K-G-Oh my gawd!

[DavidKaye]

You may be right... but keep in mind that the only under-55 age cell that gets significant AM talk numbers is 45-54, with a little 35-44 spillage. The format itself, even on FM, does not appeal to very many in the under 40 age groups. So unless you talked to people in that 45+ age group, they won't know KGO. And there is part of the issue... the younger people who move into the potential talk demos have no idea about KGO, and don't use AM so will not discover it anyway.

And yet, NPR draws much better in the younger demographics. I'd say it's probably a function of the kind of talkradio being done. NPR tends to be fact-based, with experts being brought on to give their expertise, whereas the staple of commercial talkradio is what I call the "Joe in Moraga" factor, the know-nothing caller spouting things he's seen on TV, with no real knowledge of the topic at hand, only his own prejudices.

As for me I much prefer the NPR approach to the KGO (et al) approach.

 

[davideduardo]

People selling Medicare supplemental insurance, ocean cruises, cataract surgery and political ads may appeal to old people, but most advertisers want people who can be motivated to change their buying behavior. I don't see young people wanting 24/7 news however.

Good points, and it occurs to me that older consumers are, for cataract surgery and cruises and Medicare supplements, "New Consumers" in that they have no brand loyalty or preferences. So the selling job is pretty easy, compared to getting a lifelong Toyota owner to buy a Ford.

 

[davideduardo]

And yet, NPR draws much better in the younger demographics. I'd say it's probably a function of the kind of talkradio being done.

Here is an interesting comparison of KQED with LA's KFI. The Center-Left vs. Limbaugh, so to speak.

KQED composition
25-34 7%
35-44 17%
45-54 26%
55-64 24%
65+ 21%

KFI
25-34 7%
35-33 11%
45-54 22%
55-64 28%
65+ 27%

Give KQED a bit of an advantage for being FM, and what I think you have is some evidence that compelling or entertaining programming works... were KFI on FM, it is likely that the under-55 could be 25% to 30% better, too.

 

[JEREMIAH]

Sometimes being in the business can give you tunnel vision.
David Kaye's informal survey at a Bart station 8 years ago resonated with me.
During my 20 years in SF, KSFO, KGO-TV and radio I aways thought that KGO was a household word.
Then I actually met people in the 80's & 90's who never heard of KGO. Yeah, I was surprised ...welcome to the real world.

Jerry Gordon, Jack B. show, Salem radio network

 

[davideduardo]

Sometimes being in the business can give you tunnel vision.

Sometimes being out of it does the same thing. The frequent posts by 50's and 60's oldies lovers would lead you to believe that everyone over 40 loves those now-shopworn tunes. The fact is that in most markets, the cume rating of oldies-type stations tends to be around 10% to 12% of those over 55... not 100%... and indicating that about 90% of the people don't use such stations, a big percentage of whom probably don't even know that an oldies station even exists in their market.

Talk is the same... the vast majority of people don't use that format and loads of them don't know the stations that "do that."

A number of times I have surveyed random people in quite a few different markets as to how many local radio stations they can name, the high end is around 8, and the average is more like 4 or 5. Very often, people will name stations that don't exist any more but which they liked or liked at one time.

 

[DavidKaye]

Here is an interesting comparison of KQED with LA's KFI. The Center-Left vs. Limbaugh, so to speak.

KQED composition
25-34 7%
35-44 17%
45-54 26%
55-64 24%
65+ 21%

KFI
25-34 7%
35-33 11%
45-54 22%
55-64 28%
65+ 27%

I've noticed that right-leaning talkradio draws younger than left-leaning. For instance, KSFO draws (or at least drew) younger than KGO. I'm thinking that might be the same with WABC. Can you dig up the stats on that?

 

[onairb]

Sometimes being in the business can give you tunnel vision.
David Kaye's informal survey at a Bart station 8 years ago resonated with me.
During my 20 years in SF, KSFO, KGO-TV and radio I aways thought that KGO was a household word.
Then I actually met people in the 80's & 90's who never heard of KGO. Yeah, I was surprised ...welcome to the real world.

Jerry Gordon, Jack B. show, Salem radio network

I grew up in the Bay Area during the '80s and 90s. Aside from some kids in junior high and high school who listened to Giants and A's broadcasts, I don't think the other 99.9% of my classmates knew what AM radio was. I do remember some discussion when KSFO changed ownership in '83, since it seemed like evryone's parents listened to that station, but by the late '80s, FM radio was so dominant, that I think I was the only one in my schools who listened to it for more than sports.

 

[davideduardo]

I've noticed that right-leaning talkradio draws younger than left-leaning. For instance, KSFO draws (or at least drew) younger than KGO. I'm thinking that might be the same with WABC. Can you dig up the stats on that?

WABC is not a top tier performer, so much of the data reflects a mediocre station, not the appeal of a good talker.

25-34 3%
35-44 5%
45-54 19%
55-64 21%
65+ 47%

So, the 55+ is 58% based on the three pre-Holiday books.

 

[HCochet]

Sometimes being in the business can give you tunnel vision.
David Kaye's informal survey at a Bart station 8 years ago resonated with me.
During my 20 years in SF, KSFO, KGO-TV and radio I aways thought that KGO was a household word.
Then I actually met people in the 80's & 90's who never heard of KGO. Yeah, I was surprised ...welcome to the real world.

Jerry Gordon, Jack B. show, Salem radio network

I grew up in the Bay Area during the '80s and 90s. Aside from some kids in junior high and high school who listened to Giants and A's broadcasts, I don't think the other 99.9% of my classmates knew what AM radio was. I do remember some discussion when KSFO changed ownership in '83, since it seemed like evryone's parents listened to that station, but by the late '80s, FM radio was so dominant, that I think I was the only one in my schools who listened to it for more than sports.

What is "FM"? Never heard of it

 

[DavidKaye]

What is "FM"? Never heard of it

The teenaged son of one of my clients listens to WNYC's Radiolab, but listens to it as a podcast, not over the air. He doesn't have a radio.

 

[LKellerIII]

What is "FM"? Never heard of it

The teenaged son of one of my clients listens to WNYC's Radiolab, but listens to it as a podcast, not over the air. He doesn't have a radio.

My daughter (now 16) liked Radio Disney when she was about 8, and graduated to Wild 94.9 for a couple of years between about age 10 and 12. I asked her what radio station she liked now, and she laughed at me. It's all about computer downloading and MP3 players now. And no - she doesn't like sports or talk, though she will watch the Giants or 49ers on TV.

 

[DavidKaye]

My daughter (now 16) liked Radio Disney when she was about 8, and graduated to Wild 94.9 for a couple of years between about age 10 and 12. I asked her what radio station she liked now, and she laughed at me. It's all about computer downloading and MP3 players now. And no - she doesn't like sports or talk, though she will watch the Giants or 49ers on TV.

Funny, I never think of online posters as having lives outside of the online world. Children? Marriage? I'm shocked!

But you bring out an important point. Radio appears to be yesterday's technology, and while there will still be a niche for radio just as there is a niche for 33rpm records, cassette tapes, and horse carriages, it will be a niche nonetheless.

 

[MC]

A statistic out of the Florida Republican Primary showed that 38% of voters were over 65 years old, so over 54 years old must have been at least 50-60%. Therefore radio election ads hit a big percentage of likely voters or at least Republican voters. Trouble is they don't hold enough big elections.

Back in the 60's and 70's they had a number of psycho-babble talk shows, they all dried up for the most part except for Roy Masters. I think the political talk is trended in the same direction. Tech shows, Leo Laporte and Komando seem to be holding their own niche.

 

[kirksan]

But you bring out an important point. Radio appears to be yesterday's technology, and while there will still be a niche for radio just as there is a niche for 33rpm records, cassette tapes, and horse carriages, it will be a niche nonetheless.

I think radio will have a place for some time, at least until wireless Internet access is ubiquitous. You still can't beat radio for talk, news and traffic updates. Personally, I drive from the city to Russian River a couple of times a month. Music comes straight from the iPhone of-course, why listen to broadcast music stations and their ads when you can listen to whatever you want? If I want to listen to talk and there's nothing on KQED that interests me (910 doesn't have the reach and I've given up on KGO) then I'll stream twit.tv, or something similar, until I lose Internet access in the last half hour of the drive, at that point it's KQED or nothing.

Once Internet is available and reliable in out of the way areas broadcast radio is in trouble IMHO, but that's going to take several years, maybe a decade. At some point streaming will be so reliable there won't be any need for over-the-air radio and I think the spectrum currently used for AM and FM will be reclaimed.

Does anyone have an opinion of when that will happen? My guess is 20 years, but it could be much sooner. The only thing holding back the change, besides the unavailability of mobile Internet, are emergency communications. That will disappear when the Internet is everywhere and there are more streaming "radios" manufactured than traditional radios, and that time is coming. Personally, even at home in San Francisco I prefer to stream KQED, 910, and other broadcast stations. Even though I get a fine signal in SF, it's more convenient to stream from the same device that stores my music and is already hooked up to whatever speakers I want to use. Why bother with a radio when I don't need one?

 

[tripton99]

I gotta figure there will be no place for music radio in a decade. I haven't gotten up on my soapbox in a long time, but it annoys the hell out of me how thousands of radio stations use pre-recorded music as the basis for their programming and except for songwriter royalties they pay squat for it. Not only do they get that programming for free, but they more often than not won't even give any credit to the artists or identify the titles of the songs they play. And worse yet, most stations can't even be bothered to play new music.

What future traditional radio may have is gonna be the news and/or talk kind. Young people have already migrated to other media for their music.

That's it. My rant for the decade.

 

[LKellerIII]

I gotta figure there will be no place for music radio in a decade. I haven't gotten up on my soapbox in a long time, but it annoys the hell out of me how thousands of radio stations use pre-recorded music as the basis for their programming and except for songwriter royalties they pay squat for it. Not only do they get that programming for free, but they more often than not won't even give any credit to the artists or identify the titles of the songs they play. And worse yet, most stations can't even be bothered to play new music.

What future traditional radio may have is gonna be the news and/or talk kind. Young people have already migrated to other media for their music.

That's it. My rant for the decade.

It's hard to predict the future, of course. TV was supposed to be the death of both radio and theatrical movies, but after some growing pains, both adapted to the changes. This may be different, though. There are now so many ways to get the music or information you want - so with the mearket divided so many ways, it's hard to see how commercial radio can remain viable if it's share of the market keeps shrinking.

You're right about new music - it's played less and less, and the (mostly voice-tracked) jocks don't exist on the same planet as the music. They voice a liner or station promo, or some brief gossipy news item a few times an hour, but rarely mention the music or the artists. When I was young, you not only heard new music first on the radio, but got all your info about the artists from radio and TV. My daughter is fully tuned into new music, but downloads the music from the internet - it's cheap, fast, and easy. She seems to get her information about artists and new music from a combination of blogs, social media (Facebook, etc.) iTunes, and God knows what other sources.

She has no need for radio whatsover.

 

[kirksan]

I gotta figure there will be no place for music radio in a decade.

...


What future traditional radio may have is gonna be the news and/or talk kind. Young people have already migrated to other media for their music.

That's it. My rant for the decade.

I agree wholeheartedly with regard to music on the radio. There's no longer a place for it and we're witnessing the death of an industry. The only question is how long will the corporate stations owners manage to hang on to the valuable spectrum, that will be a predictor of the death of radio in general. I can see a situation where metropolitan areas will be forced to give up their commercial spectrum, or part of it, in favor of digital -- mostly Internet. Of-course, that means the FCC is going to have to grow some balls and stop kowtowing to the corporations, but I agree that music stations are already dead. Hopefully they'll be gone in a decade. Some talk stations could stay around for a while, perhaps in a shrinking spectrum.

I wonder how feasible it would be to reduce the spectrum in areas where wireless Internet is readily available while still allowing that spectrum to be used for terrestrial radio in rural areas. While that may be the best way to use the spectrum, the reality is that corporations will fight tooth and nail to hold on to what they have and delay the inevitable for a few years or maybe even a decade or two. I don't see any of these corporations having the foresight to move to an entirely streaming system; most likely they're going to want something in return for giving up the spectrum that they think they own. I don't believe this is even being discussed at federal levels right now.

 

[recto101]

Like I said in other threads some cars like Toyota, Ford and Tesla already have Dashboard internet. But we will have to wait 8-10 years like DavidEduardo said until it is implemented. Look CC and Pandora already have agreements with Toyota to have a dashboard app on the 2012-2013 Prius. Well competitors like CBS owned (with agreements with Yahoo music and AOL Music) Radio.com, Entercom, Live365, Tunein, Shoutcast, Loudcity, XMSirius are waiting for the results. CC and Allies. But look HD-Radio flopped and AM Stereo flopped and the jury is still out on Satellite radio.
By the Way the KGO 810 TV promo was lame. KGO is basically the San Francisco equivalent of
Merlin Radio in NYC. I hope the KGO AM promo does not land on CBS Owned TV stations KPIX and KBCW.
I know in the NYC Boards that WEMP FM 101.9 had a promo for their all News- Station on CBS O&O WCBS CBS2 and CBS New York slammed on WEMP for Copyright infringement. They argued that the "You give us 22-Minutes and we give you the world" is for CBS O&O WINS. and WEMP used this tagline "You give us 10 minutes."
I know KGO has a similar slogan "Listen to us for 10 Minutes of Non-stop Bay Area news". Its an implication that KCBS puts National news from CBS for the first 10 minutes. KCBS 106.9/740 recently had promos that said "The Only All-News station in the Bay Area".

I gotta figure there will be no place for music radio in a decade. I haven't gotten up on my soapbox in a long time, but it annoys the hell out of me how thousands of radio stations use pre-recorded music as the basis for their programming and except for songwriter royalties they pay squat for it. Not only do they get that programming for free, but they more often than not won't even give any credit to the artists or identify the titles of the songs they play. And worse yet, most stations can't even be bothered to play new music.

What future traditional radio may have is gonna be the news and/or talk kind. Young people have already migrated to other media for their music.

That's it. My rant for the decade.

It's hard to predict the future, of course. TV was supposed to be the death of both radio and theatrical movies, but after some growing pains, both adapted to the changes. This may be different, though. There are now so many ways to get the music or information you want - so with the mearket divided so many ways, it's hard to see how commercial radio can remain viable if it's share of the market keeps shrinking.

You're right about new music - it's played less and less, and the (mostly voice-tracked) jocks don't exist on the same planet as the music. They voice a liner or station promo, or some brief gossipy news item a few times an hour, but rarely mention the music or the artists. When I was young, you not only heard new music first on the radio, but got all your info about the artists from radio and TV. My daughter is fully tuned into new music, but downloads the music from the internet - it's cheap, fast, and easy. She seems to get her information about artists and new music from a combination of blogs, social media (Facebook, etc.) iTunes, and God knows what other sources.

She has no need for radio whatsover.

 

[recto101]

If you think KGO or KKSF sucks in Talk Radio
try listening to News/Talk radio from outside the USA.

http://dzmm.abs-cbnnews.com/

 

[DavidKaye]

I think radio will have a place for some time, at least until wireless Internet access is ubiquitous. You still can't beat radio for talk, news and traffic updates.

Uh, yes you can. Anywhere you have a simple cell phone you can get news and traffic updates. Heck, with my simple flip phone with nearly 10 year old technology I can get accurate bus schedules, traffic, news, and stock quotes. I can bank and trade stocks online.

As for talk? Well, I have friends for that, friends that I see in person, people I play board games with, people I have dinner with, people I work on art projects with. And the talk is way more engaging than listening to what "Joe in Moraga" has to say about things.