How much is a NYC signal worth?

[davideduardo]

The 1 A Clears had one non-directional and fully protected station on them:

640-670, 700, 720, 750-780, 820-840, 870-890, 1020-1040, 1100, 1120, 1160, 1180, 1200, 1210

Should have added "fully protected in the contiguous 48 states. 640 had Newfoundland, 650 had Honolulu, 660 had Fairbanks, etc., going way back. And then the breakdown of the clears added at least one major, but directional, station on each national clear in places like Boise, Kalispell, Lexington, St. Georges, Reno, Las Vegas, Window Rock, Grand Junction, Roswell, Cheyenne, Guymon and such.

 

[Ai4i]

Are you saying that synch amps count(ed) as real stations?

 

[fybush]

My bet on the sports station would be Detroit.

Probably, but it's not the only bet. Not sure about WISN's format, but the 1130 in Minneapolis is also all sports/sports talk.

Not anymore. There was a format flip in the Twin Cities last year that sent sports to FM and moved an FM talk format to AM (plus a translator). The only big 1130 with sports now is Detroit. Here in Rochester NY, I get mostly WBBR at night, but WDFN often pokes through. I've only heard WISN once or twice, and never heard Minneapolis.

 

[fybush]

Are you saying that synch amps count(ed) as real stations?

At one time, yes. The FCC made Westinghouse shut down WBZA Springfield in order to buy KFWB in Los Angeles without going over the ownership cap in 1962.

 

[N1WVQ]

"Clear Channel" does not mean "nondirectional." But two of the original Clear Channels that could be non-directional intentionally directionalized. Pop quiz time.
[/quote
What are WWL & WBZ, Alex.

 

[DanStrassberg]

"Clear Channel" does not mean "nondirectional." But two of the original Clear Channels that could be non-directional intentionally directionalized. Pop quiz time.

What are WWL & WBZ, Alex.

WWL and WBZ remain directional to this day. There were two other directional US ex-IAs that haven't been directional in probably 50 years, so hardly anyone thinks of them any longer: WEAF (now WFAN) when it was transmitting from Port Washington Long Island and WTAM (which I believe returned to its legacy WTAM calls close to a decade ago). The WTAM installation was unusual; it was a single-tower DA. I said single-tower but not single-element. It was a two-element array, which consisted of the tower itself and a drop-wire from one of the guys. The array was designed by the legendary Carl Smith. The claimed efficiency was extremely high. The pattern was not strongly directional but the strongest radiation was directed southward and the signal across Lake Erie and into southern Ontario was somewhat reduced. Although WTAM still comes into Boston loud and clear on most nights, my memory, FWIW, is that the old directional signal was stronger, although WTAM may already have gone ND by the time I moved to Boston in 1956.

 

[Ai4i]

We seem to be drifting way off topic, but as long as we are, another fomer directional is WLW.
At half a meg, they could only send 50K toward some Canadian station (maybe a first adjacency).

 

[davideduardo]

Are you saying that synch amps count(ed) as real stations?

A synch like KKOB is strictly a null fill. I'm not sure if such things existed prior to the initial deregulation where ownership caps were meaningful.

WBZA in Springfield was a real radio station, with its own license.

WBTA in Shelby was similarly, real.

I wonder if the Lowell - Lawrence synchronous operation counted as a single station or two under the old rules. Both were WLLH, both were on 1400, and they ID'd as simply WLLH, Lowell-Lawrence IIRC. But each was a true standalone Class IV, although they probably could not have existed as independents as they overlapped. I recall reading that they had, for the times, a very sophisticated system to keep from creating chatter and low frequency heterodynes on each other.

 

[davideduardo]

Are you saying that synch amps count(ed) as real stations?

A synch like KKOB is strictly a null fill. I'm not sure if such things existed prior to the initial deregulation where ownership caps were meaningful.

WBZA in Springfield was a real radio station, with its own license.

WBTA in Shelby was similarly, real.

I wonder if the Lowell - Lawrence synchronous operation counted as a single station or two under the old rules. Both were WLLH, both were on 1400, and they ID'd as simply WLLH, Lowell-Lawrence IIRC. But each was a true standalone Class IV, although they probably could not have existed as independents as they overlapped. I recall reading that they had, for the times, a very sophisticated system to keep from creating chatter and low frequency heterodynes on each other.

 

[Ai4i]

Whatever that thing on 1230 in Pompano Bch, FL is, it surely adds a lot to the 1230 in West Palm Bch.
Nay a word of it has ever gotten passed the R-L censors.

 

[w9wi]

We seem to be drifting way off topic, but as long as we are, another fomer directional is WLW.
At half a meg, they could only send 50K toward some Canadian station (maybe a first adjacency).

Yes. CFRB was on 690 at the time; the frequency got swapped to Montreal with NARBA in 1941.

 

[Ai4i]

I used to hear their simulcast over CFRX on 6070.

 

[Kent]

"Clear Channel" does not mean "nondirectional." But two of the original Clear Channels that could be non-directional intentionally directionalized. Pop quiz time.

Ummm...is one of them WWL 870?

 

[Kent]

A synch like KKOB is strictly a null fill. I'm not sure if such things existed prior to the initial deregulation where ownership caps were meaningful.

I was thinking KKOB got rid of that synch quite awhile ago. I believe they first got it in '89 or '90, and it was considered an experimental station. The former KNUZ 1230 in Houston and KFIT 1060 in Lockhart/Austin also had synchs. Houston had grown to the point that 1230 didn't cover the whole city anymore, and I believe KFIT had a synch in San Antonio. To the best of my knowledge, those two are long gone, too.

 

[fybush]

KKOB's Santa Fe synchro is still there, and works quite well, at least when I heard it last year.

 

[DanStrassberg]

I wonder if the Lowell - Lawrence synchronous operation counted as a single station or two under the old rules. Both were WLLH, both were on 1400, and they ID'd as simply WLLH, Lowell-Lawrence IIRC. But each was a true standalone Class IV, although they probably could not have existed as independents as they overlapped. I recall reading that they had, for the times, a very sophisticated system to keep from creating chatter and low frequency heterodynes on each other.

I go back only to 1956 with WLLH. Back then, both the Lowell and Lawrence TXs were rooftop installations. I'm guessing that around 20 years ago, the Lowell Tx was replaced with a conventional series-fed tower that is still within the City of Lowell. The signal from this TX is noticeably better than the signal from the old rooftop tower in Lowell and also better than the signal from the still-in-use Lawrence rooftop tower. Until the current GPS-based synchonization system was installed perhaps a decade ago now, a sub-audible heterodyne was always discernible in places where both signals were reasonably strong. Usually, the beat note was around 1 Hz. Recently, the synchronization system was inoperative for a couple of days and the SAH returned. When the GPS-based system is operative, I can't detect a beat note. Chris Hall, who used to be the WLLH CE, says that the GPS-based system has moved the area where a beat-note is detectable to locations outside of the normally protected daytime contours. I don't really understand that; if the two transmitters were truly on exactly the same frequency (instantaneous as well as average), there should still be standing waves--though you might have to listen in a moving car to detect them. Anyhow, my QTH is outside of the protected contours of both Txs and, as I said, with the GPS-based synchronization operative, I can't detect a beat.

 

[SonoSational18]

"But stations are not sold by population, but by market size. 107.9 is neither a good Baltimore station nor a good DC station. It's a rimshot, but good enough for a niche format like the Spanish language offering that has moved to it."
Belatedly back to the original subject.... a signal is worth what a qualified buyer is willing to pay for it. As mentioned in former posts, there are many variables. The major determinant in a station sale is cashflow..... maxing out at about 10% these days.... so if a station is cash-flowing $10M a year, it would probably sell in the $80-100M range. Of course, if you're just buying the stick and not the accounts, intellectual property and goodwill (as would be the case with WFME) or buying a station with negative cashflow, other factors come into play, including the population covered (generally the metric for non-com sales), market size, and the facility itself. A non-directional 50kw AM is likely to fetch more than a 5kw directional. A class B FM will fetch more than an A. A centrally located transmitter will be worth more than a rim-shot (so if they were for sale WNYC-FM or WBAI would be worth more than WFME) . Another factor is competition. A buyer may be willing to pay a bit more to take out a competitor. Finally is real estate.... are you getting a building and transmitter site, or are those leased. Finally is potential..... if a station has the potential to upgrade the facility it could be worth a few bucks more. On the subject of WOR..... it is a good facility, but not the caliber of WFAN, WCBS, or WABC (arguably the best AM facility in town) because of its directional signal..... I doubt it would be worth $100M unless (and I doubt this is the case) it's cashflowing in the $12-15M range.

 

[SonoSational18]

.... and the subject of clear channels and directionals, both WBZ and WWL are directional by choice. Both are located near large bodies of water and chose to push more signal over land areas. There are a couple of other channels populated by non-directional 50kw stations, but with a lot of other directional stations in other area of the country. Among them: 680 with KNBR running non-D, 810 (WGY), 850 (KOA), and 1070 (KNX). These days you can put a 50kw signal on what were formerly considered regional channels, but there were traditionally channels like 710 where you had several big 50kw signals (but generally directional to some degree) and then some smaller signals in between. Others included 940, 1000, 1010, 1050, 1060, 1080, 1090, 1110, 1130, 1140, 1170, 1190, 1500, 1510m 1520, 1530, 1540, and 1560.

 

[davideduardo]

.... and the subject of clear channels and directionals, both WBZ and WWL are directional by choice. Both are located near large bodies of water and chose to push more signal over land areas. There are a couple of other channels populated by non-directional 50kw stations, but with a lot of other directional stations in other area of the country. Among them: 680 with KNBR running non-D, 810 (WGY), 850 (KOA), and 1070 (KNX). These days you can put a 50kw signal on what were formerly considered regional channels, but there were traditionally channels like 710 where you had several big 50kw signals (but generally directional to some degree) and then some smaller signals in between. Others included 940, 1000, 1010, 1050, 1060, 1080, 1090, 1110, 1130, 1140, 1170, 1190, 1500, 1510m 1520, 1530, 1540, and 1560.

In addtion to the 25 1-A clears I listed, we have these addtional clear channels.

540. 680,690, 710, 730, 740, 800, 810, 850, 860, 900, 940, 990, 1000, 1010, 1950, 1060, 1070, 1080, 1090, 1110, 1130, 1140, 1170, 1190, 1220, 1500-1580.

Some, like 540 are joint Canadian and Mexican clears. One, 1540, is a Bahamian clear. In general, they allow for several dominant stations, such as Seattle and Chicago on 1000, with a number of secondary stations (1000 had Bridgedwater and still has Mexico City plus some "small fry" like KTOK). But all of those listed are clear channels.

Stations that recently got 50 kw on regional channels (550-630, 790, 910-930, 950-980, 1150, 1250-1330, 1350-1390, 1410-1440, 1460-1480) are not clear channel stations, just regionals with higher power.

 

[Rusty Muck]

"Clear Channel" does not mean "nondirectional." But two of the original Clear Channels that could be non-directional intentionally directionalized. Pop quiz time.

What are WWL & WBZ, Alex.

WWL and WBZ remain directional to this day. There were two other directional US ex-IAs that haven't been directional in probably 50 years, so hardly anyone thinks of them any longer: WEAF (now WFAN) when it was transmitting from Port Washington Long Island and WTAM (which I believe returned to its legacy WTAM calls close to a decade ago). The WTAM installation was unusual; it was a single-tower DA. I said single-tower but not single-element. It was a two-element array, which consisted of the tower itself and a drop-wire from one of the guys. The array was designed by the legendary Carl Smith. The claimed efficiency was extremely high. The pattern was not strongly directional but the strongest radiation was directed southward and the signal across Lake Erie and into southern Ontario was somewhat reduced. Although WTAM still comes into Boston loud and clear on most nights, my memory, FWIW, is that the old directional signal was stronger, although WTAM may already have gone ND by the time I moved to Boston in 1956.

What is WTAM again has had a complex history.

They moved from the original Brecksville tower (built in 1930 by the aforementioned Carl Smith) in 1954 to a segmented Franklin tower in Berea (just like the segmented WCBS/WFAN tower), paired with then-sister station WNBK/3. Because of the way that tower was structured, it gave WTAM a similar directional pull as the original Carl Smith array did. NBC then swapped WTAM/WNBK in 1956 to Westinghouse in 1956, with Group W changing the calls to KYW AM/TV; that swap was forcibly voided by the FCC in 1965, with returning owner NBC installing the WKYC AM/TV calls.

Nick Mileti and Jim Embrescia purchased WKYC/1100 from NBC in 1972, installing the WWWE calls (it reverted to WTAM in 1996). WWWE then left the Franklin tower in favor of the original Brecksville tower in 1975... but since then as just a non-directional signal. Coincidentally enough, Carl Smith's engineering firm now owns the land and are HQed in the original WTAM transmitter building. CC merely leases the tower, as do two FM stations and a whole host of ham and CB operators.

The Franklin tower, BTW, came down in 2010 after WKYC-TV, now a Gannett-owned NBC affiliate, converted to digital.