Ibiquity's "Gag Order" on engineers

[SUPERCASTER]

LinoNYC quoted me then said:

Quote
Your way or the highway, right?

-The approach you have taken should anyone dare express positive opinions of this system.

Not at all true. I welcome any post that presents rational positives about the HD radio system. After all, there are so few positives to problematic HD radio, that these rare posts give me a proper chance to reply.

Regarding your lengthily explanation about other problems with the early CBS color system:
I did not say incompatibility of the early CBS color system with black and white TV's was the ONLY problem or consideration. But, as I said, it was one of the main problems.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Boulder Engineer said:

Ibquity IBOC is what we have. It's too late to change that fact.

It's never too late to pull the plug, just as with many previous deficient/defective technologies.
FMeXtra got FCC final approval before HD radio did. It required no new rules, no basic changes or new "masks" to hide behind, as did problematic HD radio.

You should have brought your objections (Are you capable of constructive criticism?) up to the FCC years ago.

Many of us did, but were overshadowed by pressure, influence, lobbyiests, politics, and large amounts of conglomerate and cartel cash.

Now, it's up to us engineers, designers, radio manufacturers and software geeks to refine the technology; to use our collective talents to continue to improve it.

Why?
Just because you say so?
Perhaps the proper action for engineers and the future of radio is just to pull out the HD radio plug and forget this digital disaster was ever proposed.

As in any field of endeavor, whining and complaining get you nowhere.

Then why are you here doing it?

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,78938.msg587652.html#msg587652

 

[davideduardo]

In Reply # 28, David Eduardo wrote:
1360 is not a viable signal, and 1530 is not either based on missing a good part of the market at night and not getting a good enough one in the outer counties daytime.

Thirteen-sixty is far from ideal; but on 1530, you're absolutely wrong, DE! Back in 2004, when 1530 was "real oldies" WSAI, I could hear it every night here in NJ! Just look at the contour maps: http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/info?call=WCKY&service=AM

The skywave on high-end-of-the-dial higher power AMs is ocnsiderable; 1530 is getting close to being a shortwave frequency. What radio stations market is the local, groundwave signal. The skywave is an obstruction to this.

But the daytime signal does not put even a 5 mV/m over much of the market. A big piece of Butler is missed, as is nearly all of Warren and all of Brown and much of Clermont counties in OH. Grant and Pendleton in KY are nearly totally missed by the 5 mv/m signal. So there is 25% of the market (MSA) population that is out of the day signal, and when it goes directional at night, even more is lost.

New Jersey is not in the market metro survey area, and the radio locator maps are purposely marked as "for entertainment purposes only." In metro stations, you generally don't even see listening out to the 5 mV/m contour due to high noise levels, so the real usable coverage is even less than what I detailed. In other words, this is not a viable signal for a 13 county metro area.

 

[davideduardo]

And finally, it is NOT a lie to state that iboc [sic] FM causes interference. As rbrucecarter5 noted in Reply #33, "Many people have been reporting first adjacent jamming in the crowded metro areas of the Eastern seaboard." Yes, I know. I'm one of them! And you're not rude enough to call me a liar, are you, Lino?

In every case I have heard of, the "interference" is outside the protected contour of the station that is allegedly being interferred with.

 

[Tom Wells]

In every case I have heard of, the "interference" is outside the protected contour of the station that is allegedly being interferred with.

Unless you count the interference every HD digital signal adds to its analog host.

Such AM-HD stations actually sound better the farther away you go from them.
Maybe the radio locator amusement maps will be changed to show a fringe ring of a different color for AM-HDs,
indicating the zone where the digital sidebands are reduced, but the analog is still robust.
Something like a thin donut....for the Chicago 50 kw AM HDs, this ring runs about 150 to 250 miles out.

How do you discount this very real signal degradation for local, in market listeners?

 

[Chuck]

And finally, it is NOT a lie to state that iboc [sic] FM causes interference. As rbrucecarter5 noted in Reply #33, "Many people have been reporting first adjacent jamming in the crowded metro areas of the Eastern seaboard." Yes, I know. I'm one of them! And you're not rude enough to call me a liar, are you, Lino?

In every case I have heard of, the "interference" is outside the protected contour of the station that is allegedly being interferred with.

Yep. All I've ever been able to confirm is the interference problems are outside of the station's Protected Contour. But it is still interference when one day you can listen to a station clearly, and the next day, your neighbor switches on a box that renders that same signal un-listenable. In the case of HD radio, it is legal, FCC sanctioned interference. If the same degree of interference were generated by analog means, there would be a lot of screaming going on. We've all gone down this road for some time now and there is no sense in regurgitating all the gory details.

That doesn't make Lino's statement “It is simply a lie to state that iboc FM causes interference," any more accurate. In fact, what he said is not true at all. Perhaps the interference on FM is generally tolerable to most listeners, but it still exists. Some of the most impacted FM stations are in the Reserved Band on the East Coast. If you ask them, I think they will tell you that the interference issue is real, and it is taking money out of their pockets.

 

[davideduardo]

Yep. All I've ever been able to confirm is the interference problems are outside of the station's Protected Contour.

There is no guarantee that any station's coverage outside the protected contour will be permanent. As the number of FMs grew, particularly after Docket 80-90 and the relaxation of rules that allowed easy convesion from A's to B's or C's and move ins, many stations lost fringe coverage... way before HD was conceived.

But it is still interference when one day you can listen to a station clearly, and the next day, your neighbor switches on a box that renders that same signal un-listenable.

To me, there is no difference between allowing new stations that block more distant ones and HD... the coverage out of the protected contours was never intended to be permanent as the band built out or new technologies developed.

That doesn't make Lino's statement “It is simply a lie to state that iboc FM causes interference," any more accurate.

If operations are legal, then there is no interference, as the fringe coverage was never guaranteed by the FCC rules. The fact that it is very rare to have any measurable listenership even at the extremes of the protected contour further indicates that if a better uses of the spectrum occurs, the loss is minimal and the potential gain is possibley large.

In fact, what he said is not true at all. Perhaps the interference on FM is generally tolerable to most listeners, but it still exists. Some of the most impacted FM stations are in the Reserved Band on the East Coast. If you ask them, I think they will tell you that the interference issue is real, and it is taking money out of their pockets.

Stations in rated markets, and nearly every area of the east are part of some rated market, don't derive revenue outside the rated market in all but a few cases, and those are where a station straddles multiple markets.

 

[Chuck]

If operations are legal, then there is no interference, as the fringe coverage was never guaranteed by the FCC rules. The fact that it is very rare to have any measurable listenership even at the extremes of the protected contour further indicates that if a better uses of the spectrum occurs, the loss is minimal and the potential gain is possibley large.


Stations in rated markets, and nearly every area of the east are part of some rated market, don't derive revenue outside the rated market in all but a few cases, and those are where a station straddles multiple markets.

No, there is interference. It is legal interference. The term "legal" doesn't make it go away. There is still electrical interference, legal or not. If you can no longer pick up something you once could, there is a problem. If the reason you can no longer receive a station is IBOC, then that technology is causing a problem. The same could be claimed with Docket 80-90 stations. Some NCE stations have experienced this new IBOC interference in a manner that has taken money out of their pockets.

If a station used to get contributions from listeners in a town that can no longer can receive them, and you were the stations manager, you'd have to call it a problem. I know you work under a completely different business model, but there are a lot of stations that are not influenced by ratings or agency buys. Many work off of donations from listeners, and every time they lose a listener, it is money out of their pockets. It may amaze you, but some NCE stations get contributions from their fringe areas. It is that simple.

 

[LinoNYC]

And finally, it is NOT a lie to state that iboc [sic] FM causes interference. As rbrucecarter5 noted in Reply #33, "Many people have been reporting first adjacent jamming in the crowded metro areas of the Eastern seaboard." Yes, I know. I'm one of them! And you're not rude enough to call me a liar, are you, Lino?

Don't count on that. I have read alot of somewhat entertaining b.s. on message boards over the last four years concerning this system.

If the complaintant can't/won't cite actual examples, all we are left with is, b.s.

Here in NYC many of the fm's have been using iboc for well over a year, so far, it has not impacted my ability to receive fringe stations from Long Island, Connecticut, Upstate, and New Jersey. Everything I could receive five years ago, I still do with the same equipment.

I have read actual instances of such problems on AM iboc but none so-far for FM.

The concern I have had for four years regarding this system is that since iboc receivers are of the "smart" design they can be made individually addressable opening the way to use public airways for subscription services.

Those frequencies are provided "free" to broadcasters and all OTA on them should remain free as well.


Lino

 

[LinoNYC]

Boulder Engineer is the perfect example of a professional who must do as management wishes.

It doesn't sound as though he is thoroughly enjoying his involvement in iBOC implementation.

He is not in the position to critique management's choice of technology.
As he says " My job as an engineer is to solve problems." How true.
When (radio) engineering decisions are made by computer people and business people, there will be problems.

I bet very few engineers HAVE the sort of job security to tell owners and managers if they think iBOC is bad.

How you feel about this very much depends on which side your bread is buttered.
If I had gone into broadcast engineering, I'm sure I would be silent or non-committal, to protect my career.
That's an implicit gag order, if only in recognizing how "funny" radio employment can be.

Now the other quote, " We can work to make the technology work, or not."

This sentence abounds with possibilities. Sounds to me like he leaves a great big chance that it can't be made to work.
Or that maybe we have a choice to not "work at" making it work.

But notice that he sounds grimly resigned to the task, not enthusiastic.

This is enough evidence for me that the "gag order" is implied in one's own career viability, and the wise employed engineers
are more than circumspect in sharing opinions when management has made an unwise decision.
It's always better to let the technology fail of its own weaknesses, than to look like you are trying to not make something work.
Openly stating opposition would be akin to admitting that one would not work as hard as possible toward the desired outcome.
Next thing, you have no job.

This is all common sense.

These are the sort of comments often made by those who haven't had actual responsibility for implementing new technology.

In most instances it is best to CYA by stating your opinions regarding the shortcomings of new tech.

In the 1980s the theater saw a huge influx of new and often unreliable tech. As I gained experience with new systems I allways made a point of telling designers, directors etc of any problems I'd had, what to expect and how to compensate for failures.

That way when things did go wrong or simply not perform as expected it did not come as a major surprise and they could not say I hadn't appraised them of the situation.

I don't know about radio, but most adults are willing to listen to expert advice they are paying for.

Lino

 

[hipporadio]

I bet very few engineers HAVE the sort of job security to tell owners and managers if they think iBOC is bad.

I don't know about radio, but most adults are willing to listen to expert advice they are paying for.

You’re about half-the-way to being completely correct, Lino... The "adults" in corporate radio DO listen to the advice they nearly-always pay for. The operative question remains: “HOW do the chimps choose WHO [the "experts"] to toss their bananas too – and WHAT’S the real pedigree of the recipient minions?

Now the fifty-percent you haven’t quite center-tuned yet... Let’s ad up all the guidance and feedback from the "regular folks" [the experts in-wait who have yet to earn a zoo-pass] that they casually-dismiss... That total may very-well overwhelm the IBOC interference we’re debating here.

 

[Tom Wells]

These are the sort of comments often made by those who haven't had actual responsibility for implementing new technology.

In most instances it is best to CYA by stating your opinions regarding the shortcomings of new tech.

In the 1980s the theater saw a huge influx of new and often unreliable tech. As I gained experience with new systems I allways made a point of telling designers, directors etc of any problems I'd had, what to expect and how to compensate for failures.

That way when things did go wrong or simply not perform as expected it did not come as a major surprise and they could not say I hadn't appraised them of the situation.

I don't know about radio, but most adults are willing to listen to expert advice they are paying for.

Lino

I have been continuously implementing new tech and troubleshooting all ages of technology since the early 1980's.

I troubleshoot on location, and by telephone.

I do have the freedom where I work to give an engineering opinion without fear of repercussion.

This does not change the direction of technology, because it is never driven by the engineers, but by the marketers and cost-cutters.

I also have to explain to customers when the new failure mode is inescapable, and while the old failure modes often permitted work-arounds,
we'll all just have to love the new failure modes, because we have departed from sound engineering design in many areas.
We design in more reasons for a product to fail, rather than design for greatest reliability.

I hope I am long dead before some idiot decides we need digital steering in vehicles.

As noted, the world of radio employment is "funny". In a game of musical chairs, one must pay attention and do what everyone else does,
really fast, because every time the music stops, there's one less chair.

 

[calstymes]

Ok. I'm going to go out on a limb because the pro-AM IBOC arguments I'm still seeing here (after all this time) are just plain absurd.

There is a reason that a number of posters on this message board who were staunch AM IBOC advocates are no longer posting. The ones who actually work in engineering areas know that when AM IBOC goes 24 hours next week it is going to make an absolute mess out of the AM broadcast band and NOBODY is looking forward to it. They aren't talking about it either. There is nothing left to say, either pro or con. We will have what we have.

The only pro-AM IBOC types who are left posting are the ones who either clearly are FM-only people, or, haven't a real clue about how the AM broadcast band actually works. Well I guess they don't call AM "ancient modulation" for nothing. But I will conjecture that this is why we haven't heard from Tom Ray in quite some time and also why the two largest radio conglomerates don't seem to be in any great hurry to implement AM IBOC on a 24-hour basis. If anyone thinks that every station that is currently broadcasting AM IBOC during the daytime is going to start broadcasting it 24-hours on the first day it becomes legal to do so then think again. If everybody keeps it on at night all at once it will make the perceived problem worse. This is BAD for business and it's now time for engineers to start thinking about damage control.

Maybe everyone is finally waking up from this bad dream. Lots of engineering data was presented to the FCC over the past several years about the engineering shortcomings of this hybrid AM system yet it still got approved. This is an FCC-sanctioned noise generator, plain and simple. Maybe it is really the FCC that would like to "obsolete" the AM band with this unpleasant sound. Wouldn't that be a twist?

No doubt, the AM IBOC supporters are now realizing the truth of this and this is why they are keeping their mouths shut. If I were an AM IBOC supporter, I'd be keeping my mouth shut too!

 

[Savage]

Latest issue of RW, page 1 above the fold, 9/12/07:

"As more people turn (HD-AM) on at night, it will be interesting to see who gets interference, who gets wiped out and who's not," said THE GROUP ENGINEERING EXECUTIVE, ASKING NOT TO BE IDENTIFIED.

Another example of an apparent industry leader who will only publicize criticize Ibiquity's pet rock when there's a bag firmly in place over his head.

So, let's check the box scores: 13,000-plus AM and FM stations in the USA. I'm guesstimating about 250,000 radio-industry workers. And - if this thread is any guide - by my actual count, there are NINE persons who don't believe there's an explicit or defacto Ibiquity-imposed ban on public criticism of IBOC.

"....asking not to be identified" ??? I challenge anyone here to point out A SINGLE EXAMPLE in the past 50 years of radio engineering boons or goofs, where there was a like instance of repeated reluctance of radio people to publicly criticize an "engineering innovation?"

Just ONE will do, thanks.

 

[Boulder Engineer]

Latest issue of RW, page 1 above the fold, 9/12/07:

"As more people turn (HD-AM) on at night, it will be interesting to see who gets interference, who gets wiped out and who's not," said THE GROUP ENGINEERING EXECUTIVE, ASKING NOT TO BE IDENTIFIED.

Another example of an apparent industry leader who will only publicize criticize Ibiquity's pet rock when there's a bag firmly in place over his head.

So, let's check the box scores: 13,000-plus AM and FM stations in the USA. I'm guesstimating about 250,000 radio-industry workers. And - if this thread is any guide - by my actual count, there are NINE persons who don't believe there's an explicit or defacto Ibiquity-imposed ban on public criticism of IBOC.

"....asking not to be identified" ??? I challenge anyone here to point out A SINGLE EXAMPLE in the past 50 years of radio engineering boons or goofs, where there was a like instance of repeated reluctance of radio people to publicly criticize an "engineering innovation?"

Just ONE will do, thanks.

Keep on looking; those Weapons of Mass Destruction are out there *somewhere*!.
It's only logical.

Frank in Nevada

 

[LinoNYC]

Ok. I'm going to go out on a limb because the pro-AM IBOC arguments I'm still seeing here (after all this time) are just plain absurd.

There is a reason that a number of posters on this message board who were staunch AM IBOC advocates are no longer posting.

The only pro-AM IBOC types who are left posting are the ones who either clearly are FM-only people, or, haven't a real clue about how the AM broadcast band actually works. Well I guess they don't call AM "ancient modulation" for nothing. But I will conjecture that this is why we haven't heard from Tom Ray in quite some time and also why the two largest radio conglomerates don't seem to be in any great hurry to implement AM IBOC on a 24-hour basis.

No doubt, the AM IBOC supporters are now realizing the truth of this and this is why they are keeping their mouths shut. If I were an AM IBOC supporter, I'd be keeping my mouth shut too!

The real reason is more likely the same one that keeps almost all market known DJs and other personalities off message boards.

There is nothing but embarrassment to be gained by doing so.

Most single topic boards develope a self appointed clique that selectively attacks any opposing views.

You see it clearly here and on such topics as Oldies, a person may post a largely critical set of remarks, but the "overseers" will pounce on any hint of positive comment.

What professional, in any industry will bother to subject himself to garbage being thrown from the peanut gallery?

Open your eyes and read through the threads concerning iboc, I doubt you'll wonder why.

Lino

 

[Tom Wells]

Lino, there has been as much noise made about the iBOC system as it makes itself on AM.

Fair enough.

Now, let us consider that if you igonre the daily noise of derisive pundits (with a real message to preach),
there have been a few with real issues who (myself included) tried to engage REAL discussion.

Tom Ray was most gracious, but I while I think he knows it is probably useful for 50kw in a steel cage city,
it's not the best fit for the rest of america. I'm not putting words in his mouth, I'm respecting his stated words in this
forum.

Certainly media types of all levels of reknown visit this site. Elsewise howcum so many monnikers?
I am me here, and can be looked up in any directory.

The peanut gallery is the part of the audience you can hear, because they are there giving you feedback.
You can can play to the gallery and the listeners will hear a good show.
They are part of why sometimes people favored an album cut from a live show....
The band was hotter, it was all in real time, maybe a little sloppy.
You could hear the crowd, and the band. The peanut gallery always had a few who
made others uncomfortable. Do not confuse their ire in this matter with hatred.
How else can those opposed make their point as emphatically as they might?

 

[Boulder Engineer]

What professional, in any industry will bother to subject himself to garbage being thrown from the peanut gallery?

Open your eyes and read through the threads concerning iboc, I doubt you'll wonder why.

Lino

True, but it's like coming across a smoking train wreck.
You know you shouldn't hang around and look too closely, but you can't help yourself.

LOL

 

[Savage]

Guys, we've chewed up this IBOC-AM issue pretty thoroughly. Now, if you agree that nighttime HD is as bad an idea as it obviously is, it's time to stop blogging and start firing the artillery. Don't just sit and talk about IBOC. Now is the time to put this thing in the ground where it belongs.

Whenever you encounter an instance of IBOC interference, complain LOUDLY to the Commission. Get your friends and neighbors to do the same. Your WRITTEN complaint should include specifics such as callsign of the station you're trying to listen to, callsign(s) of the interfering IBOC station(s), time and date heard. And: since the Commission is "unduly influenced by the pro-HD lobby" - BE SURE TO COPY YOUR LOCAL CONGRESSMAN on your correspondence. Complain to:

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
Technical and Public Safety Division
445 12th St. NW
Washington, DC 20554

The idea here is: a tidal wave of FCC complaints about IBOC. HD-AM is on life-support already; with a whopping 4 percent of operating AMs using the system (eroding slightly too,) receiver penetration and consumer awareness hovering just above "zero," a highly guarded industry prognosis and abysmal digital performance in the field, it's as good as dead. All it needs is the right regulatory push to administer the coup de grace. So DO IT! Walk right over to the wall and PULL THE PLUG ON ITS VENTILATOR!!

We need you guys who oppose this asinine system to get into the fight!

 

[LinoNYC]

All it needs is the right regulatory push to administer the coup de grace. So DO IT! Walk right over to the wall and PULL THE PLUG ON ITS VENTILATOR!!

Right. All those stations that have spent 75k for the exciter and who knows how much on antenna work and possibly a new TX are going to just say "nevermind".

Face fact, the system has been given approval and unless thingsreally hit the fan in the coming months with real and provable cases if interference within protected contours, it will be in the hands of the marketplace.

Lino