How long until WPAT Switches format?

[davideduardo]

I do remember Rumba not doing so well when they tried to do a Dominican format.

Rumba did several format variants, but none was a merengue based one; bachata at the time was not the factor it is today.

Rumba had the problem that its signals had minimal penetration of the City and the boroughs.

Por lo tanto,more Dominicans have left NY than new arrivals have come from the republic in the last decade. So where is the growth? Why be Spanish focus when the growth is not with that demographic....

Per Arbitron data, Dominicans are the largest single group of listeners to Spanish language radio, followed by the Grancolombian segment.

I see 93.1 being sold off.

Unlikely. The only advantage SBS has in New York is having two full B signals (yeah, WPAT is operating at a variance for the moment... but it behaves like a B)

 

[Morpheux]

It sounds very complicated. And you wonder why a company isn't willing to risk a $75 million investment on it?

Actually,this is science to me. That's why I was able to break it down to you.

 

[Morpheux]

I do remember Rumba not doing so well when they tried to do a Dominican format.

Rumba did several format variants, but none was a merengue based one; bachata at the time was not the factor it is today.

Rumba had the problem that its signals had minimal penetration of the City and the boroughs.

Por lo tanto,more Dominicans have left NY than new arrivals have come from the republic in the last decade. So where is the growth? Why be Spanish focus when the growth is not with that demographic....

Per Arbitron data, Dominicans are the largest single group of listeners to Spanish language radio, followed by the Grancolombian segment.

I see 93.1 being sold off.

Unlikely. The only advantage SBS has in New York is having two full B signals (yeah, WPAT is operating at a variance for the moment... but it behaves like a B)

So Rumba had a signal problem? Sounds like Pulse to me. Oh..you say Bachata is bigger now? When was the last time Bachata was on the Top 10 iTunes list? However,dance songs are constantly on the iTunes top 10. EDM festivals are the rage from NY to Iowa...bachata still has to share the stage with Reggaeton,Latin Pop,Merengue and Salsa.

 

[davideduardo]

So Rumba had a signal problem? Sounds like Pulse to me.

Rumba did not have signal problems. What Rumba had was a collection of limited, Class A FMs in ultra-suburban areas at the fringe of the NYC metro.

107.1 Hampton Bays. 65 dbu coverage of 120,000 persons at the far East End.
107.1 Long Branch. 65 dbu coverage of 387,000 persons in the Monmouth / Ocean market
107.1 Belvedere. 65 dbu coverage of 167,000 people in the Allentown / Bethlehem market.

So, basically, the signals covered less than a half-million people in a market of 18.4 million... about 2.5% of the total. And Hispanic coverage was even lower in percentage.

Rumba was a last-ditch and desperate idea by Big City to try to avoid having to liquidate. It did not work, and the parts were sold for much less than they paid for them.

Rumba can't be used to make any valid conclusion regarding formats. At best, it's an example of misdirection and mismanagement.

Pulse, on the other hand, covered quite a few million listeners deep in the metro.

Oh..you say Bachata is bigger now? When was the last time Bachata was on the Top 10 iTunes list?

Among Hispanics, and the subject is the best format for an Hispanic owned and operated station, bachata is huge. Artists like Prince Royce and Romeo Santos rack up millions of downloads, and the songs get played on Spanish language pop, AC, tropical, rhythmic and even Regional Mexican stations nationwide. They chart from the US to Chile, and the artists win Latin Grammys left and right.

However,dance songs are constantly on the iTunes top 10. EDM festivals are the rage from NY to Iowa...bachata still has to share the stage with Reggaeton,Latin Pop,Merengue and Salsa.

My mention of bachata was strictly in the context of discussing any past efforts at pleasing Dominican listeners; bachata has become mainstream only in the last decade and due to modern artists like Monchy & Alexandra, Aventura and others. In fact, even in the Dominican Republic a merengue-centered station would not play bachata in the 80's and 90's... when I was programming Z-101 in la República we would not have ever, ever considered playing a bachata, in fact.

So the issue is not whether bachata sells nationwide. It is about the appeal of merengue, bachata and other tropical genres in New York, principally among Dominicans. It's really quite conceivable that the latest Prince Royce album and individual songs have outsold "EDM only" dance songs (those not played on mainstream CHRs) by a considerable factor in the New York metro.

 

[Barry]

A recent article in InsideRadio states that SBS CEO Raul Alarcon is open to selling some stations, for the right price, and downsizing the company.
Perhaps that is why SBS has not gone through the effort and expense to make major changes to WPAT 93.1, despite poor ratings. Alarcon has said that he has received numerous offers for some of their stations. Maybe there have been some serious bids for WPAT. The vast majority of Hispanic listeners may be satisfied with the other 3 Spanish language FM's, leaving little room for a Spanish language format that would justify a major signal.
I could imagine Cumulus would love to have a fourth station in Market #1, as is befitting for a major broadcaster. Perhaps if they bought WPAT, they could put some Cumulus talk programming there, and music on 94.7.

 

[davideduardo]

A recent article in InsideRadio states that SBS CEO Raul Alarcon is open to selling some stations, for the right price, and downsizing the company.

If you read the article, you can see that Alarcon was making "politically correct" answer that told investors that "the company is open minded and willing to adapt".

Investors have been pushing to get SBS to spin the TV operation, which loses money, not radio. "Stations" as a word applies to TV stations as well as to radio stations. Thus you can't read much into the comment.

Perhaps that is why SBS has not gone through the effort and expense to make major changes to WPAT 93.1, despite poor ratings.

They've spent millions in changing formats on WRMA and KXOL, hiring DJ Laz from Beasley, all with the intent of creating a cross-generational Hispanic format that would be put on in Chicago and NY as well.

Alarcon has said that he has received numerous offers for some of their stations.

Any smaller operator of a big signal in any of the larger metros has received more offers than they can count. Despite all the issues facing radio, a top 10 market station can still be enormously profitable.

The vast majority of Hispanic listeners may be satisfied with the other 3 Spanish language FM's, leaving little room for a Spanish language format that would justify a major signal.

First, about half of all Hispanics use English language stations... some use both English and Spanish. So Hispanics are not "satisfied" with the three stations because they use dozens of stations...

There are many potentially viable formats in Spanish that are not being done in New York. The lack of available signals is the principal reason, of course.

 

[TonySantiago]

It sounds very complicated. And you wonder why a company isn't willing to risk a $75 million investment on it?

If you know the music and know the direction it needs, it's not complicated.

 

[davideduardo]

It sounds very complicated. And you wonder why a company isn't willing to risk a $75 million investment on it?

If you know the music and know the direction it needs, it's not complicated.

what is complicated is the revenue model.

 

[luperm]

what is complicated is the revenue model.

...and there's your simple explanation.

Again, the proponent of any format that suits their particular musical tastes can spin random anecdotal observations about supposedly sold out music festivals, concerts, and iTunes charts to support their cause. But there is no rationale to support the argument that a corporation should risk a $75 million+ investment on a hunch. It's not rational, and if you are a stockholder or owner, you don't your management team acting that way.

 

[Barry]

There are many potentially viable formats in Spanish that are not being done in New York. The lack of available signals is the principal reason, of course.
[/quote]

Could you provide some examples of formats in Spanish that could do well enough to put on a major signal, such as WPAT?

 

[Morpheux]

There are no simple explanations....just simple answers. Someone once said "The answer may surprise you, and if you're an investor, it may excite you". We will revisit this thread a few years from now and see who is right.

 

[Morpheux]

So Rumba had a signal problem? Sounds like Pulse to me.

Rumba did not have signal problems. What Rumba had was a collection of limited, Class A FMs in ultra-suburban areas at the fringe of the NYC metro.

107.1 Hampton Bays. 65 dbu coverage of 120,000 persons at the far East End.
107.1 Long Branch. 65 dbu coverage of 387,000 persons in the Monmouth / Ocean market
107.1 Belvedere. 65 dbu coverage of 167,000 people in the Allentown / Bethlehem market.

So, basically, the signals covered less than a half-million people in a market of 18.4 million... about 2.5% of the total. And Hispanic coverage was even lower in percentage.

Rumba was a last-ditch and desperate idea by Big City to try to avoid having to liquidate. It did not work, and the parts were sold for much less than they paid for them.

Rumba can't be used to make any valid conclusion regarding formats. At best, it's an example of misdirection and mismanagement.

Pulse, on the other hand, covered quite a few million listeners deep in the metro.

Oh..you say Bachata is bigger now? When was the last time Bachata was on the Top 10 iTunes list?

Among Hispanics, and the subject is the best format for an Hispanic owned and operated station, bachata is huge. Artists like Prince Royce and Romeo Santos rack up millions of downloads, and the songs get played on Spanish language pop, AC, tropical, rhythmic and even Regional Mexican stations nationwide. They chart from the US to Chile, and the artists win Latin Grammys left and right.

However,dance songs are constantly on the iTunes top 10. EDM festivals are the rage from NY to Iowa...bachata still has to share the stage with Reggaeton,Latin Pop,Merengue and Salsa.

My mention of bachata was strictly in the context of discussing any past efforts at pleasing Dominican listeners; bachata has become mainstream only in the last decade and due to modern artists like Monchy & Alexandra, Aventura and others. In fact, even in the Dominican Republic a merengue-centered station would not play bachata in the 80's and 90's... when I was programming Z-101 in la República we would not have ever, ever considered playing a bachata, in fact.

So the issue is not whether bachata sells nationwide. It is about the appeal of merengue, bachata and other tropical genres in New York, principally among Dominicans. It's really quite conceivable that the latest Prince Royce album and individual songs have outsold "EDM only" dance songs (those not played on mainstream CHRs) by a considerable factor in the New York metro.

David,last year you were railing against bachata and merengue.Now,you are presenting it as the savior to WPAT. Hey,at least you now know who Prince Royce is.Last year you didn't. Monchy Y Alexandra? They havent had a hit in five years. Btw,haven't you guys learned your lesson when you programmed Reggaeton nonstop 24 hours a day? Ahora, it will be Bachata 24/7 lol. You guys are so one dimensional. Like I said... "The answer may surprise you, and if you're an investor, it may excite you".

 

[luperm]

A few years from now is a few years from now. It will be a different set of facts. If someone came on this board a few years ago and said that there would be 2 sports talkers on FM, they would have been laughed out of here.

 

[Morpheux]

I give it a year...and quite frankly. I don't see too many facts here but rather circumstantial data to back their bias. I guarantee you that all the nay sayers here think dance music is disposable.

 

[TonySantiago]

Do we need the sources of revenue here? Okay, I'll spell some out......

1) Of course, the clubs are going to advertise on such a station. Which is always a good thing especially the fact that more clubs are OPENING in the NYC area come next year! Space, which is a big club in Miami, is coming to NYC. There's a UK club, I forget the name, coming over. Of course you have the suburban clubs that will advertise (such as Rise).

2) The target audience is primarily 18-34, though you have those that skew older that would rather hear current dance as well. That audience is already "linked up". That's where the computer companies and cell phone companies come in. ALSO, expect more advertising from those tech companies selling "apps" for their specific products whether it's a game or for functionality.

3) Other revenue sources? Fast food companies, beverage companies (especially those selling alcohol and energy drinks), travel agencies (the young crowd does WANT to travel), car dealerships, clothing stores (men and women, because they have to look good going out).

I can spell out TONS more, but for what I'm referring to here, we're not just talking "mom and pop". We are talking mainstream sources that are already advertising in magazines and television using an EDM/lounge setting. This isn't 10 years ago, heck this isn't even 3 years ago! A lot has progressed here and advertisers/radio execs would be smacking themselves in the head after realizing that, HEY...there is a PROFIT BASE here.

Maybe you guys need to hire me and Morpheux because since most of you ARE biased, you're never going to open your eyes to see what WE can see. If you want to call it "thinking outside the box", that's fine. But the situation NOW for dance music is much better than it was a few years ago. This cycle is riding hard....jump on it before it's too late!

 

[davideduardo]

Do we need the sources of revenue here? Okay, I'll spell some out......

Of course, the clubs are going to advertise on such a station.

Club business is low rate, cash-in-advance. It's only advantage is that it can run heavily in the evening... which is time the majority of advertisers won't buy.

The target audience is primarily 18-34... That's where the computer companies and cell phone companies come in...

Those are all agency accounts. They buy by CPP, not format. You have to do very, very well to get them because when 18-34 is bought, they don't generally buy very deep.

Other revenue sources? Fast food companies, beverage companies (especially those selling alcohol and energy drinks), travel agencies (the young crowd does WANT to travel), car dealerships, clothing stores (men and women, because they have to look good going out).

I can't recall hearing travel agencies on the radio in decades. It's a dying, old-people-on-a-cruise business. Young people are expedia.com et. al. users.

Fast food, soft drinks, etc. are again agency accounts. If you are #3 in 18-49 playing Chinese gongs all day, you get bought if the CPP meets the goals. Alcoholic beverages... if you get a significant teen component in the total audience, you will not get bought.

We are talking mainstream sources that are already advertising in magazines and television using an EDM/lounge setting.

If it is an agency account... and nearly everything you mention, except clubs and travel agencies is... and it is using other media and not radio, they won't add radio just to be on a dance station. Clients select media based on either research or empirical experience and belief in which medium or media will sell their offering. A radio station, in 99.999% of the occasions, can't get radio added to a budget just because "it fits the lifestyle."

A lot has progressed here and advertisers/radio execs would be smacking themselves in the head after realizing that, HEY...there is a PROFIT BASE here.

Except for the club business, which would be a tiny percent of the amount a NYC FM has to bill, every other sale is predicated on ratings in a transactional market like New York. with a format that is likely / obviously going to underperform in monings, you leave the gate at a disadvantage since most business is placed in 6 AM to 7 PM, not the 3 PM to Midnight peak for the dance stations that have existed in recent history.

Maybe you guys need to hire me and Morpheux because since most of you ARE biased, you're never going to open your eyes to see what WE can see. If you want to call it "thinking outside the box", that's fine. But the situation NOW for dance music is much better than it was a few years ago. This cycle is riding hard....jump on it before it's too late!

I think most of the desire to hear dance or rhythmic music is covered by KTU, the rhythmic tracks on Z-100, etc. The more flanking that exists in a market, the less audience is left for the core sound.

And, at the end of the day, in 18-34 you have to be in the very upper echelon of stations in Arbitron to get on buys... remember that most buys are 25-54, followed by 18-49, followed by some subset of 25-54 or 18-49 and then 18-34.

And all of that is before you come to grips with the fact that dance listeners are like alternative rock listeners... get 10 of them together, and each will like considerably different blends of music and a single station will get perhaps 25% total satisfaction and 75% peeps who bitch and moan about the mix and blend and compare it with the superior blend on their iPod or smartphone...

 

[davideduardo]

David,last year you were railing against bachata and merengue.

Merengue and bachata, as a component of a more mainstream 18-34 format was not a good idea. Today, merengue as anything but an accent for 18-34, is not a good idea. Bachata is a genre that has come from being irrelevant, even on major stations in Santo Domingo, to a position of prominence.

And my position was, a couple of years ago, based on what would be appropriate for play on an 18-34 / 18-49 targeted full signal FM, not a secondary station.

Now,you are presenting it as the savior to WPAT.

No, I am not. But there are rumors that SBS is going to try to cover Mami with WPAT. They already have a somewhat comparable, Dominican-targeted station in San Juan that gets decent ratings (due to the high number of Dominicans in the SJ metro), so the idea is not radical.

I did not recommend or endorse the concept. I said that it is apparently being considered as a solution to the issues at WPAT given the disillusionment with the DJ Laz / Generation 2 format they thought they could plug into New York.

Hey,at least you now know who Prince Royce is.Last year you didn't.

I think I know a heck of a lot more about Dominican music and taste than you give me credit for. If you are at all familiar with the Dominican Republic, you should be familiar with "El Gobierno de la Mañana" on Z-101 and its network. The program has been #1 since 1986 when I created it.

So much for not knowing who Prince Royce... or Zacharías Ferreira for that matter is. I've followed "el amargue" for decades since it was a form only played in El Cibao and rural areas in the interior of the República.

Monchy Y Alexandra? They havent had a hit in five years.

They have not had a recent hit because they broke up in September of 2008. Hmm... that's about 5 years, isn't it?

I used the duo as an example, since Hoja en Blanco (2000) is widely considered the landmark song that "broke" bachata internationally (even if it is a cover of the Omar Geles vallenato version, and written by the Colombian genius that is Wilfran Castillo).

Btw,haven't you guys learned your lesson when you programmed Reggaeton nonstop 24 hours a day?

The person who came up with that idea is now at CBS. But, given the explosion of reggaetón, the huge ratings for Mix in San Juan, and the limited signal that was 105.9, it was not a bad strategic idea. Unfortunately, the reggaetón boom went into a period of several yeas of hundreds and hundreds of releases of really mediocre or crappy music before we re-entered a period of quality production such as we have now.

Ahora, it will be Bachata 24/7 lol. You guys are so one dimensional.

Mami 92.7 is rhythmic music targeting Dominicans 35+ primarily and Caribbeans secondarily, based on Merengue, Bachata and Salsa. Given the specifics of the PPM panel, it's a great alternative for a marginal signal. It could also be a perfect showcase for some very well known NY talent of Dominican heritage...

 

[TonySantiago]

David,

I'm not going to re-quote but I will state what I found noteworthy from you breaking up 6 of my thoughts....
=====

1) AGREE. Just saying there is actually growth that's happening there.

2) I knew what I listed there were agency accounts, and that's why I noted them. I do believe that a dance/EDM station like this CAN get those advertisers aboard. So as long as agencies see the demos, yeah, absolutely.

3) What I meant by travel agencies were those that are online such as Expedia, Travelocity, Hotels.com, etc. Not the Liberty Travel kind. And the fast food, drinks, etc. Covers on #2 with the agency accounts.

4) You gotta give me this....at least I'm thinking BIG here on this, not mom and pop in that sense.

5) Go back to the post where I said that from 6AM - 7PM, such a station would have more commercial dance/rhythmic around those times, interspersed with some edge to it. I get that. That goes back to taking some aspect of what 'KTU, Z-100 and 92.3 Now are doing in that sense. But whereas 'KTU places themselves towards a female crowd, Z-100 hits suburban, 92.3 Now covers more city, this station leans more towards males as well as females who are turned off by what 'KTU and the CHR stations put out there and want more. Granted I am no GM or GSM, obviously, but this is what I've been studying on, trying to look at as many angles as possible.

6) Like I had said in past posts, I respect your views when it comes to Spanish radio. You know that angle and I will never argue it. If anything I think of you as one of the "go to" guys for that, the same way I refer to Scott Fybush for the technical aspects. But quite honestly, and that's because you are in the industry and see it from the corporate point of view, you may know numbers, you may know billings, but I really don't think you know a dang thing about the dance music crowd in that sense.

'KTU....REALLY?? ???

I've said this many times ad nauseam that for the type of audience 'KTU serves (W 25-54) they do good. That's what 'KTU is, a rhythmic mainstream station. But PLEASE, they don't cover it all. It serves well for their audience and I'm not knocking them on that (hell, I'll give credit to Rob Miller and Bartel for that), but they don't serve everyone that follows rhythmic/dance music. CERTAIN ASPECTS of 'KTU (some of the mainstream portion, which is also covered by Z-100 and 92.3 Now) should go into a dance/EDM station, I'll say that, but you still need that "edge". I'm not saying ultra underground here, like the stuff I play on my online show, but at least steps up to what is being currently offered.
=====

Yeah I'm spitting out my passion here, again, but it's as I've said too, things are much different now than they were as recent as 3 years ago. Dance/EDM has become more accepted now than ever. Is it at the level of the disco craze of the 70's? No. But whereas advertisers didn't want to touch ANYTHING dance years ago, they see it now.

 

[davideduardo]

5) Go back to the post where I said that from 6AM - 7PM, such a station would have more commercial dance/rhythmic around those times, interspersed with some edge to it. I get that.

'KTU....REALLY?? ???

I've said this many times ad nauseam that for the type of audience 'KTU serves (W 25-54) they do good. That's what 'KTU is, a rhythmic mainstream station. But PLEASE, they don't cover it all.

You have a circular argument here.

I said that much of the rhythmic demand is satisfied by the current high rhythmic content on CHRs, KTU, and even the moving of Hip Hop stations into more rhythmic content.

You say that an EDM station would have to be more commercial and less edgy in the daytime. In other words, it would be competing with KTU, Z-100, Hot, Now and others. That's a crowded playing field... which is what I said.

Again, the real issue is how to get 6 AM to 7 PM numbers that would get such a station on conventional (non-club and non-lifestyle) buys.

As to "but I really don't think you know a dang thing about the dance music crowd in that sense" I am reminded of a call I got about consulting a new FM in Karachi. I replied that I did not know the language, the culture and the religion. They answered, "we know all that, but we don't know radio." It is fairly simple to do perceptual research of a lifestyle group even before any music research so that one identifies the commonalities as well as the splinter factors; decisions are made on that data rather than anecdotal personal experience.

 

[Lucha Libre AAA]

@ David Eduardo

I know the Dominican market is larger than the Mexican market in NY DMA, but I'm surprised Univision would give up the Regional Mexican format.

WQBU seemed to be doing well as far as attracting advertisers. They had lots of McDonald's, Walmart, AT&T, big locals like AutoWorld. They were the presenting radio station for all Vicente Fernandez concerts in the area, all of which did huge business at Nassau Coliseum, Prudential, and IZOD.

They even accepted Telemundo 47 and Fox Deportes ads.

More importantly, WQBU was a cross-promotion vehicle for local Univision and Telefutura. Almost every commercial break ran a spot for their programming.