I
IBOCRocks
Guest
zumahans said:
You bolded only one part of three.
Not a cartel.
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Hi-Fi AM demodulator testing w/IBOC
- Thread starter Tom Wells
- Start date
You bolded only one part of three.
Not a cartel.
Z
zumahans
Guest
---->You bolded only one part of three.
Cartel: a combination of producers of any product joined together to control its production, an association by agreement of companies having common interests, designed to prevent competition and allocate markets, and to promote the exchange of knowledge resulting from scientific and technical research and stadardization of products. - Blacks Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, p. 195.
HD Alliance is made up of the standard suspects: Univision radio, ABC, CBS, Clear Channel, Beaseley, all the big players. - http://www.hdradio.com/press_room.php#alliancemembers
Legal fact: cartels are not by themselves illegal in the United States, there are many specifically allowed, and U.S. anti-cartel laws are very weak. Source: Callmann on Unfair Competition, Trademarks and Monopolies (4th Edition), Part I. Basic Concepts: Chapter 1. Protection Against Unfair Competition , pp. 13-15.
(I'm studying law, this business law course is this semester).
Make you feel better? Looks like a cartel, acts like a cartel, quacks like a cartel.
Ask your wife to borrow Callman on Unfair Competition, or maybe she has a Westlaw account to look at it on.
Cartel: a combination of producers of any product joined together to control its production, an association by agreement of companies having common interests, designed to prevent competition and allocate markets, and to promote the exchange of knowledge resulting from scientific and technical research and stadardization of products. - Blacks Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, p. 195.
HD Alliance is made up of the standard suspects: Univision radio, ABC, CBS, Clear Channel, Beaseley, all the big players. - http://www.hdradio.com/press_room.php#alliancemembers
Legal fact: cartels are not by themselves illegal in the United States, there are many specifically allowed, and U.S. anti-cartel laws are very weak. Source: Callmann on Unfair Competition, Trademarks and Monopolies (4th Edition), Part I. Basic Concepts: Chapter 1. Protection Against Unfair Competition , pp. 13-15.
(I'm studying law, this business law course is this semester).
Make you feel better? Looks like a cartel, acts like a cartel, quacks like a cartel.
Ask your wife to borrow Callman on Unfair Competition, or maybe she has a Westlaw account to look at it on.
I
IBOCRocks
Guest
zumahans said:---->You bolded only one part of three.
Cartel: a combination of producers of any product joined together to control its production, an association by agreement of companies having common interests, designed to prevent competition and allocate markets, and to promote the exchange of knowledge resulting from scientific and technical research and stadardization of products. - Blacks Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, p. 195.
HD Alliance is made up of the standard suspects: Univision radio, ABC, CBS, Clear Channel, Beaseley, all the big players. - http://www.hdradio.com/press_room.php#alliancemembers
Legal fact: cartels are not by themselves illegal in the United States, there are many specifically allowed, and U.S. anti-cartel laws are very weak. Source: Callmann on Unfair Competition, Trademarks and Monopolies (4th Edition), Part I. Basic Concepts: Chapter 1. Protection Against Unfair Competition , pp. 13-15.
(I'm studying law, this business law course is this semester).
Make you feel better? Looks like a cartel, acts like a cartel, quacks like a cartel.
Ask your wife to borrow Callman on Unfair Competition, or maybe she has a Westlaw account to look at it on.
My wife is not a lawyer.
Anyway, it still doesn't fit the definition, unless your bias looks at it that way. The key element is that there is no requirement to go digital in order to conduct biz, nor does the alliance control the price or availability of anything related to HD Radio.
P
PLL
Guest
"Anyway, it still doesn't fit the definition, unless your bias looks at it that way. The key element is that there is no requirement to go digital in order to conduct biz, nor does the alliance control the price or availability of anything related to HD Radio."
The Cartel does control the price of HD Radio, because iBiquity gets a share of the outrageous prices - you are just paying for HD Radio up-front, then eventaully, there will be advertising on the HD channels.
The Cartel does control the price of HD Radio, because iBiquity gets a share of the outrageous prices - you are just paying for HD Radio up-front, then eventaully, there will be advertising on the HD channels.
I
I.B. Iquity
Guest
Where does it say that a station MUST operate digitally? Who says they can't spen their dollars, if they wish on Mr. Kahn's system? I keep reading how he intends to explain how his system works but there still no radios are available. No one says that you can't develope your own digital system either. It's all about being anti Ibiquity.
Z
zumahans
Guest
----> It's all about being anti Ibiquity.
No, it's all about being anti-corporate radio. I could care less about a little company that is likely to blow away like so much dust in the corridors of the Museum of Creaky Old Broadcasting: quad sound generators, AM stereo exciters, buggy whips, crystal sets....
No, it's all about being anti-corporate radio. I could care less about a little company that is likely to blow away like so much dust in the corridors of the Museum of Creaky Old Broadcasting: quad sound generators, AM stereo exciters, buggy whips, crystal sets....
I
I.B. Iquity
Guest
and what is your problem with "corporate" radio? Maybe we're getting to the bottom of this. Do you have trouble with the establishment? How do you feel about Microsoft (who's practices have been questioned in the past) or GM? Do you feel that the larger broadcasting companies should be broken up and if so why? Not everyone can work for a Mom & Pop operation. Call stations all over the country and you'll hear, "Hello Clear Channel radio (town) may I help you?"
Z
zumahans
Guest
Oooo, I feel like I'm being psychoanalyzed here.
Ready the anal probes, Dr. Freud, here we go
---->and what is your problem with "corporate" radio?
It sucks.
----->Maybe we're getting to the bottom of this. Do you have trouble with the establishment?
Yes, Dr. Ibiquity. I detest authority. Just last week I torched a police car, overturned the firetruck and threw rotten eggs at the man.
----->How do you feel about Microsoft
I only buy apples. And pears.
------> GM?
"Hello On-Star? The transmission just fell out of my brand new Yukon." ( - the preceeding was an actual OnStar communication)
----->Do you feel that the larger broadcasting companies should be broken up and if so why?
In 8,000 words or less? EIGHT WORDS? OK.
Yes. So David Eduardo would go back to Peru.
------->Not everyone can work for a Mom & Pop operation.
Damn, someone better tell Rupert Murdoch's kids to dust off their resumes.
----->Call stations all over the country and you'll hear, "Hello Clear Channel radio (town) may I help you?"
No, call a Clear Channel station and you'll get an automated voicemail system announcement tracked by some hourly schlub in a non-union hub, and then no return call.
Am I being charged for this psychoanalylsis?
Ready the anal probes, Dr. Freud, here we go
---->and what is your problem with "corporate" radio?
It sucks.
----->Maybe we're getting to the bottom of this. Do you have trouble with the establishment?
Yes, Dr. Ibiquity. I detest authority. Just last week I torched a police car, overturned the firetruck and threw rotten eggs at the man.
----->How do you feel about Microsoft
I only buy apples. And pears.
------> GM?
"Hello On-Star? The transmission just fell out of my brand new Yukon." ( - the preceeding was an actual OnStar communication)
----->Do you feel that the larger broadcasting companies should be broken up and if so why?
In 8,000 words or less? EIGHT WORDS? OK.
Yes. So David Eduardo would go back to Peru.
------->Not everyone can work for a Mom & Pop operation.
Damn, someone better tell Rupert Murdoch's kids to dust off their resumes.
----->Call stations all over the country and you'll hear, "Hello Clear Channel radio (town) may I help you?"
No, call a Clear Channel station and you'll get an automated voicemail system announcement tracked by some hourly schlub in a non-union hub, and then no return call.
Am I being charged for this psychoanalylsis?
P
PLL
Guest
"Yes. So David Eduardo would go back to Peru."
Actually, it is David Gleason - ask dxAce on rec.radio.shortwave:
http://davidgleason.com/
Actually, it is David Gleason - ask dxAce on rec.radio.shortwave:
http://davidgleason.com/
The word "cartel" is appropriate, because these parties have banded together, and in order to further their financial interests, they have *influenced* a regulatory body to permit them a special dispensation to squander and pollute the publics' resources, in EXACTLY the sort of way the rules were created to prohibit.
Maybe we could band band together and form the Spubifwity Corp, and develop a "technology" to dematerialize money from bank vaults. All we need to do is get some laws suspended to permit our research. I don't see any problems with this plan, do you?
It is no different from a car audio amplifier manufacturer getting all local anti-noise ordinances revoked federally.
We would lose protection of our reasonable expectation of quiet. It would be telling us all that our previous enjoyment of peace and quiet was nice, but that we were never entitled to it.
This is why people are mad.
Ibiquity is *stealing* our airwaves, and devaluing the our radios.
The more one has spent on a good radio, the more greatly IBOC diminishes the quality of the audio.
I have less of a problem with IBOC FM..it further defines geographically the "market" in a way beneficial to the broadcaster, just as moving FM from 40-50 Mhz to 88-108 tightened the markets. Original FM station owners on the low band were horrified that "their" listeners might be able to listen to out of market signals, or worse yet have them "captured" by a stronger signal on skip. Major Armstrong had no problem with this aspect of propogation, he was an engineer. But it was the real reason FM migrated. No one wanted a service with such variability.
At 88-108, the behavior is much more semi-optical, and far easier to define in "markets".
However, the buzz on FM is enough to make tuning difficult on tuneable radios, and the capture effect makes it just as easy for the detector to try to lock onto the buzz as the FM deviation. It's almost as if the the FM-IBOC is an anti-AFC signal. It seems just like tuning on old 1950's or 1960's radio with no AFC.
But at least there's little noise injected into the analog.
With the AM, there's just no way to call it "compatible" unless you listen on 2000 ohm high-impedance magnetic headphones like you see in pictures of the 1920's.
It might be possible to add DSP to the hissy audio off an AM, and let the DSP reshape the wave into something similar to a clean signal.
This would be a good idea for a new product, a device that makes a radio signal sound OK after being chewed up by
Ibiquity. Who wants to invest in this exciting business opportunity?
Maybe we could band band together and form the Spubifwity Corp, and develop a "technology" to dematerialize money from bank vaults. All we need to do is get some laws suspended to permit our research. I don't see any problems with this plan, do you?
It is no different from a car audio amplifier manufacturer getting all local anti-noise ordinances revoked federally.
We would lose protection of our reasonable expectation of quiet. It would be telling us all that our previous enjoyment of peace and quiet was nice, but that we were never entitled to it.
This is why people are mad.
Ibiquity is *stealing* our airwaves, and devaluing the our radios.
The more one has spent on a good radio, the more greatly IBOC diminishes the quality of the audio.
I have less of a problem with IBOC FM..it further defines geographically the "market" in a way beneficial to the broadcaster, just as moving FM from 40-50 Mhz to 88-108 tightened the markets. Original FM station owners on the low band were horrified that "their" listeners might be able to listen to out of market signals, or worse yet have them "captured" by a stronger signal on skip. Major Armstrong had no problem with this aspect of propogation, he was an engineer. But it was the real reason FM migrated. No one wanted a service with such variability.
At 88-108, the behavior is much more semi-optical, and far easier to define in "markets".
However, the buzz on FM is enough to make tuning difficult on tuneable radios, and the capture effect makes it just as easy for the detector to try to lock onto the buzz as the FM deviation. It's almost as if the the FM-IBOC is an anti-AFC signal. It seems just like tuning on old 1950's or 1960's radio with no AFC.
But at least there's little noise injected into the analog.
With the AM, there's just no way to call it "compatible" unless you listen on 2000 ohm high-impedance magnetic headphones like you see in pictures of the 1920's.
It might be possible to add DSP to the hissy audio off an AM, and let the DSP reshape the wave into something similar to a clean signal.
This would be a good idea for a new product, a device that makes a radio signal sound OK after being chewed up by
Ibiquity. Who wants to invest in this exciting business opportunity?
Z
zumahans
Guest
David is never shy about his real name, to his credit.
Jeez, I sound like a suckup.
Jeez, I sound like a suckup.
I
I.B. Iquity
Guest
And again (for the hundreth time) who said a station is FORCED to convert to IBOC? No one is being force to do anything. You act as though, if you don't pay off Ibiquity you will have your station taken away, it won't happen. Feel free to broadcast in D-Cam or any other format you please. no one is stopping you!!!
Z
zumahans
Guest
---->And again (for the hundreth time) who said a station is FORCED to convert to IBOC?
The market is being manipulated by a technology agreed upon by the IBOC supporters, and all the other stations are forced to adapt or die.
And didn't the U.S. Justice Department have to give some sort of antitrust exemption for the creation of this technology?
The market is being manipulated by a technology agreed upon by the IBOC supporters, and all the other stations are forced to adapt or die.
And didn't the U.S. Justice Department have to give some sort of antitrust exemption for the creation of this technology?
I
IBOCRocks
Guest
zumahans said:I.B. Iquity said:And again (for the hundreth time) who said a station is FORCED to convert to IBOC?
The market is being manipulated by a technology agreed upon by the IBOC supporters, and all the other stations are forced to adapt or die.
And didn't the U.S. Justice Department have to give some sort of antitrust exemption for the creation of this technology?
Hold up. Adapt or die? According to you it's going to die either way.
First it's "nobody wants HD", then it's "you'll die if you don't have it".
Which is it? A dead technology, or a technology you need or you're dead?
P
PLL
Guest
"And again (for the hundreth time) who said a station is FORCED to convert to IBOC? No one is being force to do anything."
Clear Channel is forcing their stations to convert - I talked with WLW, a while back, and asked them directly, if they were being forced to convert to IBOC, and they avoided the question, by not answering.
http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/iboc/01_rw_cc_iboc_2.shtml
Clear Channel is forcing their stations to convert - I talked with WLW, a while back, and asked them directly, if they were being forced to convert to IBOC, and they avoided the question, by not answering.
http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/iboc/01_rw_cc_iboc_2.shtml
A
audiophile.
Guest
No licensees are being forced YET... (engineers is another story).
But those on receiving end of interference are adversly affected.
I was in shocked at how reckless some the big broadcasters comments were in this proceeding.
But those on receiving end of interference are adversly affected.
I was in shocked at how reckless some the big broadcasters comments were in this proceeding.
I
IBOCRocks
Guest
SayNoToIBOC said:"And again (for the hundreth time) who said a station is FORCED to convert to IBOC? No one is being force to do anything."
Clear Channel is forcing their stations to convert - I talked with WLW, a while back, and asked them directly, if they were being forced to convert to IBOC, and they avoided the question, by not answering.
SayNoToIBOC,
If ClearChannel owns the station, then there is no force necessary to convert. You can't force yourself to do anything. The engineer cannot be "forced", either, since he is not the licensee.
Nice try, though.
P
PLL
Guest
"If ClearChannel owns the station, then there is no force to convert. You can't force yourself to do anything. The engineer cannot be forced, either, since he is no the licensee."
Same difference, you are just playing on words - WLW's engineer obvioulsy didn't want to convert, or talk about it.
Same difference, you are just playing on words - WLW's engineer obvioulsy didn't want to convert, or talk about it.
Z
zumahans
Guest
----->Hold up. Adapt or die? According to you it's going to die either way.
------>First it's "nobody wants HD",
No listener demand.
-----> then it's "you'll die if you don't have it".
For the stations. The listeners are already walking down the gangplank. Have you tried to find AAA in LA. Country in NYC? Jazz in Fresno?
------->Which is it? A dead technology,
Dead on arrival, no consumer demand.
----->or a technology you need or you're dead?
For dinosaur radio stations, anxious to avoid the coming evolution.
Actually, IBOC is both a floor wax and a desert topping.
------>First it's "nobody wants HD",
No listener demand.
-----> then it's "you'll die if you don't have it".
For the stations. The listeners are already walking down the gangplank. Have you tried to find AAA in LA. Country in NYC? Jazz in Fresno?
------->Which is it? A dead technology,
Dead on arrival, no consumer demand.
----->or a technology you need or you're dead?
For dinosaur radio stations, anxious to avoid the coming evolution.
Actually, IBOC is both a floor wax and a desert topping.
Z
zumahans
Guest
------>"The HD Alliance fits at least a couple of your cartel definitions."
Autopaint 1----->Please continue. Show me how these definitions apply and go into some proven detail. Use facts which I can investigate and respond to.
Did you wife find her lawbooks on antitrust, collusion, marketplace manipulation, and cartels yet?
Autopaint 1----->Please continue. Show me how these definitions apply and go into some proven detail. Use facts which I can investigate and respond to.
Did you wife find her lawbooks on antitrust, collusion, marketplace manipulation, and cartels yet?
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