K-G-Oh my gawd!

[chris319]

Do you think that Cumulus would purposely make a substantial programming change if they didn't believe it would improve their bottom line?

What they believe and what actually happens are two different things, no matter how experienced or qualified their management may be.

I predict KGO's ratings won't recover in the foreseeable future, either overall or in the demos of interest.

 

[davideduardo]

If I am looking at it right, KCBS didn't crack the top 5 in the last book. Let's see what the next round reveals.

KCBS is 5th in 25-54 in the Holiday book, and has has been in the same share range for many many books.

While having a high rank insures a station will be "on the buy" keep in mind that most agency buys include multiple stations to get the desired reach of total audience. Pricing is based on audience delivery, not rank and the KCBS audience delivery is quite consistent.

 

[DavidKaye]

If I am looking at it right, KCBS didn't crack the top 5 in the last book. Let's see what the next round reveals.

Uh, KCBS was #2 and if it weren't for KOIT's Xmas music KCBS would have been #1 again.

KGO needs a makeover, but what they are currently offering, won't cut the mustard.

How do you know this? How does anybody know this? If you'll notice, all talk stations except KALW went down during the Holiday book, as often happens when people are gussying up for the holidays. Once again, I am not willing to count out KGO so fast. Love 'em or hate 'em, Cumulus is not going to put somebody who doesn't know anything in charge of a multi-million dollar radio station. Companies, especially publicly traded ones, do NOT purposely trash their assets.

 

[MC]

Some guy that would advertise "Retirement Seminars" I think he was after 55+...as well as younger people. It was picked to people "in retirement" or ready to retire. There was also ads offering "medicare supplemental insurance," and ads for AARP and "generation America" (some new retirement group competing with AARP.) Also, political ads like older people because they vote.

So no one buying over 55+ is more for big brands. I believe a Ronn Owens ad for a car dealer is not directed for young people for example.

 

[Phedeks]

Why are you so pro cumulus? You also said this cost cutting move wouldn't be that big of a deal for ratings blah blah. They messed up and will suffer for it. Unless KGO goes back to a talk format they will continue to fall. You have waaaay too much faith in Cumulus. Do you work for them or something?

If I am looking at it right, KCBS didn't crack the top 5 in the last book. Let's see what the next round reveals.

Uh, KCBS was #2 and if it weren't for KOIT's Xmas music KCBS would have been #1 again.

KGO needs a makeover, but what they are currently offering, won't cut the mustard.

How do you know this? How does anybody know this? If you'll notice, all talk stations except KALW went down during the Holiday book, as often happens when people are gussying up for the holidays. Once again, I am not willing to count out KGO so fast. Love 'em or hate 'em, Cumulus is not going to put somebody who doesn't know anything in charge of a multi-million dollar radio station. Companies, especially publicly traded ones, do NOT purposely trash their assets.

 

[DavidKaye]

Why are you so pro cumulus? You also said this cost cutting move wouldn't be that big of a deal for ratings blah blah. They messed up and will suffer for it. Unless KGO goes back to a talk format they will continue to fall. You have waaaay too much faith in Cumulus. Do you work for them or something?

I am clearly NOT pro-Cumulus, if you had taken the time to read my posts. I previously said that I felt they were clods in the way they handled the firings of their staff. I have no respect for them as a company.

But I'm not writing about my personal feelings. When I make posts about the broadcasting industry I don't write about my personal feelings unless I clearly state that this is the case (such as my preference for talkshow hosts, etc.) I try to write about the industry, not about me.

I do not work for Cumulus and I don't wish to work for Cumulus. I do not hold stock in Cumulus. Oddly enough, I hold stock in CBS but I don't talk about them much here because there's not much to say about them. They seem to be doing things right.

Now, I've long felt that their second-string talkshow hosts were better than their first-string. It happens that with the exception of Ronn Owens they got rid of all their first-string. For them it was more likely a money move. For me it was a quality move (except for Gil Gross who I feel was a cut above anybody else at KGO and should have been kept). So, as far as I'm concerned the staff they kept was an improvement over the staff they fired. And as for the current format, all I've ever said was wait and see. Wait and see. Ratings don't climb overnight anymore, especially for AM stations. Wait and see.

 

[HCochet]

Now, I've long felt that their second-string talkshow hosts were better than their first-string. It happens that with the exception of Ronn Owens they got rid of all their first-string. For them it was more likely a money move. For me it was a quality move (except for Gil Gross who I feel was a cut above anybody else at KGO and should have been kept). So, as far as I'm concerned the staff they kept was an improvement over the staff they fired. And as for the current format, all I've ever said was wait and see. Wait and see. Ratings don't climb overnight anymore, especially for AM stations. Wait and see.


[/quote]

You mean except for Karel, right? You can't possibly like his show.

 

[Phedeks]

We'll see what happens. But how can you possibly think their second tier hosts are better than the first?

Why are you so pro cumulus? You also said this cost cutting move wouldn't be that big of a deal for ratings blah blah. They messed up and will suffer for it. Unless KGO goes back to a talk format they will continue to fall. You have waaaay too much faith in Cumulus. Do you work for them or something?

I am clearly NOT pro-Cumulus, if you had taken the time to read my posts. I previously said that I felt they were clods in the way they handled the firings of their staff. I have no respect for them as a company.

But I'm not writing about my personal feelings. When I make posts about the broadcasting industry I don't write about my personal feelings unless I clearly state that this is the case (such as my preference for talkshow hosts, etc.) I try to write about the industry, not about me.

I do not work for Cumulus and I don't wish to work for Cumulus. I do not hold stock in Cumulus. Oddly enough, I hold stock in CBS but I don't talk about them much here because there's not much to say about them. They seem to be doing things right.

Now, I've long felt that their second-string talkshow hosts were better than their first-string. It happens that with the exception of Ronn Owens they got rid of all their first-string. For them it was more likely a money move. For me it was a quality move (except for Gil Gross who I feel was a cut above anybody else at KGO and should have been kept). So, as far as I'm concerned the staff they kept was an improvement over the staff they fired. And as for the current format, all I've ever said was wait and see. Wait and see. Ratings don't climb overnight anymore, especially for AM stations. Wait and see.

 

[airwavez]

CUMMMMUUULLUUUSSS...THE POWER OF RADDIOOOOOOOO (SUNG)

 

[weav]

Companies, especially publicly traded ones, do NOT purposely trash their assets.

Companies do not deliberately make moves that intentionally trash their assets, usually.

However companies deliberately make boneheaded moves that seem (to them) very smart but wind up trashing their assets.

The Tumulus guys seem more and more like the sort to do the latter.

 

[DavidKaye]

We'll see what happens. But how can you possibly think their second tier hosts are better than the first?

Because I believe they are. I've listened to every talkshow host on KGO and I spent 2 years as a talkshow host myself. The only fired KGO hosts that are consistently good enough to hold my interest are Gil Gross and Len Tillem.

I just think that John Rothmann, Ray Taliaferro, Gene Burns, and Joanie Greggains have been coasting for many years, not bringing anything new or refreshing to their broadcasts.

 

[MC]

I don't see Gil Gross or Len as being that innovative. The other hosts people saw as freinds that they were comfortable with. Round the clock news is for cab drivers and night watchmen. Cummulus now has a station with worse ratings. Weekend talk and Ron Owens is not going to save them.

 

[nitnitr]

Why are you so pro cumulus? You also said this cost cutting move wouldn't be that big of a deal for ratings blah blah. They messed up and will suffer for it. Unless KGO goes back to a talk format they will continue to fall. You have waaaay too much faith in Cumulus. Do you work for them or something?

I am clearly NOT pro-Cumulus, if you had taken the time to read my posts. I previously said that I felt they were clods in the way they handled the firings of their staff. I have no respect for them as a company.

But I'm not writing about my personal feelings. When I make posts about the broadcasting industry I don't write about my personal feelings unless I clearly state that this is the case (such as my preference for talkshow hosts, etc.) I try to write about the industry, not about me.

I do not work for Cumulus and I don't wish to work for Cumulus. I do not hold stock in Cumulus. Oddly enough, I hold stock in CBS but I don't talk about them much here because there's not much to say about them. They seem to be doing things right.

Now, I've long felt that their second-string talkshow hosts were better than their first-string. It happens that with the exception of Ronn Owens they got rid of all their first-string. For them it was more likely a money move. For me it was a quality move (except for Gil Gross who I feel was a cut above anybody else at KGO and should have been kept). So, as far as I'm concerned the staff they kept was an improvement over the staff they fired. And as for the current format, all I've ever said was wait and see. Wait and see. Ratings don't climb overnight anymore, especially for AM stations. Wait and see.

It appears I opened up a can of worms, and maybe should keep my personal opinions to myself, but I grew up on KGO, and certainly things have changed there, as they should, over the years. I just miss what they used to be, and likely jumped the gun with my comments on their current circumstances.

Ratings, as you mentioned, vary widely now days. Can't always depend on staying on top, or even in the top 10 in a market the size of San Francisco, from one ratings period to another. The listeners are finicky, and might need time to get used to the new staff at KGO. Wait and see, as you said.

 

[LKellerIII]

"Wait and See" is fine, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the new KGO won't be popular. The Bay Area does not need another All News station. KCBS is a 40+ year habit for Bay Area listeners, and now has an FM simulcast. Over the past decade, NPR has become immensely popular, and is now included in the Arbitron ratings. The best KGO can hope for is to shave a rating point off each of these two competitors.

IMO, Cumulus should have done the opposite if saving money was the goal - jettison most of the news staff, keep the talk shows and add morning and afternoon drive talk shows where the news blocks were, and then introduce some younger talk hosts who could attract that desirable demographic. The talk shows were always KGO's strength, not those news blocks, which were an anachronism, in my opinion. But doing it the way I suggested would have taken time to work, so I guess it was easier to blow the whole thing up and start over.

I predict a year of low ratings, followed by a return to talk shows...probably of the syndicated variety, sadly.

 

[Gregg]

Let's remember why Cumulus did what it did. KGO's demos were getting too old. Even though it was #7 in the overall ratings, David Eduardo told us they were only #20 in the 25-54 demo. Yet in the morning, when they were All-News, they were #14 25-54.

So Cumulus says "Why are we paying all this money to Talk hosts who do worse in the money ratings than our All-News blocks?" So they get rid of all the Talk hosts (except Ronn Owens who reportedly has a no-cut contract... he gets paid the same whether he's on the air or off the air). And they simply extend the All-News blocks, only hiring one additional anchor.

The problem is, Cumulus didn't realize the Talk hosts recycle the audience into the All-News blocks. Without Gil Gross, Gene Burns, Ray Taiiaferro, etc. people would just tune into KCBS for their All-News fix.

And these days, I don't think you can run an All-News station that isn't All-News around the clock. The only successful one is WBZ Boston, which runs All-News by day and Talk at night. But that's weekends as well as weekdays. KGO's schedule is too confusing. All-News in morning drive, then again Noon to Midnight but Talk 9am-Noon and syndicated talk overnight and specialty talk on weekends.

One poster also suggested Cumulus cut its own throat by scheduling more commercials per hour on KGO than ABC and later Citadel did, not realizing its primary competition is not KCBS but KQED which runs no commercials. Yes, a few times a year, there are pledge drives but 48 weeks a year, KGO is competing with a non-commercial station.

I guess Cumulus figures people will sit through more commercials per hour on an All-News station than a Talk station. On KCBS, a minute or two of commercials air between every segment, every couple of minutes. On a Talk station, hosts talk want to talk for several minutes, then play several mintues of spots, along with news and traffic reports.

So Cumulus believes All-News KGO will make more money than Mostly Talk with Some News Blocks KGO. But I don't think the audience will go along with an All-News station that's only All-News 16 hours a day on weekdays and not at all on weekends.




Gregg
[email protected]

 

[davideduardo]

Over the past decade, NPR has become immensely popular, and is now included in the Arbitron ratings.

IMO, Cumulus should have done the opposite if saving money was the goal - jettison most of the news staff, keep the talk shows and add morning and afternoon drive talk shows where the news blocks were, and then introduce some younger talk hosts who could attract that desirable demographic.

The talk on KGO was scoring dismally in the key sales demographics and the slide was even greater once the PPM was introduced. Being an AM with a very old demo that is as much a function of the band as anything else does not have any simple solution.

A few AM talk stations have managed to build a 25-54 following, the most notable being KFI in Los Angeles. But KFI had no 40-year heritage to live down and no geezer image that prevents younger demos from listening... KFI pretty much got its jumpstart in the mid to late 90's and is a very young station. KGO isn't, and that's not an advantage.

 

[DavidKaye]

Ratings, as you mentioned, vary widely now days. Can't always depend on staying on top, or even in the top 10 in a market the size of San Francisco, from one ratings period to another. The listeners are finicky, and might need time to get used to the new staff at KGO. Wait and see, as you said.

When the next two ratings reports come out I won't be as interested in whether KGO's ratings rise as to whether KKSF's ratings rise. If they do then we know that the particular talkshow hosts mattered. If they don't then we know that KGO's dial position, power, and/or longevity figure more into their ratings success than any particular talkshow lineup.

 

[DavidKaye]

A few AM talk stations have managed to build a 25-54 following, the most notable being KFI in Los Angeles. But KFI had no 40-year heritage to live down and no geezer image that prevents younger demos from listening...

I don't agree with that part because in my informal survey I held at a BART station about 8 years ago most of the people I spoke with didn't even know the callsign KGO. Those who did identified it with the TV station, not the radio station. In the dozens of people I spoke with I think I got 2 people who actually knew that KGO was a talk radio station.

So, I don't think there's anything geezer to live down.

 

[davideduardo]

So, I don't think there's anything geezer to live down.

You may be right... but keep in mind that the only under-55 age cell that gets significant AM talk numbers is 45-54, with a little 35-44 spillage. The format itself, even on FM, does not appeal to very many in the under 40 age groups. So unless you talked to people in that 45+ age group, they won't know KGO. And there is part of the issue... the younger people who move into the potential talk demos have no idea about KGO, and don't use AM so will not discover it anyway.

 

[MC]

People selling Medicare supplemental insurance, ocean cruises, cataract surgery and political ads may appeal to old people, but most advertisers want people who can be motivated to change their buying behavior. I don't see young people wanting 24/7 news however.