Ibiquity's "Gag Order" on engineers

[SUPERCASTER]

Eduardo said:

It's just been a few months since the FCC approved HD, and already we have several companies ready to ship low power chips with significant enhancements in another 3 months or so, led by the industry leader, Samsung. That is very fast development as I see it.

HD Radio has been on the air and radios available for more then 4 years, not just a few months as you claim.
Just a few months ago HD boosters and cheerleaders claimed the Boston Acoustics Receptor was going to change the world and be the salvation of radio. Now they claim it's going to be "significant enhancements" in magical new chips from "industry leader" Samsung.
You still are clueless that HD Radio is a obsolete, problematic, failed technology with severe systemic problems and limitations that a few tweaks to the new chips won't fix.
The public has opted out of HD's "new radio of the month" club.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

My first CD player cost $1400 and did not have double or triple sampling; there were only a few hundred titles available, and they ran around $30 in early-80's dollars. The first color TVs were about $1000 and had horrible reception and went out of tune often.

.

Consumers WANTED both innovations.

 

[calstymes]

LinoNYC intoned:

What is nonsensical is to pretend that radio, AM in particular is not in dire need of technological help.

Oh I dunno. The stations (both AM and FM) to which I listen were all quite alright before iBiquity offered its "technological help" to them in the form of IBOC.

But he's right: Somebody decided that radio was in dire need of technological help and by golly, we're going to have that help regardless whether or not the listeners actually want or need it.

The IPO can't too far off now. Stay tuned!

 

[davideduardo]

HD Radio has been on the air and radios available for more then 4 years, not just a few months as you claim.
Just a few months ago HD boosters and cheerleaders claimed the Boston Acoustics Receptor was going to change the world and be the salvation of radio. Now they claim it's going to be "significant enhancements" in magical new chips from "industry leader" Samsung.
You still are clueless that HD Radio is a obsolete, problematic, failed technology with severe systemic problems and limitations that a few tweaks to the new chips won't fix.

HD did not have FCC approval till just a matter of months ago. No large manufacturer would commit to chip design and production until they were assured there might be an ROI. This is why we got second and third tier manufacturers using early chipsets.

Nobody I know was thrilled with the Receptor. It is not a good receiver for HD, and is first generation. The current third gen receivers are much beter, but not easy to find. Most activity will be following the Q1 2008 release of the new chipsets that allow protables and smaller devices for the mass market.

Samsung is definitely the industry leader now... just look at its consumer electronics sales compared to Sony or Panasonic, for example.

 

[wgliradio]

David: To put numbers on that, the first version HD chipset used something like 4 watts of power, my understanding is that the new decoder chips arriving late this year use less than 1/10 of that, perform better and cost a lot less, less than even the old Motorola C-Quam chips. That'll make HD practical in inexpensive headphones, Walkman-style receivers, and other mainstream products. IMO, there really won't be any reason not to include HD capability in new radios, even inexpensive ones. The AM side of HD is pushing the Nyquist limit on audio bandwidth and the new chips are supposed to remove the remaining artifacts. I see some really compelling and fun things happening on the FM side, some are my own guesses, others have been hinted at.

Frank in Nevada (Soon to be Seattle)

Won't matter. Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings... and even then, reception will probably be spotty due to front end issues etc. On AM, forget it... even on a well grounded car stereo, AM HD can be hit or miss in some parts of the inner city. Imagine what it will be like when the AM antenna is this:

http://www.geocities.com/shreddermanrulz/radio_3_board.jpg

 

[clouseau]

Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings...

Here's an example of what I wrote about in another thread. Broad sweeping generalizations and inuendo with NO facts. Or specific allegations. Heck, I THINK Savage is wrong, but I understand his points. They are well thought out and specific (to a degree). A great deal of what is posted here falls into that "Unsustantiated Bias" category.

What do you consider to be "the most local HD offerings" you refer to? What signal level? Give us the number in DB or mv/m of where HD is not going to work. Or better still, an address or zip code and an existing station. You made a broad sweeping condemnation. Give us ONE concrete example, please.

Again, you said...

Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings

Give us a specific of your contention and we'll take a look at it.

If you please...

Clouseau

 

[Boulder Engineer]

Won't matter. Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings... and even then, reception will probably be spotty due to front end issues etc. On AM, forget it... even on a well grounded car stereo, AM HD can be hit or miss in some parts of the inner city. Imagine what it will be like when the AM antenna is this:

http://www.geocities.com/shreddermanrulz/radio_3_board.jpg

You really need to get a current HD radio and try it out before making this sort of conjecture.

HD receivers perform w-a-a-y better on analog signals than anything else out there right now. Bar none.
They've got superior selectivity and terrific front ends as far as sensitivity and overload characteristics go.

For years, I have been sorely disappointed with the current generation of receivers, both factory installed and the Japanese aftermarket receivers have been horrible AM performers.

The Kenwood HD receiver in my car performs on par with the best of the best old time tuned front end Delco receivers from 30-40 years ago. Its analog performance is incredible. I was recently in California and you absolutely can't hear any digital grunge on any IBOC AM station's 2nd adjacent channel. None. Nada. You can hear the weak, out of town stations on 2nd adjacent from any IBOC station perfectly on the Kenwood. I was recently working on a 10 KW analog station, parked right under their tower, and the receiver didn't overload. I could tune in to KFI, KNX or KABC and reception was perfect, no cross-talk- Right next to the 10 KW station's tower.

In fact, I'm now able to hear KFI in LA on the way up to Mt. Potosi, outside of Vegas, any time of the day.

An acquaintance with a JVC HD radio reports the same things- He couldn't believe how well it works on AM.

IBOC reception on both AM and FM is very comparable to a station's city grade contour. However, beyond that, AM analog reception greatly exceeds the coverage of the station's HD coverage, especially on the high power blowtorches. On the other hand, I am willing to listen to a less than solid analog radio signal where the general public might not. Don't forget that HD receivers blend over to analog when the HD signal drops out. Noticeable, yes, but you don't lose reception, either. It's all rather seamless.

That's where the current improvements in the system are occurring, both on the transmission and reception side.

I'm not sure, but I believe that a receiver must meet some sort of minimum performance standard before qualifying under the HD license. So, yes, there will always be POS receivers, but the HD-capable ones are going to be greatly superior performers in analog mode.

You DXers and even HD-haters should check the HD receivers out. Just lock them in analog mode- LOL.

Frank in Nevada

 

[Boulder Engineer]

Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings...

Here's an example of what I wrote about in another thread. Broad sweeping generalizations and inuendo with NO facts. Or specific allegations. Heck, I THINK Savage is wrong, but I understand his points. They are well thought out and specific (to a degree). A great deal of what is posted here falls into that "Unsustantiated Bias" category.

What do you consider to be "the most local HD offerings" you refer to? What signal level? Give us the number in DB or mv/m of where HD is not going to work. Or better still, an address or zip code and an existing station. You made a broad sweeping condemnation. Give us ONE concrete example, please.

Again, you said...

Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings

Give us a specific of your contention and we'll take a look at it.

If you please...

Clouseau

If you are willing to read the opinion of someone with a few years of HD experience, read on.

On both AM and FM, IBOC digital coverage seems to be roughly similar to a station's analog coverage but maybe 10 db down.
In other words, a 50 KW AM or FM has pure HD coverage as if it was a 5 KW station. A 10 KW station covers as if it were a 1 KW station in HD mode.

This is with the current 2006-2007 technology and software.

Given that on FM, the HD signal component is actually 20 db down from the analog, that's roughly a 10 db signal improvement in digital mode.

If a 50 KW AM or FM station were to broadcast in pure digital mode, its coverage would be incredible. Like being one of the half-million-watt blasters from years ago.

That's been my experience.

Frank in Nevada

 

[SUPERCASTER]

HD Radio has been on the air and radios available for more then 4 years, not just a few months as you claim.
Just a few months ago HD boosters and cheerleaders claimed the Boston Acoustics Receptor was going to change the world and be the salvation of radio. Now they claim it's going to be "significant enhancements" in magical new chips from "industry leader" Samsung.
You still are clueless that HD Radio is a obsolete, problematic, failed technology with severe systemic problems and limitations that a few tweaks to the new chips won't fix.

HD did not have FCC approval till just a matter of months ago.

Answer- HD Radio's have been available to the public, HD stations on the air, and had interim FCC approval for more than 4 years. Many HD supporters continuously brag about how HD is and has been on well over a thousand stations. Are all those HD supporters wrong except you?

No large manufacturer would commit to chip design and production until they were assured there might be an ROI. This is why we got second and third tier manufacturers using early chipsets.

Answer- Texas Instruments manufactured many of the chips used in HD radios since 2004. I believe TI qualifies as a "large manufacturer".

Nobody I know was thrilled with the Receptor. It is not a good receiver for HD, and is first generation. The current third gen receivers are much beter, but not easy to find. Most activity will be following the Q1 2008 release of the new chipsets that allow protables and smaller devices for the mass market.

Answer- HD supporters were thrilled with the BA Receptor. Many rushed out to buy the Receptor, rated it as excellent, hailed it as the savior of radio, and wrote 5 star reviews here and anywhere else they could share their enthusiasm. The same with the Radio Shack Accurian, which has a similar design, and has now fallen out of favor as the "favorite radio flavor of the month".

Samsung is definitely the industry leader now... just look at its consumer electronics sales compared to Sony or Panasonic, for example.

Answer- I did not say Samsung was not an industry leader, but even they will have a very tough time convincing people to wear tin foil hats topped with rabbit ears and AM loop antenna necessary for reliable HD radio reception, connected to their new pocket sized, battery powered HD radios and cell phones for which the new chipsets were designed.

 

[LinoNYC]

Answer- I did not say Samsung was not an industry leader, but even they will have a very tough time convincing people to wear tin foil hats topped with rabbit ears and AM loop antenna necessary for reliable HD radio reception, connected to their new pocket sized, battery powered HD radios and cell phones for which the new chipsets were designed.

Is that an adult response?

What he and others with actual knowledge of this sytem have said is that the newer chips will have much lower power consumption and much better performance.

I know this may be frustrating to admit but all technology starts out costly and buggy. I guess the next decade is going to difficult for some people.

Lino

 

[hipporadio]

...Whereupon I'll return to the US to stalk the blogosphere, arrogantly and perpetually pontificating on Arbitron PPMs and PPDVs, browbeating legitimate broadcasters and generally behaving like an infantile, stunningly boring, ego-crazed gasbag. And all along the way, I'll strut around behind my faux-Hispanic identity with a degree of impunity, knowing that people who don't know better or who haven't taken time to look will give me an unwarranted pass on my obnoxious comments, incorrectly assuming that I am "a minority." Can't wait to get started, amigos!

HOT-DANG, Mr. Savage... You’ve just tossed the Power Ball! You have obviously-benefited from many years of very-creative commercial composition. My own [and somewhat less-floral] version of this post has been lurking in the My Documents folder for months—I just didn’t have the hot-tamale or a big-enough pair of tomatillos to click on “post” Intrigued, I engaged in a bit [just a bit] of casual op-research on Mr. “HD”-Radio/Arbitron PPM/Agency-Order-Taker myself... Let’s just say that Mr. Savage [here] has hit the jackpot... “Hell knows nothing like the wrath of a woman-scorned”... And a certain IBOC Kool-Aide dispenser is now discovering the wrath of a hard-working and committed ex-urban AM station owner under un-called-for [and below-the-belt] “professional” [?] attack.

Remember back in grade-school P.E. when we “chose sides” for the kick-ball activity... We first clamored for the best – and hoped we wouldn’t be stuck with the poorest potential-performer in the final round. E.G.: The iNiquity Apology Club here on this board has manually self-amused themselves by turning the likes of PocketRadio into some poster-boy representing all that is undesirable with the side that finds IBOC to be undesirable in this [so-called] “debate”. Sidebar: As a nearly-undefeated undergrad debater, I found root-level “utility” in his link-driven hit-and-run contribution [he stated his true position in life and got right-down to business of despising IBOC]... At least the critics of “HD” radio weren’t stuck with the last-remaining amigo before the kick-ball game here commenced!

 

[Play Freebird]

If you are willing to read the opinion of someone with a few years of HD experience, read on.

On both AM and FM, IBOC digital coverage seems to be roughly similar to a station's analog coverage but maybe 10 db down.
In other words, a 50 KW AM or FM has pure HD coverage as if it was a 5 KW station. A 10 KW station covers as if it were a 1 KW station in HD mode.

This is with the current 2006-2007 technology and software.

Frank in Nevada

I also have a few years of HD experience (both on the transmitter and receiver end) and agree with your evaluation for a place like Nevada. You enjoy wide open spaces, a Class C FM power limit, an uncongested FM band, above average ground conductivity, and relatively low lightning flash density.

I'm in Pennsylvania and have observed widely varying results, depending on terrain, adjacent-channel interference, thunderstorms and a bunch of other variables. At just 20 miles from the transmitter, the HD 2 channels of some Class B FM stations are unlistenable (unless you're willing to tolerate muting every five to ten seconds.) And power line noise from our aging utility infrastructures causes major problems with AM reception.

I'm not sure how much improvement future advances in "technology and software" will make when the coverage problem is caused by external factors such as these. For example, if I tune to the first adjacent channel of an IBOC station and clearly hear the analog audio of another station, rather than the digital "hiss", how can the receiver recover any usable data? If the opposite first-adjacent is clear, of course that helps, but reception will still be impaired.

I only see a chance for real improvement if we convert from hybrid to all-digital, but at the rate things are moving, that will take over 20 years. Consider that the average age of registered vehicles is 11 years, and less than 1 percent of new cars being sold today are equipped with HD receivers, and it's clear that we won't be able to turn off analog for a long time.

 

[Savage]

And thank YEW, Mr. Hippo, sir! It was....well, cathartic.

The engineer lurking inside says: when the dork-o-meter gets pegged, make immediate adjustments.

WAIT A MINUTE! We interrupt this post for BREAKING NEWS. What's this that just arrived in the U. S. Mail??
Why....it's the latest Crutchfield catalog! You guys know: the leading mailorder electronics retailer! 36 pages packed with the latest/greatest in consumer electronics and entertainment devices, from plasma TVs to digicams to home theater to iPods to mp3 devices to car audio and video! Well, let's see how many HD-AM radios, home or car, are featured!

Hmmm.

Well, it appears the answer is......uh, NONE. Nada, zip.

Wait - correction - out of four pages of various models of car audio offering everything from AM/FM/CD to XM/Sirius, in dash, remote systems, etc., there is ONE forlorn in-dash "HD tuner," JVC's HD-HDR1. If this thing will actually tune HD-AM, you wouldn't know it from the catalog copy, which only refers to "hidden additional HD stations," an obvious reference to HD-FM. I didn't bother to research the JVC site to check if the HDR1 will do AM so I'll concede, for the sake of convenience, that this one lonely device is HD-AM capable.

Either way, it's a sorry showing for such a frantically-promoted system.

If Crutchfield is any guide, looks like consumers will have to check out The Great Nighttime IBOC-AM Light-Up Event on their existing analog radios - a somewhat daunting prospect for IBOC fans.

 

[wgliradio]

Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings...

Here's an example of what I wrote about in another thread. Broad sweeping generalizations and inuendo with NO facts. Or specific allegations. Heck, I THINK Savage is wrong, but I understand his points. They are well thought out and specific (to a degree). A great deal of what is posted here falls into that "Unsustantiated Bias" category.

What do you consider to be "the most local HD offerings" you refer to? What signal level? Give us the number in DB or mv/m of where HD is not going to work. Or better still, an address or zip code and an existing station. You made a broad sweeping condemnation. Give us ONE concrete example, please.

Again, you said...

Even the most inexpensive of chips and radios will only be able to receive even the most local HD offerings

Give us a specific of your contention and we'll take a look at it.

If you please...

Clouseau

It's simple. I maintain the HD at a 50kw clear channel AM in market #1. Qualified?

The AM HD signal does not do well inside homes on radios on the market now using AM antennas that I feel are much better than average, including the Terk and the CCrane Twin Coil.

I am 40 miles east of the station and have never been able to lock onto an HD signal indoors on either my Radiosophy or Accurian (or the Boston Acoustics, which couldn't lock an AM HD signal if strapped to the radiator).

On a well grounded JVC car stereo, AM reception is spotty as close as 20 miles to the transmitter with power lines and noise.

As far as FM goes, reception of most New York FM signals goes out approx 65-70 miles outside of New York City over Long Island. The HD signal covers maybe 25-30 miles of that on a car radio. On the Accurian, using a T antenna, reception is hit and miss, especially over the summer months when skip becomes an issue. There are days when the HD2's aren't stable enough to even listen to.

Now, what do you THINK will happen to AM and FM reception when the antenna designs are reduced to the size or smaller of what is in the picture I displayed and the radios are in the size of a pack of cigarettes or smaller? Add that to the fact that these radios will probably be included with lets say an MP3 player, or some other digital device that may cause reception issues. I don't see people walking around with AM loops on their portable media players.

 

[wgliradio]

You really need to get a current HD radio and try it out before making this sort of conjecture.

HD receivers perform w-a-a-y better on analog signals than anything else out there right now. Bar none.
They've got superior selectivity and terrific front ends as far as sensitivity and overload characteristics go.

They do. I own a Radiosophy & Accurian, have played with the HDT-1X and we have the JVC in our engineering vehicle at the job.

They are all great analog performers. But they don't always lock the HD signal. See my other post on the issue. The JVC does not beat my Visteon stock stereo in my Mercury, which is more sensitive on AM and FM and deals with the RF environment nightmare in the Jersey swamp much better than the JVC. The Visteon is leaps above the Kenwood, which is in a colleagues car. The Kenwood is so bad that the AM front end just lays down and begs for mercy in the city, only the strongest of strong stations are listenable (from an ergonomic side, the design is also a nightmare, it looks like a Las Vegas nightmare).

IBOC reception on both AM and FM is very comparable to a station's city grade contour.

AH! On radios with with what?

- External T or outdoor FM antennas
- Loop AM antennas (when was the last time a NON GEEK attached their AM loop)

What happens when this translates down when the AM antenna is crammed into a corner of a plastic box and the FM antenna is the headphone wire and said person is walking thru Times Square, NYC?

I'm not sure, but I believe that a receiver must meet some sort of minimum performance standard before qualifying under the HD license.

This would be a good start. I am not sure if it is true either.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

http://www.geocities.com/shreddermanrulz/radio_3_board.jpg

Shredderman must have fixed his web site --- now if he will just add more content!!! I like that guy!

 

[clouseau]

It's simple. I maintain the HD at a 50kw clear channel AM in market #1. Qualified?

I'm not questioning the qualifications (Especially yours), just the facts. A lot of this stuff does NOT pass the rational test.

As far as FM goes, reception of most New York FM signals goes out approx 65-70 miles outside of New York City over Long Island.

This is my point exactly. If we use the high number of 70 miles we get EXACTLY what I have been saying. Assuming WHTZ 6 KW 415 Meters from Empire as an example, the strength of this station at 70 miles (Which is a LOOOOONG way away) is 34.816.DB. To put that in perspective, you could build a 500 watt FM station on a 100 ft tower at this distance and it would not legally interfere with WHTZ. This is my contention. People have insane expectations of distance. Anyone want to hazard a guess about Z-100's ratings in the 70 mile range neighborhood? Here's a hint. NOT THERE.

The HD signal covers maybe 25-30 miles of that on a car radio.

30 miles is out to the 61 dbu contour. That's basically the protected contour in "Fly Over" country and about the last 25% in this zone. It's doesn't appear to me to be "the most local HD offerings".

On the Accurian, using a T antenna, reception is hit and miss, especially over the summer months when skip becomes an issue. There are days when the HD2's aren't stable enough to even listen to.

Now, what do you THINK will happen to AM and FM reception when the antenna designs are reduced to the size or smaller of what is in the picture I displayed and the radios are in the size of a pack of cigarettes or smaller?

I think reception in all but very local situations may not work all that well. JUST LIKE NOW. IF you buy the $4.99 scan tune only FM radio and expect it to work worth a hoot unless you're under the tower you're crazy. This isn't an "HD" issue. It's a "Crappy Radio" issue. And it's here NOW.

Add that to the fact that these radios will probably be included with lets say an MP3 player, or some other digital device that may cause reception issues. I don't see people walking around with AM loops on their portable media players.

Cruddy Radios, Cruddy Reception.

Clouseau

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I think reception in all but very local situations may not work all that well. JUST LIKE NOW. IF you buy the $4.99 scan tune only FM radio and expect it to work worth a hoot unless you're under the tower you're crazy. This isn't an "HD" issue. It's a "Crappy Radio" issue. And it's here NOW.

Cruddy Radios, Cruddy Reception.

I think Shredderman peeked inside one of those radios:

http://www.mindspring.com/~shreddermanrulz/radio_9_board.jpg

It is depressing looking at what people will buy and expect to get decent reception. I feel sorry for the HD folks - you can tack on an HD decode circuit onto that piece of junk and it will do you no good at all. It might work if you are within a few miles of the tower, if you have the headphone wire extended the right way.

Here is an idea: if you are forcing people to buy new radios anyway - why didn't the FCC just make a new digital band somewhere? We are WASTING the longwave band on aircraft beacons that would be more reliable in another band. I think another poster is right - a digital only band would be extremely robust - given the hundreds of miles those AM sideband pairs travel in the daytime - much farther than analog.

 

[wgliradio]

I'm not questioning the qualifications (Especially yours), just the facts. A lot of this stuff does NOT pass the rational test.

I don't get where you are coming from.

As far as FM goes, reception of most New York FM signals goes out approx 65-70 miles outside of New York City over Long Island.

This is my point exactly. If we use the high number of 70 miles we get EXACTLY what I have been saying. Assuming WHTZ 6 KW 415 Meters from Empire as an example, the strength of this station at 70 miles (Which is a LOOOOONG way away) is 34.816.DB. To put that in perspective, you could build a 500 watt FM station on a 100 ft tower at this distance and it would not legally interfere with WHTZ. This is my contention. People have insane expectations of distance. Anyone want to hazard a guess about Z-100's ratings in the 70 mile range neighborhood? Here's a hint. NOT THERE.

AH. Incorrect. Z-100 does very well on Long Island. Many of the NYC stations rely heavily on suburban audiences... especially stations like Z and WPLJ. And the ratings are there. In fact, 5 of the top 10 on Long Island 12+ are NYC signals. If the HD signal is no good even before you're into Suffolk County, what good is it?

30 miles is out to the 61 dbu contour. That's basically the protected contour in "Fly Over" country and about the last 25% in this zone. It's doesn't appear to me to be "the most local HD offerings".

This is on a quality receiver. I would surmise that you would have issues on portable devices as close as 10-15 miles depending on terrain.

I think reception in all but very local situations may not work all that well. JUST LIKE NOW. IF you buy the $4.99 scan tune only FM radio and expect it to work worth a hoot unless you're under the tower you're crazy. This isn't an "HD" issue. It's a "Crappy Radio" issue. And it's here NOW.

But that leaves the golden goose out of the equation. At least with HD, it can fall back to analog. The HD2, is either there or not, the killer app would be useless unless you stood still.

 

[clouseau]

It is depressing looking at what people will buy and expect to get decent reception. I feel sorry for the HD folks - you can tack on an HD decode circuit onto that piece of junk and it will do you no good at all. It might work if you are within a few miles of the tower, if you have the headphone wire extended the right way.

Here is an idea: if you are forcing people to buy new radios anyway - why didn't the FCC just make a new digital band somewhere? We are WASTING the longwave band on aircraft beacons that would be more reliable in another band.

Interesting idea. Maybe DRM on LW?

I think another poster is right - a digital only band would be extremely robust - given the hundreds of miles those AM sideband pairs travel in the daytime - much farther than analog.

I had an extensive test of this last weekend in a drive in the "Not too general" vicinity of WOAI in San Antonio. I did NOT find the sidebands to outdistance the analog. Obviously YM DID Vary.

Clouseau