If "Oldies" are dying then why..........

[davideduardo]

....and the 55+ can buy ipods, subscribe to Sirius or XM and tune in internet radio. 55+ age demos mean nothing to Sirius and XM, 1,000,000 old farts over 55 that spend $12.99 a month are accepted and wanted just as much as 1,000,000 20 something year olds who spend the same 12.99. Sat radio doesnt have to care about ads for music channels- there arent any- they just want numbers, and so far 15 million isnt too bad.

Yeah, it "not too bad" enough to loose $1.5 billion dollars last year, and require, per Capitol Hill testimony, a merger to have a chance at survival.

 

[TheFonz]

....and the 55+ can buy ipods, subscribe to Sirius or XM and tune in internet radio. 55+ age demos mean nothing to Sirius and XM, 1,000,000 old farts over 55 that spend $12.99 a month are accepted and wanted just as much as 1,000,000 20 something year olds who spend the same 12.99. Sat radio doesnt have to care about ads for music channels- there arent any- they just want numbers, and so far 15 million isnt too bad.

Yeah, it "not too bad" enough to loose $1.5 billion dollars last year, and require, per Capitol Hill testimony, a merger to have a chance at survival.

Seems to me that terrestrial radio merged a while back. Can you say "Clear Channel"?

 

[AZJoe]

DE, go back to programming your Spanish oldies and leave the real oldies to people who care, you obvioulsy dont, and being a dinosaur you arent relevant anymore either.

 

[davideduardo]

Seems to me that terrestrial radio merged a while back. Can you say "Clear Channel"?

At last count, there were over 4000 owners of radio stations, and none has more than 5% of the total stations. In the case of satellite, there would be a sigle operator for the whole country with 100% of the satellite operations in one company's hands.

 

[davideduardo]

DE, go back to programming your Spanish oldies and leave the real oldies to people who care, you obvioulsy dont, and being a dinosaur you arent relevant anymore either.

I don't "program Spanish oldies" as 1. I work with all our stations and, 2. we do Spanish adult hits, not oldies (average age of listeners 36). As I recall, our group was the only one that got two A's for programming growth in the "Ratings Report Card" in 2006... so we must be doing something right.

P.S. Oldies are oldies in any language.

 

[wangchung]

Back on point gentlemen...


I don't see Oldies as dying. Locally, our "oldies" station has done quite well for themselves by keeping the library strong, and their delivery entertaining and fresh.

At the same time, and just as important, we have the listeners to support that format here. Very heavy on white-collar baby boomers and retirees.

So maybe Oldies is failing in YOUR market, maybe there isn't the demographic makeup to drive their ratings. But for a lot of other markets, the format is one thing: consistent. So don't be so fast to shovel dirt on it's face anytime soon.

 

[AZJoe]

The premature death of oldies has been reported for the last couple of decades... the fact is "oldies" are listened to by many people that werent even alive in the 50's and 60's. This music has lived and thrived beyond certain age and demographics, and there is a reason- its good. Good music doesnt simply fall out of favor and /or listening- it can pick up new listeners and keep on surviving- oh yeah- it has for over 50 years.

 

[TheFonz]

At last count, there were over 4000 owners of radio stations, and none has more than 5% of the total stations. In the case of satellite, there would be a sigle operator for the whole country with 100% of the satellite operations in one company's hands.

With over 100 different formats, I don't see that as a problem for the consumer. And satellite IS responsive to consumers, not to advertisers. How refreshing is THAT?

 

[BACKnUSSR]

Seems to me that terrestrial radio merged a while back. Can you say "Clear Channel"?

At last count, there were over 4000 owners of radio stations, and none has more than 5% of the total stations. In the case of satellite, there would be a sigle operator for the whole country with 100% of the satellite operations in one company's hands.

Thats only if you separate the "satellite radio" business from the "radio business". That is exactly the argument Karmazin et. al are making.....XM isn't the only competitor....so are those other 4000 operators.

 

[davideduardo]

The premature death of oldies has been reported for the last couple of decades... the fact is "oldies" are listened to by many people that werent even alive in the 50's and 60's. This music has lived and thrived beyond certain age and demographics, and there is a reason- its good. Good music doesnt simply fall out of favor and /or listening- it can pick up new listeners and keep on surviving- oh yeah- it has for over 50 years.

Looking at one of the best performing traditional oldies stations in the US, KOOL in Phoenix, only 18% of listening is by 25-44, while 45% is over 55. Knowing that some diary mentions are due to people who are forced to hear a station, some of the under-45 can be eliminated there.

In Houston, in the PPM, KHTC, which is classic hits and not oldies, shows 19% 25-44, proving that whether we have 60's or 70's based oldies the prime listener is the one who grew up listening to the music such stations play.

Every partisan thinks their favorite music is good. A hip hop partisan likely thinks your music is not good, and you may well think hip hop is not good, either. But to defend the goodness of a kind of music is looking at the taste of others through your personal perspective.

 

[kturnerga]

The last post is right. Sometimes the demo for oldies is there and it isn't just the Viagara Gang driving it. It was 1993 and the boss of the sports area near the car stereos heard me listening to oldies. He said, "I hear you like them oldies, doncha". I got tired of urban and there weren't any really good pop stations (pop went down the tubes starting back then). The station played mostly Sixties and Fifties until the demo for that went away (we have primarily urban and new country nowadays). I was a 1966 model so I lived through a smidgin of them.

My point is to check the demographics first. Middle class and largely educated 24 and up drive the oldies though the youngsters 18-23 aren't to be discounted.

I will be frank with you; a big problem with oldies stations is the programmers who drown us with a slender playlist of worn-out standards such as "California Dreamin'" and "Happy Together". One station in my burg likes late Seventies crud heavily laden with disco. There is no excuse for a poorly programmed oldies station. If you listen to a WLS or WABC aircheck you'll want to throw a rock at some of the stations- especially that cruddy Jones Radio feed.

 

[MusicMaestro]

The premature death of oldies has been reported for the last couple of decades... the fact is "oldies" are listened to by many people that werent even alive in the 50's and 60's. This music has lived and thrived beyond certain age and demographics, and there is a reason- its good. Good music doesnt simply fall out of favor and /or listening- it can pick up new listeners and keep on surviving- oh yeah- it has for over 50 years.

My thoughts EXACTLY!!!! I've come across many young people over recent years who have asked me about the songs/artists that were playing on my radio or at my place of employment (we have satelitte & I always make a point to have either the oldies channel or big band/swing channel on), & i've gotten many more positive comments about it than negative. Thank the Lord for CD's that recorded the great music of the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's, because it is a pleasant reminder that there were musicians & songs around back then who put out some wonderful entertainment for the pleasure of the masses.

 

[firepoint525]

Interesting discussion so far. I've always wondered why "oldies" stations seemed reluctant to play anything after, say, 1975, especially since the music of the '70s (and even '80s) are now older than the "oldies" of the '50s and '60s were when I was a kid. I've just sort of always thought that anything more than about 20 years old qualified as an "oldie." I didn't know the term "oldie" was "frozen in time" to only apply to the 1955-1975 time frame.

I am 43, soon to be 44 this month, and I was a part of the last high school graduating class of baby boomers (1982). It would seem that I am near the middle of the target age group of the "classic hits" stations, yet they, too, disappoint me by playing only the same handful of songs over and over again! Even the "deep cuts" aren't really all that "deep" anymore, and "deep cut" is just another tired overused radio cliche. If you are going to program to my generation, at least program your station the way we remember listening to radio when we were growing up! We aren't afraid of the songs that you won't play for us. We grew up listening to this music, remember? It's our generation's music!

I always thought the baby boom generation was so large that they would dominate society, including music. I never thought they would be put out to pasture. I actually thought the '60s, and its music, would live forever! (Notice I am using third person in this paragraph here, because I am mainly referring to the older half of the baby boom generation.) Since I am the second half of the baby boom generation, I am glad to see that "my" generation's music is finally having its time in the sun! I just wish more of it would see the light of day again. I've been around long enough to see that "retro" runs in 20-year cycles, so the '80s seem to be "hot" again!

 

[XTalker]

We had these same discussions in the early 80s as we watched the Beautiful Music listeners age out of the money demos while there was NOTHING to bring younger people into the format.

Oldies has faced the same problem, it has just taken longer. The station that want to be successful today with an Oldies format has got to look carefully at he musical roots of the core money demo!

I think you can still play 60s and 70s music, but you must start to think about the great songs of the 80s and 90s and how they fit with the more rock and roll mood.

 

[LKellerIII]

I agree with Xtalker - I think we have to put this in perspective. Playlists consisting of music from 1965 to 1975 means this music is from 32 to 42 years old. Being a baby boomer, I remember the "MOR" stations my parents listened to in the 1960s. These stations played primarily current pop of the day - Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Andy Williams, Jack Jones, etc. Occasionally they threw in an "oldie," but they never went back further than the early 50s - about a decade before. They never played Big Band music- "Standards" formats didn't come along until the 1980s. And you would certainly never hear a song from 42 years previously - that would have been the 1920s!

It's shocking to think of it, but 60s Oldies songs are now about as old as the music played by "Standards" stations was in the 1980s.

 

[XTalker]

I wish I could remember who planted this seed in my brain, - a former PD, GM, or maybe even a consultant or research type - but here goes:

To develop an adult format, you have to go back to the listener's musical roots. When BM station were doing so well with instrumental versions of popular songs, it was because the chosen demo had grown up on most instrumental, big band type music. They were the generation that was convinced rock and roll was the end of the earth and in the 70s and early 80s, they were a powerful money demo.

As the audience aged, stations in the format starting playing vocals - even the vocals by the original artists. I recall the mix of 1 vocal to 3 instrumentals. Of course, that didn't sit too well with the older demos, and wasn't enough to attract the younger ones and ultimately the format died.

Many BM stations transitioned to music intensive, soft AC formats. I remember the test was "no raunchy guitar". Music tests were conducted against the core, and the upper and lower fringes. In order to be played, the song had to be loved by the core, liked by one fringe and not disliked by the other. Pretty basic.

The successful "oldies" station will constantly modify its music library, and allow the audience to grow through the format rather than the format growing old with the audience. And still have to be careful to consider musical roots of the core and younger targeted listeners.

 

[LKellerIII]

"Many BM stations transitioned to music intensive, soft AC formats. I remember the test was "no raunchy guitar". Music tests were conducted against the core, and the upper and lower fringes. In order to be played, the song had to be loved by the core, liked by one fringe and not disliked by the other. Pretty basic."

Right! That's exactly the evolution of KOIT in the SF Bay Area. The station changed from BM to "light rock" - which at first was VERY light. Over the 20 year (or so) life of their very successful format, the definition of "light rock" has gotten broader, and now includes some maintstream rock - Bruce Springsteen, and others.

 

[firepoint525]

I agree with Xtalker - I think we have to put this in perspective. Playlists consisting of music from 1965 to 1975 means this music is from 32 to 42 years old. Being a baby boomer, I remember the "MOR" stations my parents listened to in the 1960s. These stations played primarily current pop of the day - Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Andy Williams, Jack Jones, etc. Occasionally they threw in an "oldie," but they never went back further than the early 50s - about a decade before. They never played Big Band music- "Standards" formats didn't come along until the 1980s. And you would certainly never hear a song from 42 years previously - that would have been the 1920s!
It's shocking to think of it, but 60s Oldies songs are now about as old as the music played by "Standards" stations was in the 1980s.

Interesting observations, Lkeller, but a couple of points to ponder: 1) The generation before the baby boomers (the ones Tom Brokaw calls the greatest generation) were never catered to the way the baby boomers have been, and thus probably never demanded to hear the songs from their teenage years right into middle age and beyond! Aside from that, their life expectancy wasn't as long, either. And up until recently, the last few years, baby boomers have been the preferred advertising demographic. Now, MY generation (the second half of the baby boom, the baco-boomers as someone called us) and the leading edge of generation X appear to be the advertisers' preferred audience. 2) Wasn't radio carrying soap operas and other dramas back in the 1920s, right up until the advent of television, when the soaps went to TV? It was during the boomers' childhood (the 1950s) that radio had to reinvent itself, as a source of music, rather than dramas.

You must be a little older than me, Lkeller. I was born in 1963, and I will turn 44 later this month. I barely remember the '60s (no, I wasn't "there" ;D), so I certainly don't remember much about what my parents listened to on the radio. My generation is an interesting one, because I don't relate to much of what the "boomers" were into, yet I'm too old to get into the Nirvana and grunge that GenX was into. We were the non-descript kids born in the first half of the 1960s, during the Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson administrations. ;D

 

[gr8oldies]

My grandmother, who was in her 60s in the 60s, listened to WOWO in the car and in the house, more for the news and companionship than the music (she couldn't stand it..her taste were more in line with Lawrence Welk though she did like the Cowsills). My mother listened to the local station primarily, again news and companionship as well as the swap-shop type show (her musical tastes were early 50s through the earliest Elvis). My Dad listened to country on the radio, especially while driving (WMGS in Bowling Green,OH..now Jimmy Swaggarts's WJYM was a favorite). My grandmother's generation wouldn't have known an all-music station, or the portabilty of radio that we knew in later generations. An oldies station for my grandma....probably old big band music. If there was such an animal for my mother, it would have sounded a lot like MOYL at its inception.

 

[LKellerIII]

"You must be a little older than me, Lkeller. I was born in 1963, and I will turn 44 later this month. I barely remember the '60s (no, I wasn't "there"), so I certainly don't remember much about what my parents listened to on the radio. My generation is an interesting one, because I don't relate to much of what the "boomers" were into, yet I'm too old to get into the Nirvana and grunge that GenX was into. We were the non-descript kids born in the first half of the 1960s, during the Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson administrations."

That would make me 11 years older than you, Firepoint. My point was only that it's probably unprecedented to hear 40 year old music on the radio. There were rock oldies stations as far back as the mid 70s (K-Earth in LA, for example), but they played music from the 50s and early 60s then - only about 15 - 20 years old at the time.

I enjoy Oldies stations, and hope they hang around a bit longer. But I've read a lot of threads on radio-info about how evil and greedy station owners are for abandoning Oldies formats, and a lot of hand-wringing because advertisers don't want to buy time on stations that cater to...well, older people, like myself. So I was just trying to put it all in perspective.