc. are liars... Well Mr. Burns why not take your so called truths and bring QUALIFIED REAL RADIO ENGINEERS on this board as Cal Stymes has indicated and STOP lying to us that you're a qualified engineer worthy of statements for which you know nothing about!

BRING your AM engineers in which can vouch for the success or failure of IBOC in NYC!

Radiopilot

 

[Chuck]

FMExtra was potentially a good idea, but it's just too little too late, especially if the goal is to be "the" standard. If FMExtra has a future (and perhaps it does), it seems to me that it is in offering ADDITIONAL digital services ("channels/streams") behond those available with HD.

It still is a good idea. HD stations can use it for additional channels, as can analog only stations. Nobody gets hurt in the process. I think the idea will grow momentum. In any case, it is too early to pronounce it dead.

 

[R.F. Burns]

How old are the children who lisaten to radio Disney and what kind of numbers do they get in each market? I can tell you that 50 thousand watt WQEW does not make the ratings in NYC. The age of the children Radio Disney is aimed at can not tune the radio themselves. A mom or dad might turn the station on to keep the kids entertained but you don't have a lot of money demo folks tunning in. Radio Disney (and ESPN Radio) is seen as a loss leader for the more profitable Disney Theme park and for the ESPN TV and brand name. Last 12+ book in NY WEPN (50KW 1050 Khz) garnered a enormous .8 rating).

I like how you completely missed the point and try to setup a straw man argument. Chuck's point is that people under 50 DO listen to AM, Radio Disney in particular, because it has CONTENT that interests them.

An under 12 person can't tune the radio themselves? Funny you say that, most have no problem using a computer or a video game system.

Yep. Unfortunately RF has missed the point. I very much doubt that Disney is hemorrhaging money over their radio enterprise. I'd be amazed if they aren't making a tidy profit. It is good niche programming. The Mouse is a very shrewd businessman.

It's all about content, and your average listener couldn't care less about the delivery method. Ask Clouseau. I’ll bet that his stations live sports remotes make enough money to make payroll.

By the way, I was tuning radios quite effectively by age four and had my very own radio by age six. I had no problem tuning it. Either I was terribly advanced or everyone else is retarded. Today's kids are a lot more technology savvy than we were 50 - 60 years ago.

And unfortunately you appear to have misundcerstood my point. Radio Disney's audience is miniscule. It's used as a promotional tool for Disney industries but if you look at the audience numbers at least in a major market like NYC you'll see that while it's aimed at children, no one is listening because they aren't even listed in the NY arbitrons. That means their share is probably 00. The lowest radio station I see in this book is a .3. So you have a station aimed at youngsters but not enough listen for the station to make the ratings. Not exactly a glowing indication of the success at attracting a young audinece with niche programing. As to youngsters changing stations on the radio, typically the radio is tuned by a parent, in other words, the person driving the car. The reason that Disney puts their programing on Am stations, is because those facilities can be had for relatively little money.

Radio Disney gets 1.65 million children age 6 to 11 (and over 600,000 moms) per week?????

http://jaehakim.com/articles/music/features/disney.htm

And this is the Philadelphia listenership alone...

http://www.bradyresidence.com/radiodisney.html

So once again RFBurns, you've proven nothing except that you're an HD follower to the grave regardless of what others post to the contrary!

Radiopilot

Miniscule did you say.... I bet NYC radio listeners aren't that much per week!

Excuse me? There are 4 million potential listeners in Philadelphia and checking the numbers even in the Arbitron 12+ listing http://www.radioandrecords.com/RRRa...0 AM&SU=CM&BPER=19.9&HPER=5.0&OPER=&NSD=&CE=0
One can see that Disney never makes the ratings. If that 600,000 moms is a national number that would say that in the real world of broadcasting Radio Disney gets a small percentage of the younger audience. In NYC alone, using a 200 census, there are over 1.5 Million children newborn to 14. Radio Disney claims (without any proof) that their audience numbers are 1,650 million nationally.Repeating again for the slow ones. I have 2 HD radios which I enjoy. I have provided proof of performance in the form of audio demonstrations and the anti IBOC people have refused to believe me. There are quite a few independently owned stations in my part of the country and NONE of the owners outside of Disney program their AM's for a younger audience. I'm sure once they read that they could garner 1 million listeners nationally amongst 54 stations and 4 national distributers (DIRECTV, XM, Sirius, Music Choice). Doesn't sound all that great. I wonder what a spot goes for on their network? Want to guess what kind of numbers the FM competition gets for the same audience. I've alreadsy mentione the metal station which ran on 1480 in NYC in the early 1990's. They had no audience and quickly were sold and became Korean. Why do you think so many AM's are no all informercial or ethnic programing?

Once again you've proven NOTHING to the contrary...Radio Disney DOES have proof each and everyday, they get 800,000 plus calls each day from kids and moms (which are logged in) on contests and giveaways and such... but YOU actually believe based on mumbo jumbo Arbitron ratings which suggest 2000+ people hand in their diaries from NYC and believe that this is the basis for millions listening? How moronic is that?

Seems like the only proof you need is what YOU say, others that have ACTUALLY taken the surveys, logged in the calls, etc. are liars... Well Mr. Burns why not take your so called truths and bring QUALIFIED REAL RADIO ENGINEERS on this board as Cal Stymes has indicated and STOP lying to us that you're a qualified engineer worthy of statements for which you know nothing about!

BRING your AM engineers in which can vouch for the success or failure of IBOC in NYC!

Radiopilot

You don't believe Arbitron? You are on your own. I don't have to bring anyone here. this is nothing more than an opinion site. You don't wish to believe me, that's your right. But no matter how you look at life 2+2 equals 4. Best Buy has joined the IBOC team now. For a losing technology things seem to be going Ibiquities way. ;D