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"HD Radio - two years later"

Re: More disingenous garbage...

clouseau said:
How does this link justifiy your Misdirection?

Clouseau

I was referring to when the first stations started broadcasting in HD, back in 2002, which I didn't realize - nice try, but you are really trying to make something out of nothing and trying to hijack this thread ! :D
 
Re: More disingenous garbage...

PocketRadio said:
I was referring to when the first stations started broadcasting in HD, back in 2002, which I didn't realize

Hey... Didn't you post...

...Nathan Franzen purchased a Kenwood KTC-HR100 HD Radio tuner from the Ultimate Electronics store in Cedar Rapids, Iowa on Monday, January 5, 2004."

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/recording/ibiquity.html

Interesting - I didn't realize that HD Radio had started to rollout 2 1/2 years ago.

Now lets see ... 2 1/2 years ago was 2002?

BUSTED! Try again...

Clouseau
 
Re: More disingenous garbage...

clouseau said:
\
BUSTED! Try again...

Clouseau

My bad - the first HD radio was sold 3 1/2 years ago, and stations have been broadcasting in HD since at least 2002; HD Radio is even more of a failed technology, than I realized ! You really need to find more than straws to grasp at ! :D
 
Re: More disingenous garbage...

PocketRadio said:
My bad ....

The point has been made. What you posted has been shown for what it is. I'm outta this thread.

Clouseau
 
PocketRadio said:
"HD Radio - two years later"

"And, two years later, here's a picture of what our industry's efforts have produced at the point of purchase in one Orange County Best Buy. We have a lot of work to do." :D

http://www.hear2.com/2007/05/hd_radio_two_ye.html#comments

Last time I emailed Ramsey, he said that it was time to move past HD Radio - surprised to see this post ! :D

I just stopped by the Best Buy at Shady Grove Road Gaithersburg, Md. and they had the in-dash JVC KD-HDR1, but I had to hunt to find it - unlike what Ramsey experienced above, with a plaque to make it stand out, it looked just like the other fifty in-dash radios. I was able to lock in about seven HD stations, but not all were running the HD2 channels - the HD2 channels were nothing special, that couldn't be found on other analog channels, and one had DJ chatter. The HD1 channels sounded exactly like the main analog channels - a total farce. If you all think that carrying HD radios in Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Radio Shack, etc. is going to make any difference, then you are fooling yourselves. I asked the saleman how many HD radios he had sold and he said a few - this Best Buy is in a MAJOR suburb of Wash., D.C. Also, there was no mention of the $40 rebate that is good through June, or HD Radio brochures.
 
Oh yes, there is one other thing - this Best Buy has replaced all but three of its boom-boxes with hi-def TVs, and no more alarm clock radios. They had a few pocket-radios, up front by the cell phones, but that was it. So, if you all think that portable HD radios will sell, if they ever happen, then you too are fooling yourselves. Consumers do not buy portable radios anymore, and certainly not $60 - $100 portable HD radios.
 
PocketRadio said:
The HD1 channels sounded exactly like the main analog channels - a total farce.

Duh! The HD-1 channels are supposed to be a re-broadcast of the main analog station. In digital, however, the sound quality is much improved.
 
scanman1 said:
PocketRadio said:
The HD1 channels sounded exactly like the main analog channels - a total farce.

Duh! The HD-1 channels are supposed to be a re-broadcast of the main analog station. In digital, however, the sound quality is much improved.

Duh, that is what I was implying - the HD1 and analog channels sounded the same in audio quality !
 
PocketRadio said:
scanman1 said:
PocketRadio said:
The HD1 channels sounded exactly like the main analog channels - a total farce.

Duh! The HD-1 channels are supposed to be a re-broadcast of the main analog station. In digital, however, the sound quality is much improved.

Duh, that is what I was implying - the HD1 and analog channels sounded the same in audio quality !

How do you know, you don't even own a radio.
 
PocketRadio said:
"And, two years later, here's a picture of what our industry's efforts have produced at the point of purchase in one Orange County Best Buy. We have a lot of work to do." :D

I was at Best Buy the other day - and went looking for HD radio. Not a single one to be seen - anywhere.
 
R.F. Burns said,
"How do you know, you don't even own a radio."

I thought he said he heard it at a Best Buy.........

Anyway, I, too, was at Best Buy with my son recently. He asked the salesguy to see an HD radio. Before we were shown the unit, he warned us there was only a slim chance we would be able to listen to any station in digital. Sure enough.....nothing. How many people will buy something they can't test out first?

As far as the audio quality is concerned....the station I work for turned on the "HD" about a month ago. None of us notice much, if any, difference at all. (For all you skeptical, bleeding-heart pro-IBOC apologists, we have two table-top monitors and an in-dash unit in our news cruiser.) AND....the handful of our listeners that bought one of these radios to hear us in glorious, near, almost, pretty close to but not quite CD quality, have e-mailed us asking when we will "switch" the HD on! It is inclear whether they can't pick us up in "HD" or they don't notice the difference when it does switch. Either way, not much bang for the buck...me thinks.
 
One possibility is that the radios were switched to the "analog only" position. I can immediately tell the difference at freeway speeds.
 
semoochie said:
One possibility is that the radios were switched to the "analog only" position. I can immediately tell the difference at freeway speeds.

A more probable answer is one that I've noted in my some 40 years making a living in audio related fields: The general public is remarkably ignorant about audio quality.

It's not that they can't tell a difference if you train them, but most people simply have not learned how to listen.
 
Chuck said:
semoochie said:
One possibility is that the radios were switched to the "analog only" position. I can immediately tell the difference at freeway speeds.

A more probable answer is one that I've noted in my some 40 years making a living in audio related fields: The general public is remarkably ignorant about audio quality.

It's not that they can't tell a difference if you train them, but most people simply have not learned how to listen.


If this is true what happened to all of the AM music stations?
 
R.F. Burns said:
Chuck said:
semoochie said:
One possibility is that the radios were switched to the "analog only" position. I can immediately tell the difference at freeway speeds.

A more probable answer is one that I've noted in my some 40 years making a living in audio related fields: The general public is remarkably ignorant about audio quality.

It's not that they can't tell a difference if you train them, but most people simply have not learned how to listen.


If this is true what happened to all of the AM music stations?

Most people can tell the difference when it is drastic. They can learn the subtitles, but most never take the time to do it. Learning how to listen is an art in itself and it is not on most people’s radar screens. In these days of 5 KHz AM bandwidth anyone will notice a difference, but it is probably not foremost in their minds as they listen to a program. For most folks, it’s “good enough.” I will submit that most of the general population simply does not care that much about ultimate audio quality. It may be hard to swallow for radio geeks, but it is true.
How else do you explain 64 KBs MP3 players?

It’s also why 65” HDTV sets have a pair of 4" x 2” speakers in them. The vendors figure that most people who care will connect them up to outboard audio equipment. Some do that, but the reality is most people, even if they do have it connected up to the stereo, do most of their TV watching using the set’s built in speakers. It seems that for a lot of people, they are “good enough.” It's too much of a bother to turn on the audio system when all they want to do is watch the news and tune in "Wheel of Fortune."

What happened with AM did have something to do with audio quality, but mostly it was because many broadcasters eventually moved their more popular offerings to FM and left AM to fend for itself. In some cases, it was a "chicken and egg" situation.

In the early days, it was the broadcasters who lead the way, saying FM sounds better, but it took a long time for most of the public to catch on. Of course, there were early adopters. In fact, in those days, FM didn’t always sound better on most radios. A lot a of AM stations sounded fine, or at least "good enough" for the receivers of the time. The first AM-FM car radio I ever owned was in a ’66 Mustang. It sounded almost exactly the same in AM as it did in FM. About the only difference was the kind of interference you got. FM suffered from multi-path and picket fencing. AM was subject to static and fades. That car radio was mono, so there wasn’t much ‘wow” factor to it. Being an audio geek, to get “wow” I had to install a Muntz 4 track tape player and four new speakers. Even that was hardly High Fidelity, but my friends were sure impressed.

Back to a historical perspective of “What happened to AM:”

In the early 1960's when I was in high school, I was a huge fan of FM, but most of my peers listened to AM because they preferred the content. They were OK with the sound of AM at that time. It was content that they wanted, not fidelity. Even if FM did sound better, there was nothing they wanted to listen to on FM.

When the FCC put an end to simulcasting AM & FM signals, someone took a brave step and put some top 40 music on FM radio. Those programmers took a really big chance and even offended some audio purists who were unhappy that the riff-raff had now penetrated their inner sanctum. As they say, “there goes the neighborhood.”

Since they could no longer simulcast their AM programming, some stations owners found they could hire a few $2.00 per hour employees who happened to be well versed in the world of "underground rock." It didn't cost very much to do, so they put them on the air. That programming decision coincided with the Viet Nam War and all its ramifications. Meanwhile, a large civil rights movement was underway as was the birth of the "Free Love" era. Those were a lot of changes happening simultaneously. Some of them had a lot to do with the availability of lots of pharmaceuticals, both legal - the birth control pill - and illegal which I won't bother to innumerate here. It was a time of big change, and the content that was wanted by the people who were involved in those movements happened to be on FM. Why? Because the station owners found it was cheap to provide. To many people’s amazement, it caught on. It seems there were a lot of us baby-boomers.

Thanks in parts to "better living through chemistry" stereo became important, and we even got into things like Quad. Some of it did sound better, and a lot of people learned to appreciate better audio as a result. Many GI's who found themselves stationed in Southeast Asia at our government's expense, took their paychecks to the PX on the base and came home with exotic audio equipment from companies like Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, Akai, TEAC, etc. Prior to that time, those brands were relatively unknown in the US. Many were marketed under the names of their importers (Roberts tape recorders for instance were really from Akai). The influx of all this bargain price mid to high end audio equipment did a great deal to fuel the interest in high fidelity in the home and car. FM came along for the ride. It was at the right place at the right time.

FM's success wasn’t just because of the better audio quality. It was manly because the content these people wanted to hear was on FM, and they LEARNED that it also sounded better. It was not an instant revolution caused simply by better frequency response and higher signal to noise ratio. Most people still don't know what those terms mean. They've never taken the time to learn.

As it turns out, what happened to AM is a lot more complicated than “FM has better frequency response.” It was as much a socio-economic phenomenon as anything. A lot of seemingly non-related events happened simultaneously with the popularization of FM. They are interrelated. To be sure, technology was involved, but to say that FM flourished and AM withered solely because FM sounds better would be ignoring a lot of history.

R.F, - From our Internet discussions I know that you are enough of an audiophile to realize that your standards in audio are quite different than most people's. You like listening to your vintage high end equipment that you've worked hard to accumulate. In fact, I’ll bet that accumulating it has been part of the fun. On the other-hand, your neighbor is probably quite content listening to his plastic boom-box that is running on low batteries, producing awful amounts of distortion.

Living proof that there is a level where most people think sound is “good enough” can be found at most large stores. We've all seen the $99-199 all-in-one surround sound systems for sale at mass merchandisers. These things include a DVD player, a 6 channel 100 watt (or so claimed) amplifier, AM-FM tuner, wireless remote, and a compliment of five tiny speakers and a subwoofer. It is quite remarkable for the money. Many sound terrible (although some aren't too bad for casual listening). It doesn't matter. They sell very well. Do you know why? It's because they are cheap, and the public either can’t tell, or just doesn't care enough about audio quality to spend any more money. In short, they are “good enough.”

For 99% of the population, there is a level where "good enough" is all they want. They have no interest in taking the time to learn to listen. It is hard for those of us who are very close to the issue to realize, but not everyone wants to be an audiophile.
 
"R.F, - From our Internet discussions I know that you are enough of an audiophile to realize that your standards in audio are quite different than most people's. You like listening to your vintage high end equipment that you've worked hard to accumulate. In fact, I’ll bet that accumulating it has been part of the fun. On the other-hand, your neighbor is probably quite content listening to his plastic boom-box that is running on low batteries, producing awful amounts of distortion. "

No doubt, but there's a big difference between a boom box and the sound of AM radio. AM radio audio has long been surpassed and that is part of the reason that the general public does not listen to anything other than talk formats on AM radio. Even at 15 Khz, AM radio has all sorts of obvious sonic problems. The numbers of under 30 year olds who listen, or should I say don't listen to AM radio is very telling.
 
R.F. Burns said:
Even at 15 Khz, AM radio has all sorts of obvious sonic problems. The numbers of under 30 year olds who listen, or should I say don't listen to AM radio is very telling.

Probably so, but HD is not going to fix that without a lot of other things happening simultaneously. There are simply too many other choices these days, with a lot more coming on the horizon. Most of these technologies have more to do with content and convenience than they have to do with audio quality. People ARE listening to music on their cell phones. Most folks are happy with "good enough" audio quality assuming it is something the want to hear.

At best, HD on AM is putting a band-aid on an open wound that really requires stitches.
 
Chuck said:
For 99% of the population, there is a level where "good enough" is all they want. They have no interest in taking the time to learn to listen. It is hard for those of us who are very close to the issue to realize, but not everyone wants to be an audiophile.

"AM IBOC Nighttime Compatibility"

"However, because distance listeners are highly-motivated to listen, even under extremely adverse analog interference conditions, they may be more tolerant of additional IBOC interference than a typical listener would be."

http://www.nrscstandards.org/DRB/iBiquity AM nighttime studies/AM Nighttime Compatibility report.pdf

Great point - even iBiquity agrees with you !
 
R.F. Burns said:
PocketRadio said:
scanman1 said:
PocketRadio said:
The HD1 channels sounded exactly like the main analog channels - a total farce.

Duh! The HD-1 channels are supposed to be a re-broadcast of the main analog station. In digital, however, the sound quality is much improved.

Duh, that is what I was implying - the HD1 and analog channels sounded the same in audio quality !

How do you know, you don't even own a radio.

I'm sure Pocket own's several radios, just not the HD radios you are here to promote.
Why should Pocket or anyone buy HD radios when HD radio buyers are unhappy, reviewers almost universally pan the HD technology and the HD products, and even dealers can't get them to work satisfactorily.
 
SUPERCASTER said:
I'm sure Pocket own's several radios, just not the HD radios you are here to promote.
I doubt RF is here to promote HD radios. Again your bias leaks through. He speaks of experience and you speak of Dogma.

Why should Pocket or anyone buy HD radios when HD radio buyers are unhappy, reviewers almost universally pan the HD technology and the HD products, and even dealers can't get them to work satisfactorily.

You claim
reviewers almost universally pan the HD technology and the HD products,

How about a reality check. Every positive link here is labeled a "Shill Piece" or has an agenda unless YOU agree with it. I do NOT believe "reviewers almost universally pan the HD technology and the HD products". You only reach this decision when you dismiss all positive information (Including the FCC rules) as a "Carne Shill".

Your "Universal Pan" is just a false claim.

And if you don't like HD and don't want to buy an HD radio then DON'T...

But if you never owned one, Don't understand one and just repeat crap from sources like the East Bay Express you are... just opinionated.. Nothing more.

Clouseau
 
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