KRTH Top 500 Countdown issues

[oldies76]

It's very easy to tell that KRTH's playlist is constantly maintained, songs are rotated in and out. You'll notice that you'll hear a song for a week or so every 16 to 18 hours or so and then it's replaced by another. It gives the illusion of a greater library.

But that's the thing..it is replaced by a song that had already aired recently and you're still stuck with the same 500 songs, just in a different order, so the illusion effect is there. It makes the average listener think that those are the only oldies available anymore, so they repeatedly test well and...boom...the same playlist month after month after month.

What we're hoping is for a library similiar to CBS-FM with more specials and themes and song selections, that's all we're asking.

 

[briancraig]

"What we're hoping is for a library similiar to CBS-FM"

But why would you think what works in New York would necessarily work in L.A.?

 

[davideduardo]

The problems with today's radio are almost too numerous to list. The main problem is that most of today's owners are not actual broadcasters.

Most of today's "owners" are companies with shareholders... but the leaders or founders are nearly all radio people.

Jeff Smulyan of Emmis... near lifetime broadcaster
Cathy Hughes of Radio One... worked for years on air to get her first station in DC.
Dickeys of Cumulus... two generations of radio operators
Fields of Entercom... two generations of radio folks.
Bob Neil of Cox... few are more "radio" than Bob.
Lowry Mays of Clear Channel... turned around a failing FM and then a failing AM in San Antonio in 1975, sons grew up in the business.
Dan Mason of CBS... like Bob Neil, a real radio person.
Jeff Liberman of Entravision... son of Mexican immigrant who bought what was one of America's first Spanish langauge FMs.
Gary Stone of Univision Radio... started as a country DJ in Sinton, Texas and worked his way up.
Raúl Alarcón of SBS... grew up in the business founded by his father, who owned and lost stations in Cuba.

And you can find no more "radio people" than Peter Smyth of Greater Media and Bruce Reese of Bonneville or Ed Christian of Saga.

All these are as radio or more than owners from the 7/7 days like Richard Eaton, Doubleday, Crowell Collier, Storz, McLendon, Rahall, Storer, Metromedia, Nationwide Insurance, ABC, NBC, Don Burden, Rounsaville, Sonderling, etc.

They weren't schooled in radio nor do they have a passion for it.

"Schooling" for radio is mostly on the job experience. All the leaders of today are schooled and long-time broadcasters.

They are companies that bought large numbers of stations when the Communications Act of 1996 opened up the ownership rules allowing them to be bought up like real estate.

They are, for the most part, long-time broadcast companies (Clear Channel existed for 21 years before dereg) that took the chance to grow when the rules were changed.

Research has been relied upon to a numbing degree as well.

It's a shame to have to ask listeners about what they want. Pity so many stations do so much of that...

Research is a tool... like a saw to a carpenter. Only the skilled know how to use their tools well, although any fool can go to Lowes and buy them.

All of this is NOT to say that there aren't real broadcasters working in the business, they're just not in charge in most instances.

No, they are in charge almost all the time.

And I have not mentioned the legion of smaller market groups, with folks like the Ingstads in the upper Midwest in charge of great stations for the most part.

It's very easy to tell that KRTH's playlist is constantly maintained, songs are rotated in and out. You'll notice that you'll hear a song for a week or so every 16 to 18 hours or so and then it's replaced by another.

I looked in MediaBase at various non-Holiday months and weeks and this is not so. The songs played in 7 to 10 day periods is pretty much the same as in 30 day periods. Obviously, there are slow rotating and dayparted songs (both or one of the two) and fillers that only get played occasionally, but the trick is in the vertical and horizontal rotation and moving songs in and out of different rotational categories. It may seem like songs appear and disappear; they just move in and out of your listening window.

It gives the illusion of a greater library.

Really good rotational control as done by Jhani is a skill not often found... and from your comments, we can see that he is a master of that craft. The key is to get songs to come "back" in different wide windows (maybe dayparts or 3 to 4 hour spreads) untill they have been heard in all of the windows once, and then when they come back in a window, they play at different hours. But when you get the library matched to the rules, it's almost magic... it seems like you have thousands of songs, all playing in different and new patterns each time.

The problem is that KRTH and any station for that matter can't be everything to everyone. It's isn't perfect, but it's the best that we've got. Beyond that, I say get an ipod and fill it up, it may be the only way to hear all of the music you desire because today's radio isn't your parent's radio. I wish it were but its not...

Like then, there are stations that are better, and many that are worse. It's been that way always in radio. Which is why there is only one first place.

 

[scooty430]

Here, I'll get you started researching what people think about radio. From a Wired article:

Between the 1920s, when the first stations began to broadcast, and the end of grunge in the 1990s, music played over the radio was arguably the most innovative force in US popular culture. The sound of jazz, country, and rock pulsing from every dashboard in the nation inspired and drove Hollywood, Broadway, Seventh Avenue, literature, television, and practically everything else. But in the past decade, radio changed from a village of small, independent stations to a bastion of the US media oligopoly, content to deliver sterile, cookie-cutter broadcasts. The transition made sense economically, because Big Radio was able to cut costs by consolidating advertising departments and using the same programming across the country. But alienated listeners fled in droves.

Noting radio's declining audiences, recurring low-level payola scandals, horrendous public image, and competition for drive-time ears from iPods, satellite broadcasting, and cell phones, pundits have been gleefully pronouncing the medium's last rites.

Go ahead and look for more like that.

Or is it too hard to look in the mirror?

The problems with today's radio are almost too numerous to list. The main problem is that most of today's owners are not actual broadcasters. They weren't schooled in radio nor do they have a passion for it. They are companies that bought large numbers of stations when the Communications Act of 1996 opened up the ownership rules allowing them to be bought up like real estate. Research has been relied upon to a numbing degree as well. All of this is NOT to say that there aren't real broadcasters working in the business, they're just not in charge in most instances.

I still disagree with you about KRTH. It is a well run, well programmed station. Could they play a larger variety? Perhaps, but they are far and away a better station now than they were before their current program director took over. It's very easy to tell that KRTH's playlist is constantly maintained, songs are rotated in and out. You'll notice that you'll hear a song for a week or so every 16 to 18 hours or so and then it's replaced by another. It gives the illusion of a greater library. The problem is that KRTH and any station for that matter can't be everything to everyone. It's isn't perfect, but it's the best that we've got. Beyond that, I say get an ipod and fill it up, it may be the only way to hear all of the music you desire because today's radio isn't your parent's radio. I wish it were but its not...

Agreed on all points, including K-Earth. I think given the rule of "do not play too many songs" K-Earth does well, and it is certainly professionally run and has a great "sound" and style. Jhani Kaye, despite his nauseating Christmas music, has indeed improved the station. But almost anything would have been an improvement over the 250 song playlist they had when he arrived.

However, K-Earth is basically designed to appeal to a huge swath of super casual listeners who tune in for 15 minutes, or people in offices who are using it essentially as background Muzak. That to me is not good radio.

K-Earth did just fine back in the 80s playing a deep playlist. With another whole decade or two to play with, they could be even more exciting a listen.

The clock is ticking on K-Earth and all "jukebox" style radio stations. The internet is coming to your car. Your station better be compelling if you want people to choose you amongst thousands of choices.

 

[scooty430]

It's very easy to tell that KRTH's playlist is constantly maintained, songs are rotated in and out. You'll notice that you'll hear a song for a week or so every 16 to 18 hours or so and then it's replaced by another. It gives the illusion of a greater library.

But that's the thing..it is replaced by a song that had already aired recently and you're still stuck with the same 500 songs, just in a different order, so the illusion effect is there. It makes the average listener think that those are the only oldies available anymore, so they repeatedly test well and...boom...the same playlist month after month after month.

What we're hoping is for a library similiar to CBS-FM with more specials and themes and song selections, that's all we're asking.

Yup. I am convinced those "tests" really favor familiarity more than how much people want to hear the song. Especially if you only have a few seconds to "rate" the song.

But personally I'd ask for much more than a library similar to CBS-FM. They are still pretty narrow, and they have too much 80s. I'd rather have a library like XM used to have, KRTH used to have, or WLNG currently has.

As for Eduardo's assertion that K-Earth rotates the songs so it seems like "magic," let me tell ya: it ain't workin'. I am still hearing Light My Fire and Brown Eyed Girl over and over, and sometimes at the same exact time of day. (And this is just cruising by on the car presets; I would never DARE to listen to K-Earth for more than a few seconds, unless it's a special weekend.)

As oldies76 says, if you have 500 songs, mixing them around only goes so far.

 

[scooty430]

So true! With an exception of a few that side with what listeners really want and ignore the risks that most stations seem to unwilling to take.

Nearly every rated market station spends lots of money to talk with listeners and find out their likes and dislikes.

Translation: Hicks and guys who also make spare change returning cans and bottles or selling plasma gather at a Holiday Inn "ballroom" and, for a sandwich and fifty bucks, decide which is better: Bennie and the Jets or Rocket Man.

 

[oldies76]

However, K-Earth is basically designed to appeal to a huge swath of super casual listeners who tune in for 15 minutes, or people in offices who are using it essentially as background Muzak. That to me is not good radio.

Accurately said!

K-Earth did just fine back in the 80s playing a deep playlist.

Those were the days for sure.

The clock is ticking on K-Earth and all "jukebox" style radio stations. Your station better be compelling if you want people to choose you amongst thousands of choices.

We're in prime time for stations like KRTH and others to be airing songs from literally 3 or 4 decades worth of music to its target audience of 25-54 and above and not just 500 songs from a span of 30-40 years. The ipod may be your best choice nowadays, but why not on today's radio either?

 

[oldies76]

The key is to get songs to come "back" in different wide windows (maybe dayparts or 3 to 4 hour spreads) untill they have been heard in all of the windows once, and then when they come back in a window, they play at different hours. But when you get the library matched to the rules, it's almost magic... it seems like you have thousands of songs, all playing in different and new patterns each time.

Exactly..Repetition on a daily basis, just at different times, same songs over and over, just in a different order, with a few "lost" common hits mixed in.

The average listener, especially the upper end of the 25-54 demo knows what's missing and would not be "fooled" in believing that thousands of songs aired on KRTH, especially when they hear the same ones over and over.

The illusion trick may fool the younger folks, since they did not grow up with most of these songs and may not know all the popular hits from years past. So these would be the only songs that they are familiar with, since that's what KRTH only plays to begin with. Result: Same songs test over and over and you get a similiar rotation month after month.

 

[davideduardo]

Translation: Hicks and guys who also make spare change returning cans and bottles or selling plasma gather at a Holiday Inn "ballroom" and, for a sandwich and fifty bucks, decide which is better: Bennie and the Jets or Rocket Man.

Those hicks you demean often drive to a project in new cars and they get up to $150 for two hours... more than most people make for a couple of hours work.

For two hours, they have fun making their opinion known, and get a little extra spending money for the effort. But for most, it is the opportunity to "count" that is the biggest motivator.

And this is the same profile as participants in the ratings.

It's also the same profile as folks who go to tests for Proctor & Gamble or any of thousands of providers of goods and services in America who do research on their products, brands, logos, ads, services, etc.

Your attempt to make it seem that radio researches the homeless and the downtrodden is misguided. Saying this, when many here have used or specified their own research and know how useful it is, makes you seem like a Luddite who is against any modern technique for gauging consumer behaviour.

 

[scooty430]

"What we're hoping is for a library similiar to CBS-FM"

But why would you think what works in New York would necessarily work in L.A.?

Why not?

We have the same big restaurants, the same retail stores, the same TV shows, the same automobiles....

 

[scooty430]

[/quote]

We're in prime time for stations like KRTH and others to be airing songs from literally 3 or 4 decades worth of music to its target audience of 25-54 and above and not just 500 songs from a span of 30-40 years. The ipod may be your best choice nowadays, but why not on today's radio either?
[/quote]


I read somewhere (forget where) something along these lines:

For a familiar list of "favorites," radio is going to lose to the ipod or Pandora, every time. It can't compete.

But what radio DOES (or can) offer is a guided selection. A knowledgable, trusted person who says, "Hey, here's a song you might like, or may have forgotten. Here's a little fact about this song you may not have known. Here's a group of song presented in an interesting, novel way you may not have thought of." On that front, it is the ipod that cannot compete.

 

[scooty430]

Translation: Hicks and guys who also make spare change returning cans and bottles or selling plasma gather at a Holiday Inn "ballroom" and, for a sandwich and fifty bucks, decide which is better: Bennie and the Jets or Rocket Man.

Those hicks you demean often drive to a project in new cars and they get up to $150 for two hours... more than most people make for a couple of hours work.

For two hours, they have fun making their opinion known, and get a little extra spending money for the effort. But for most, it is the opportunity to "count" that is the biggest motivator.

And this is the same profile as participants in the ratings.

It's also the same profile as folks who go to tests for Proctor & Gamble or any of thousands of providers of goods and services in America who do research on their products, brands, logos, ads, services, etc.

Your attempt to make it seem that radio researches the homeless and the downtrodden is misguided. Saying this, when many here have used or specified their own research and know how useful it is, makes you seem like a Luddite who is against any modern technique for gauging consumer behaviour.

Maybe they got one of those sketchy subprime loans to buy those new cars......

Here's a little tale for ya: The "research" on Seinfeld, the TV show, said that it was a total dud. Test audiences hated it. Larry David and Seinfeld somehow charmed NBC into sticking with it, at first for just four episodes. Even well into its run, it was not "testing well."

I think you know what ended up happening...

 

[calguy]

The problems with today's radio are almost too numerous to list. The main problem is that most of today's owners are not actual broadcasters.

Most of today's "owners" are companies with shareholders... but the leaders or founders are nearly all radio people.

Jeff Smulyan of Emmis... near lifetime broadcaster
Cathy Hughes of Radio One... worked for years on air to get her first station in DC.
Dickeys of Cumulus... two generations of radio operators
Fields of Entercom... two generations of radio folks.
Bob Neil of Cox... few are more "radio" than Bob.
Lowry Mays of Clear Channel... turned around a failing FM and then a failing AM in San Antonio in 1975, sons grew up in the business.
Dan Mason of CBS... like Bob Neil, a real radio person.
Jeff Liberman of Entravision... son of Mexican immigrant who bought what was one of America's first Spanish langauge FMs.
Gary Stone of Univision Radio... started as a country DJ in Sinton, Texas and worked his way up.
Raúl Alarcón of SBS... grew up in the business founded by his father, who owned and lost stations in Cuba.

And you can find no more "radio people" than Peter Smyth of Greater Media and Bruce Reese of Bonneville or Ed Christian of Saga.

All these are as radio or more than owners from the 7/7 days like Richard Eaton, Doubleday, Crowell Collier, Storz, McLendon, Rahall, Storer, Metromedia, Nationwide Insurance, ABC, NBC, Don Burden, Rounsaville, Sonderling, etc.

They weren't schooled in radio nor do they have a passion for it.

"Schooling" for radio is mostly on the job experience. All the leaders of today are schooled and long-time broadcasters.

They are companies that bought large numbers of stations when the Communications Act of 1996 opened up the ownership rules allowing them to be bought up like real estate.

They are, for the most part, long-time broadcast companies (Clear Channel existed for 21 years before dereg) that took the chance to grow when the rules were changed.

Research has been relied upon to a numbing degree as well.

It's a shame to have to ask listeners about what they want. Pity so many stations do so much of that...

Research is a tool... like a saw to a carpenter. Only the skilled know how to use their tools well, although any fool can go to Lowes and buy them.

All of this is NOT to say that there aren't real broadcasters working in the business, they're just not in charge in most instances.

No, they are in charge almost all the time.

And I have not mentioned the legion of smaller market groups, with folks like the Ingstads in the upper Midwest in charge of great stations for the most part.

It's very easy to tell that KRTH's playlist is constantly maintained, songs are rotated in and out. You'll notice that you'll hear a song for a week or so every 16 to 18 hours or so and then it's replaced by another.

I looked in MediaBase at various non-Holiday months and weeks and this is not so. The songs played in 7 to 10 day periods is pretty much the same as in 30 day periods. Obviously, there are slow rotating and dayparted songs (both or one of the two) and fillers that only get played occasionally, but the trick is in the vertical and horizontal rotation and moving songs in and out of different rotational categories. It may seem like songs appear and disappear; they just move in and out of your listening window.

It gives the illusion of a greater library.

Really good rotational control as done by Jhani is a skill not often found... and from your comments, we can see that he is a master of that craft. The key is to get songs to come "back" in different wide windows (maybe dayparts or 3 to 4 hour spreads) untill they have been heard in all of the windows once, and then when they come back in a window, they play at different hours. But when you get the library matched to the rules, it's almost magic... it seems like you have thousands of songs, all playing in different and new patterns each time.

The problem is that KRTH and any station for that matter can't be everything to everyone. It's isn't perfect, but it's the best that we've got. Beyond that, I say get an ipod and fill it up, it may be the only way to hear all of the music you desire because today's radio isn't your parent's radio. I wish it were but its not...

Like then, there are stations that are better, and many that are worse. It's been that way always in radio. Which is why there is only one first place.

Well David you have your opinions, and they are based on facts, but I tend to disagree on this one. There have always been broadcasters that made bad decisions. You point out many who you believe are broadcasters and gave us a long list of names. I won’t go name by name as it’s just too long a list, but… Lowry took control of a radio station and turned it around. I'll bet back then he turned to real radio people to actually do that turn around. His sons may have been raised in radio, but it doesn’t mean that they could actually program and run a station; they hire others to do that. Fact is Lowry came from the world of finance and when ownership limits were opened up grew their company too quickly, something many non radio companies have done only to fail, and biting off more than they could chew when merging with AM/FM is something they never really recovered from. They've eliminated thousands of jobs and killed countless careers. Bob Neil, not always the most sound decisions either, but he's always taken the conservative approach and has been lucky. Yes, many of the others are broadcasters, but they're not doing very well either. Emmis has had to sell stations to keep their cash flow. Radio One made some poor choices lately, but I give them credit for creating their company early on too much success. I could go on, and you may disagree, but these are things I've learned from reading the trades and listening to people like you for many, many years. My comment about real broadcasters not being in charge has more to do with many in the programming ranks, but that's okay, I still feel that many broadcasters aren't in charge, they've succumbed to sales suits who don't understand radio programming in the least. Many over the years have become too arrogant to see what's wrong with their companies. They keep offering up bad product and killing off the good. Would McDonalds say, gee the Big Mac is our best seller, but we think it's been around too long and costs too much to make so we're going to replace it with two slices of bread and some processed cheese? No, of course not, but radio discards its product every day.
The problem as I see it is a convergence of factors. Technology, greed and ego. Technology has allowed many changes and made it much easier to automate. Greed had given operators the impetus to make really poor decisions all in the name of growing their companies into larger entities and ego drives them to try and keep up with owners like Clear Channel. You see it everyday. CC does something and all of the others follow like sheep. Want a great example, look what happened to the ABC stations. Talk about biting off more than you can chew all so one of Mel’s old underlings could try and be like his mentor.
Now I’m sure you’ll come back in a reasoned manner and blow all of my points away with facts and figures, but this is my take on it. I’m not management, just an every day Joe who’s been doing radio since I was a teenager. Someone who sees it from the trenches, not the ivory tower and I’ve seen the devastation first hand… Okay, you can rip me now…

 

[TheBigA]

"What we're hoping is for a library similiar to CBS-FM"

But why would you think what works in New York would necessarily work in L.A.?

Why not?

We have the same big restaurants, the same retail stores, the same TV shows, the same automobiles....

Same palm trees, same beaches, same weather. Yep...just the same.

 

[oldies76]

But what radio DOES (or can) offer is a guided selection. A knowledgable, trusted person who says, "Hey, here's a song you might like, or may have forgotten. Here's a little fact about this song you may not have known. Here's a group of song presented in an interesting, novel way you may not have thought of." On that front, it is the ipod that cannot compete.

This is so true on most specials. Definately, the ipod is your alternative, but not the replacement to radio. Radio just needs to step it up a few notches. The 25-54 expect more, not less. People tune out redundancy.

 

[TheBigA]

The 25-54 expect more, not less. People tune out redundancy.

That may be how YOU feel, but it simply isn't representative of the demo.

 

[oldies76]

That may be how YOU feel, but it simply isn't representative of the demo.

Sure, the .001% of the population that can participate in tests for that station, what about the other 99.99%? If they never have a say in it, how can the majority of that sample give you guys feedback on their opinions on music selections.

If it rained 12 days straight in L.A. wouldn't you be complaining and wishing for a change? Same goes for music. How many times can one hear "My Girl" daily and every day?

 

[TheBigA]

How many times can one hear "My Girl" daily and every day?

I heard it four times a day every day when it was a hit, and I never tired of it. I still haven't. Every time I hear the bass riff, I become a child again. Some people pay lots of money to get that feeling. I just listen to a song.

 

[davideduardo]

Sure, the .001% of the population that can participate in tests for that station, what about the other 99.99%? If they never have a say in it, how can the majority of that sample give you guys feedback on their opinions on music selections.

I told you this before, and it is a principle of polling that is invloved here. If you do the test over with different people, and get the same results, and do it again, and get the same results, you have used replication to prove that the sample is large enough to faithfully represent "everyone" (called the "universe") and no greater sample is needed. In fact, in most cases, even 100 people is more than enough, but we overrecruit just in case a perfect balence of subsets does not show up.

Sampling is used in every aspect of American business and even politics and government. Much of the US Census data is done by a sample (the long form) and not a census, in fact.

If 80 people give you data that is sufficiently accurate for knowing how to play a station music, and we add a 20% to 25% safety margin on top of that, why would we want to increase the sample if doing so yields no new, different or vastly more accurate data?

You keep bringing up the sample size issue, and I keep answering, yet you don't seem to understand. What is it about samples and testing via replecation studies that you don't understand, and I will point you to writings by some of the experts in polling. However, if formulae with Greek letters in them bother you, that may be overkill.

 

[oldies76]

You keep bringing up the sample size issue, and I keep answering, yet you don't seem to understand. What is it about samples and testing via replecation studies that you don't understand, and I will point you to writings by some of the experts in polling. However, if formulae with Greek letters in them bother you, that may be overkill.

I understand this, just trying to digest it, and somehow make some sense of it.