If "Oldies" are dying then why..........

[oldiesfantoo]

are there some many stations online that still play "oldies"? And, why is it that when you go shopping or eat out, why are so many still playing the "oldies"? These are not "Mom & Pop" places either. Plus, they are being managed by young people. I've seen the managers myself and they are not "old". Yes, the "oldies" are dead in the Atlanta area but it's hard to believe they're "dying" everywhere when you can't go out without hearing them playing in the background. Plus, if it's only the "boomers" that are interested and want to hear the "oldies", then why are there so many young people upset because the Atlanta area doesn't have a station that plays them. You ask, how do I know this, well I have talked to several and I've been online reading messages from that age group of people complaining about it and they have given their age. For example, when Sunny 100.1 died, it wasn't just boomers that were upset, that age group was upset also. To quote one, they ask "where did my oldies go"? No, I'm not saying all of that age group likes like type of music just like all of the boomers don't like that type of music. I'm just saying that it's not just boomers who like to listen to the oldies so if they would start playing them again, they would have a mixed audience. Not just all "old people". Plus, you say "give it up" well, what do you expect? They play those songs for 30-40 years and then pull the rug out from under us and expect us to take it gracefully? They should have gradually been switching over all of these years or just not kept on playing them at all and then we could have taken it much better. That would have been much better than just quitting on her "cold turkey". You don't miss what you haven't had for 30-40 years.

 

[KevinFodor]

There's a couple of trains of thought here.

First, I worked in oldies radio for quite a few years. Yes, the oldies format does attract "some" younger listeners. But, they are largely negligible in an Arbitron rating book. So, you can't sell ads with that younger audience, because there's not enough of them. Same goes for the 18-34 year olds such a station attracts. The original oldies format (50's/60's/early 70's) attracts listeners whose average age now is over 55. You don't get many advertising buys for 55+. And that's the "core" audience.

You see, that's the problem. It's not radio programmers or radio companies who are forcing the format out. It's the ad agencies and the advertisers who won't support the format with their ad dollars. I think they're wrong, for the very reasons you mention (the music being played in restuarants and stores, etc.). There are a number of studies which indicate businesses who do target the boomers can reap big rewards. For as many "not so bright" people who exist in the radio industry, there are just as many of those people in the
advertising business. Today's boomers still spend a ton of money, control a lot of spending, are much more active than the generation previous, and are brand and price concious, and will change brands if they perceive something better has come along.

But, I don't blame the stations who are "morphing" into a 60's/70's/80's mode either. There were some tremendous Top 40 and CHR stations in the 70's and 80's, too. And, in listening to some of these stations, I think the music mix works for a 35-54 audience today. The 70's and 80's crowd deserves their moment in the sun, too.

However, interestingly enough, as the radio business begins to adopt Arbitron's new Personal People Meter survey method, there could be a ray of hope for the oldies/classic hits stations that remain. Early reports indicate that the large cume audience that an oldies station attracts helps in the PPM generated ratings.
Those stations do better than some other formats. So, perhaps, if this trend continues, more companies may become interested in jumping on the bandwagon. Still, I think the days of 50's/early 60's Oldies, if not over, will become the highlight of "specialty" shows, much the same way "Doo Wop Shops" were 10-15 years ago.

But, don't feel bad. Classic rock/Classic Hits will be the next to go, though I think it's still a while off.

As the old saying goes: time marches on.

 

[fang39]

There's a couple of trains of thought here.

First, I worked in oldies radio for quite a few years. Yes, the oldies format does attract "some" younger listeners. But, they are largely negligible in an Arbitron rating book. So, you can't sell ads with that younger audience, because there's not enough of them. Same goes for the 18-34 year olds such a station attracts. The original oldies format (50's/60's/early 70's) attracts listeners whose average age now is over 55. You don't get many advertising buys for 55+. And that's the "core" audience.

You see, that's the problem. It's not radio programmers or radio companies who are forcing the format out. It's the ad agencies and the advertisers who won't support the format with their ad dollars. I think they're wrong, for the very reasons you mention (the music being played in restuarants and stores, etc.). There are a number of studies which indicate businesses who do target the boomers can reap big rewards. For as many "not so bright" people who exist in the radio industry, there are just as many of those people in the
advertising business. Today's boomers still spend a ton of money, control a lot of spending, are much more active than the generation previous, and are brand and price concious, and will change brands if they perceive something better has come along.

But, I don't blame the stations who are "morphing" into a 60's/70's/80's mode either. There were some tremendous Top 40 and CHR stations in the 70's and 80's, too. And, in listening to some of these stations, I think the music mix works for a 35-54 audience today. The 70's and 80's crowd deserves their moment in the sun, too.

However, interestingly enough, as the radio business begins to adopt Arbitron's new Personal People Meter survey method, there could be a ray of hope for the oldies/classic hits stations that remain. Early reports indicate that the large cume audience that an oldies station attracts helps in the PPM generated ratings.
Those stations do better than some other formats. So, perhaps, if this trend continues, more companies may become interested in jumping on the bandwagon. Still, I think the days of 50's/early 60's Oldies, if not over, will become the highlight of "specialty" shows, much the same way "Doo Wop Shops" were 10-15 years ago.

But, don't feel bad. Classic rock/Classic Hits will be the next to go, though I think it's still a while off.

As the old saying goes: time marches on.

Great post!

 

[OldiesCat]

Oldies

Kevin is pretty much right on.

Perhaps this should be re-titled the "Wishful Thinking" board, open to all and any who will take any small anecdotal morsel and use it to try and convince the rest of the radio world why Oldies shouldn't be fading so quickly.

Many of us who are Oldies lovers sympathize with you but reality's reality- we can whine and carp about it and commiserate with the other groupies who feel the same way but none of that will change anything regarding the state of Oldies today.

Sorry. :-\

 

[semoochie]

Since most people who like current music hate most genres of current music, what genres of 20 year old music will be played in 20 years to reach the same people? Clearly, there won't be multiple stations serving the same age group so there will have to be some compromises. Will Hip-Hop fans decide they can tolerate Country after all and visa versa? Will nothing test well because the audience is so fragmented?

 

[JbeJay]

Since most people who like current music hate most genres of current music, what genres of 20 year old music will be played in 20 years to reach the same people?

Interesting question!

Clearly, there won't be multiple stations serving the same age group ...

Why not? I think we can come up with multiple scenarios which involve "multiple stations ..."
1. If HD has potential, right away the number of possible stations would multiply.
2. If satellite radio has potential (whether one service or two), is the thought of 1000 channels out of the question?
3. If the development of streams on the internet or cellphones or who-knows-where-else has potential, is the thought of a million streams out of the question?

There is always a danger when one tries to make a straight-line projection, but please follow me on this thought:

One reason we have the fractionalized musical tastes to the extent that we do today is that we have had a greater number of radio stations with each passing decade. We had pretty much AM-only in the 50s, adding FM into the 70s, and adding the Docket80-90 stations from there. It has become increasingly possible to hear increasingly limited types of music on any given station. The child of the 50s may have accepted hearing Jerry Lee Lewis back to back with Doris Day on the same station. The child of the 90s may never have heard Metallica back to back with Celine Dion on the same station.

But if the number of available "stations" (or however we will define music sources twenty years from now) continues to increase, the idea of a station which only plays Justin Timberlake's greatest hits is a possibility.

Will Hip-Hop fans decide they can tolerate Country after all and visa versa?

I doubt it.

Will nothing test well because the audience is so fragmented?

Quite possible. In fact, if people haven't been exposed to a wide variety of music, not only will very few songs test as "popular", but perhaps very few songs will even test as "familiar". At that point -- repeat after me -- "Mass appeal is dead."

Brave new world.

Jay

 

[oldiesfantoo]

You state "It's the ad agencies and the advertisers who won't support the format with their ad dollars." That's my point. If it's the ad agencies and advertisers that is causing the format change, then why isn't it happening across the US? You can go online and find so many stations that are still playing the "oldies" and doing great! Is it the advertisers and ad agencies completely or is it the combination of them and the radio stations? Or, is it the radio stations only and the ad agencies and advertisers are being blamed so the stations don't have to take the heat? I can't help but be suspicious especially when the oldies format is still doing so good in other parts of the US but not in Atlanta.

 

[davideduardo]

You state "It's the ad agencies and the advertisers who won't support the format with their ad dollars." That's my point. If it's the ad agencies and advertisers that is causing the format change, then why isn't it happening across the US? You can go online and find so many stations that are still playing the "oldies" and doing great! Is it the advertisers and ad agencies completely or is it the combination of them and the radio stations? Or, is it the radio stations only and the ad agencies and advertisers are being blamed so the stations don't have to take the heat? I can't help but be suspicious especially when the oldies format is still doing so good in other parts of the US but not in Atlanta.

Very few oldies stations are doing as well as you obviously think.

One of two alternatives is happening:

First, the station you think of as oldies may have moved to be more of a classic hits staiton, dropping a lot of the 60's (or all of the tunes) and moving into the 70's or 70's and 80's. If so, it is no longer oldies.

Second, the station may still be 60's based, but making enough to not force a format change. Such stations are usually flat or down in revenue ofver the last 3 to 5 years, but the owner does not see a reason to changed for another yeear or two... or is evaluating a migration to classic hits. Or, the owner is in one of the market scheduled for the PPM in the next 3 years, and believes that it is unwise to change this format prior to seeing how the PPM changes the market. In all these cases, we don't have any issue except to find out when the change will come, because it will.

The final possibility, limited to just a few stations, like KOOL or WMJI, is that the station has a great morning show that brings in younger demos and the station, overall, looks good.

 

[JbeJay]

... the oldies format is still doing so good in other parts of the US but not in Atlanta.

I would add a fourth item to David's list of three.

Is it possible, when "oldiesfantoo" notes that "the oldies format is still doing so good", that he or she is seeing the openly reported 12+ numbers and is thinking that "doing so good" 12+ is meaningful by itself?

A good number in the 12+ listings does not guarantee a good number in the sales demo.

Just a thought.

Jay

 

[OldiesCat]

"Oldies" are dying

You state "It's the ad agencies and the advertisers who won't support the format with their ad dollars." That's my point. If it's the ad agencies and advertisers that is causing the format change, then why isn't it happening across the US? You can go online and find so many stations that are still playing the "oldies" and doing great! Is it the advertisers and ad agencies completely or is it the combination of them and the radio stations? Or, is it the radio stations only and the ad agencies and advertisers are being blamed so the stations don't have to take the heat? I can't help but be suspicious especially when the oldies format is still doing so good in other parts of the US but not in Atlanta.

This whole thing has nothing to do with agencies "supporting the format". Agencies and advertisers don't look at format-they look at who delivers audience, period. And, once again, advertisers are not targeting 55+ consumers with radio.

 

[KOOL Listener Lauren]

I wouldn't say oldies are dying at all. At least I can say this for Phoenix. 94.5 KOOL-FM, our oldies station here is ranked as the #1 FM station in the valley!

Also, it seems to me that oldies are becoming more popular actually, from what I can see. I'm only 17, and I know quite a few kids I met that actually knew a thing or two about oldies music... surprisingly. 8)

 

[OldiesCat]

"Oldies" are dying

One market does not represent American radio as a whole. More Top 50 radio markets don't have oldies stations than do and it's not improving. And, no offense, but the number of 17 year olds who would regularly use an oldies station is about, well, 17- nationwide.

A couple of oldies songs in movies and TV commercials doesn't mean the format will become more desirable for radio. These songs have been appearing in movies and commercials since the eighties. It's not a new development.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: "Oldies" are dying

One market does not represent American radio as a whole. More Top 50 radio markets don't have oldies stations than do and it's not improving. And, no offense, but the number of 17 year olds who would regularly use an oldies station is about, well, 17- nationwide.

In fact, less than 1% of KTAR's audience is 12-17.

 

[AZJoe]

Re: "Oldies" are dying

One market does not represent American radio as a whole. More Top 50 radio markets don't have oldies stations than do and it's not improving. And, no offense, but the number of 17 year olds who would regularly use an oldies station is about, well, 17- nationwide.

In fact, less than 1% of KTAR's audience is 12-17.

Its KOOL 94.5 not KTAR. KTAR 92.3 is the news/talk station.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: "Oldies" are dying

One market does not represent American radio as a whole. More Top 50 radio markets don't have oldies stations than do and it's not improving. And, no offense, but the number of 17 year olds who would regularly use an oldies station is about, well, 17- nationwide.

In fact, less than 1% of KTAR's audience is 12-17.

Good catch... that's what I meant, but I had just been reading the PHX book and had KTAR on the mind...

KOOL even shares the building I have one of my offices in.

 

[KOOL Listener Lauren]

Re: "Oldies" are dying

One market does not represent American radio as a whole. More Top 50 radio markets don't have oldies stations than do and it's not improving.

Okay, thanks Oldies Cat, I know what you're saying.
I'm only in Phoenix, so I can only talk about Phoenix-- so at least the Oldies format isn't "dying" everywhere, though I can't imagine we'd be so much different than every single city in the U.S.

 

[surfdude]

KOOL is a really good radio station, regardless of the format. Strong morning
show and personalities. On the streets and advertising on TV. They are successful,
because they are good. Most Oldies stations don't do those things.

Nationally, the Oldies format SHARES are up (12+). Granted there are fewer stations now.
But the ones that have stuck with it are up, on average. Saw the stats yesterday.

 

[davideduardo]

Nationally, the Oldies format SHARES are up (12+). Granted there are fewer stations now.
But the ones that have stuck with it are up, on average. Saw the stats yesterday.

But they are down 25-54, and sales are down commensurately unless they have moved to classic hits and away from "old fart" oldies.

 

[surfdude]

David. like I said the shares are up 12+. It's up to the individual stations to garner
the 25-54 (really 45-54) share, through solid programming and marketing(KOOL-FM).

Almost all Oldies stations have moved away from just 60s music.

Maybe it's time the industry retire the term Oldies. Classic Hits is a better description.

The problem with most Classic Hits stations is that they ignore the R&B hits. What a shame
to ignore Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, the Temptations, Al Green, and other great soul artists
that had hits into the 70s!!

 

[TheFonz]

Re: "Oldies" are dying

I would guess that it's because there a lot of retirees in Phoenix. Of course, with the 55+ generation growing every day there will soon be a lot of retirees EVERYWHERE.