LA PPM RATINGS RELEASED AUGUST 2009

[oldiesfan6479]

Michael, welcome to the shoe-throwing contest. <grin>

 

[scooty430]

Yes there is always a "but" or "except" and I hear you, but I think what you're asking for is just not going to happen. You may as well be asking for peace in the Middle East. I still hear more creativity at KRTH than most stations in LA even think about when it comes to promotions and specialty weekends & such. Since Kaye's arrival KRTH has done more of those weekends than I can remember and I thought more than one have been a bit of a stretch. Guess you can keep hoping, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Sometimes you just have to be thankful for what you've got and in this case it's been a vast improvement over what it was...

Agreed, and I've also heard that unlike his predecessor, Kaye is a real professional to work for.

I'm impressed, actually, with how well Kaye has maintained the "sound" of KRTH. His late 70s and 80s adds have been amazingly on-target. It takes a talent to pick and choose just the right tunes that will still sound KRTH-ish. One could actually CBS-FM for sounding a bit unfocused with Madonna next to Chuck Berry.

I do, though, feel he could get that "KRTH sound" with a larger number of songs. In particular, he relies on the same older songs. I think he's better with the 70s and 80s stuff than the 60s - probably because he came from KOST. His approach to 60s seems to be "play the regular faves only." I hope he keep pushing back to the early 60s and late 50s while expanding to the 80s. (What CBS does.)

In the meantime.....Retro 1260. Great old tunes in your car, and in my case, the old Art Deco bakelite AM radio on the mantle that usually is just decorative....

Yes, two decades at KOST would give him enormous knowledge of AC music, but let’s not forget that Kaye was a super successful Top 40 programmer in the 70’s. His KINT 98 owned El Paso for years. So he knows 60’s and 70’s music as well. As I’ve pointed out before, if you’re going to grow a younger demo-audience you have to play more recent music and after the early to mid 80’s that gets tough because Top 40-CHR music started to sound VERY different after that with songs that wouldn’t sound right on KRTH, so you grow with more AC music as it still is music. But then you run the risk of playing all the burned out songs from AC radio as AC is quite repetitive. For my taste I like the real rock & roll from the 50’s and think that KRTH should still play the songs that influenced artists of the 60’s & 70’s and 80’s. Rock’s lineage should still be on display to show its roots…
1260 doesn’t sound bad, perhaps too many standards, but not bad.

Didn't know Kaye did Top 40, though at the time Top 40 didn't have much 50s/60s, so I still think he's stronger with 70s/80s. Maybe he knows 60s from having lived them, though. In any event, it doesn't show in his song choices. He basically sticks with a very small list of My Girls and My Guys.

You are very right about the post-1985, or even post-1980, problem with Oldies. The music changes, splinters, and (arguably) the quality goes down. There is very little material that fits, will appeal to a broad audience, and most importantly that will stand up to years and years of airplay. This is why the "let's move up the oldies to match our demo's youth" approach is not going to work forever. "Safety Dance" and "Flashdance" are probably not going to be able to withstand 40 years of constant airplay like Brown Eyed Girl or Respect. And after that?.... Nirvana? Snoop Doggy Dog? Hanson? Spice Girls? Hootie and the Blowfish? Yikes - what a nightmare.

 

[scooty430]

If I remember correctly, don't most music surveys prove, regardless of your generation, that your music tastes are cemented around the age of 17, what was popular at the time and rarely change?

If so, to reach the very top of the 25-54 salable demo, you should limit many songs older than 1972. Also, technically, you should include songs as recent as 2001- if you really are trying to go full demo.

If KRTH is primarily a 35 to 45 year old demo based station, then most of the music should be even more recent- 70s and 80s music, which somewhat explains why Jack is excelling while KRTH is on a downtrend.

In the 70s, there was a concept known as PMA (Peak Musical Awareness). Basically, it said that the music that matters most to people is usually that which was popular when they were between 16 and 22. Next would be music from when they were 23 to 29, and then music from age 9-15.

If your target is 25-54, the center of that demo is 39 (which is also dead center for 35-44). That person was born in 1970. So their PMA years would be 1986-1992. Then would come 1993-1999 and then 1979-1985.

It's worth remembering that when KRTH launched as an oldies station in 1972, the music was from 1955-1964...in other words, the songs were between 8 and 17 years old at the time. About right for reaching people in their mid to late 30s.

Now (and this applies to a greater or lesser degree to all oldies and classic hits stations), the songs are as old (or older than) the target listener.

As other posters have pointed out, there are more avenues for exposure to the music than ever before (inclusion in movies, ad campaigns, video games). And, as a father of teens, I can tell you that the impact of Guitar Hero and Rock Band in exposing music from before their time can't be underestimated.

Nor can the easy online access to samples of music that you can listen to before you buy. What's AC/DC? Who's David Bowie? Click and listen for 30 seconds. If it sucks, no big deal. If you like it, it's yours for 99 cents.

But...does that mean that 12-34 year olds are likely to listen to 60s or 70s based oldies radio? No. Because of what they'd have to sit through to get to the handful of tracks they enjoy.

Johnny Cash, David Bowie, The Beatles and Pink Floyd all share space on my 18-year old daughter's mp3 player with My Chemical Romance, Muse, Linkin Park, Weezer and Franz Ferdinand. She aces "Free Bird" on Guitar Hero. But would KOOL or KSLX (I'm in Phoenix) ever get a pushbutton on her car radio? Not a chance.

---Michael Hagerty

Very good points, and it's good to hear someone else confirm that kids do in fact grab music from all sorts of eras. Pretty much any old track can be found on Youtube, and every single one of them will have a bunch of people saying something like, "I'm 18 and I think this song is awesome. New music isn't as good." (Probably the real version will be much more profane, but you get the idea.) Heck, I even saw such a comment posted on "Birds and the Bees" from 1965!

So how to get young people to put an oldies station on the presets? Well, it's all about presentation. Somehow JACK (in Los Angeles) was indeed a hip station for kids to listen to - it may still be. Yet the music was almost 90 percent from before they were born. Maybe it's because it wasn't boring (bigger playlist) and it had a new energy.

Anyway, not sure how it all applies to KRTH, but I do think they should realize (and maybe are realizing) that 50s and 60s may not be "the big turnoff" some think it is. If anything, it's a potential asset because the music is so fantastic and timeless. Certainly it's working in NYC.

 

[briancraig]

Scooty is right about one thing, the music being played on KIIS and Amp today will be forgotten 10 years from now. The mid 1980s is really the last era where CHR played any music that will stand the test of time. Obviously, I'm speaking in general terms as every year might produce one or two songs that stand out, but there has never been an era where top 40 music has been so disposable as it is today.

A thought that came to me about WCBS having such a larger playlist than KRTH. Back in the 1960s and early 1970s, KHJ was far more diverse than WABC and played a whole lot more local hits and non Billboard charted records. Drake was far more musically adventurous than Sklar.

I understand that times have changed and L.A. isn't the same place that it was in the Boss Radio days and the above fact is irrelevant to radio today, but as a pop culture/radio/urban anthropology geek, I find that to be interesting.

 

[justpassingthough]

I find it entertaining that a bunch of radio geeks on a message board are determining what is and what is not good music, along with what music will stand the test of time.

If this board was around 20 years ago, I imagine many of the things said about today's artists would have been said about the hits of 1989 that now get play on KBIG, Jack, etc.

Sure, there are 15 year olds out there that are now familiar with the Beatles because of the availability of Rock Band, iPods, and a number of new technologies, but is it a large enough group to justify running a PROFITABLE oldies or classic hits station still focused on 60s music? I think we all know the answer to that question.

 

[briancraig]

What is and is not good music is for the most part subjective. What music is still played on the radio, has strong back catalog sales and is influential years after it comes out is not subjective.

For example the rock music of the late 1960s/early 1970s had far more staying power than say the music of the early 1960s. In other words, you can't deny that the Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Who, Doors etc. had far more of a longer impact on popular culture than Bobby Vee, The Marcels, Gene Pitney, Connie Francis, The Dovells, etc.

Do you honestly think anyone 35 years from now is going to care about Jay-Z, Rihanna or Kanye West? We have been through periods of disposable trash music before and it just so happens that this is one of those eras. Yes, there will always be someone nostalgic about everything.

There may be a few people who want to hear U Can't Touch This, Ice Ice Baby, Girl You Know It's True and Hangin' Tough, but the top 40 from 1989-90 (another disposable era) has virtually no legs today.

 

[michael hagerty]

I find it entertaining that a bunch of radio geeks on a message board are determining what is and what is not good music, along with what music will stand the test of time.

If this board was around 20 years ago, I imagine many of the things said about today's artists would have been said about the hits of 1989 that now get play on KBIG, Jack, etc.

Sure, there are 15 year olds out there that are now familiar with the Beatles because of the availability of Rock Band, iPods, and a number of new technologies, but is it a large enough group to justify running a PROFITABLE oldies or classic hits station still focused on 60s music? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Right. The last line of my post is the key. Would my daughter ever give an oldies or classic hits station a pushbutton? Not a chance.

Presentation won't make a difference, either. To this generation, a disc jockey, promos, jingles and songs you don't like is an unnatural way to listen to music (much like edited for time and content with 14 minutes of commercials per hour on broadcast TV is an unnatural way to watch a movie). And you know what? Maybe it always was. But a generation, now older than advertisers care about, found it entertaining for a time.

As for the value or staying power of music today...that will be determined entirely by the memories of the generation who heard them as hits. We (those of us who aren't 12-34 at the moment) have no say and no way of predicting.

There are several 80s songs that I always thought were great...from hearing them on the radio. People five to ten years younger than me, whose primary exposure to the same songs was from MTV, have a completely different attitude toward them because they will forever associate them with the video.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[oldies76]

What music is still played on the radio, has strong back Do you honestly think anyone 35 years from now is going to care about Jay-Z, Rihanna or Kanye West? We have been through periods of disposable trash music before and it just so happens that this is one of those eras. Yes, there will always be someone nostalgic about everything.

There may be a few people who want to hear U Can't Touch This, Ice Ice Baby, Girl You Know It's True and Hangin' Tough, but the top 40 from 1989-90 (another disposable era) has virtually no legs today.

Yeah and we can see in 35 years, people going through "music tests" to test their "oldies" and reject a vast majority of them, since this era (late 80's thru parts of the 00's) is considered disposable. Even today's music could fit this category. 50 Cent, Black-Eyed Peas, Lady Gaga, Rhianna, Flo-rida...etc....Seriously??

I could just imagine what oldies radio will sound like in 2040 (if there is still radio).

Oldies and hits from the past have stood the test, since they have the true rock and roll sound in them, but recent hits?

 

[michael hagerty]

There is very little material that fits, will appeal to a broad audience, and most importantly that will stand up to years and years of airplay. This is why the "let's move up the oldies to match our demo's youth" approach is not going to work forever. "Safety Dance" and "Flashdance" are probably not going to be able to withstand 40 years of constant airplay like Brown Eyed Girl or Respect. And after that?.... Nirvana? Snoop Doggy Dog? Hanson? Spice Girls? Hootie and the Blowfish? Yikes - what a nightmare.

But, Scooty, the problem is that 40 yeas of constant airplay is an anomaly. There weren't stations in 1969 playing nothing but the hits of the mid-20s through mid-30s.

By 1979, yes...mid-30s to mid-40s music was a format...The Music of Your Life...but it wasn't aimed at vital adults aged 25-54. The format that was aimed at and delivering that demo (adult contemporary pre-Jhani Kaye's KOST) was playing currents by Steely Dan, The Bee Gees, The Doobie Brothers, and oldies from 1964-1978.

Ideally, oldies targeted at 25-54 year olds is a living, breathing format. It has survived despite getting locked in a time warp because of the sheer number of baby boomers and the length of the boom (1946-1964). But even the youngest boomers turn 45 this year...six years older than the midpoint of the demo. And their point of musical reference is the 80s, not the 60s. KRTH sounding like Drake-era KHJ is irrelevant because they never heard it or were 9 or younger when they did. In their teens and early 20s, they were listening to KROQ. That's probably where oldies material should be coming from right now...80s new wave/alternative and post-1983 CHR. And it would still skew slightly old within 25-54.

Ultimately, it has to move with the generations...and in a healthy environment that delivers the desired demos to advertisers, the songs don't have to stand up for 40 years...15 to 20 would do just fine.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[surfdude]

Sonically, Rock and R&B music from the 60s and 70s is not THAT much different than the stuff today.
Music from the 60s to today is ALL part of the ROCK & ROLL ERA. That can't be said for music from
the 30, 40s, early 50s.

The Doors play nicely with Pearl Jam. Chic can play well with Beyonce.

Somebody with great skill needs to design an Oldies format for 35-54 year olds.
It ain't KRTH or WCBS-FM. Jack is close (especially for LA), but not quite, in most markets.

 

[LKellerIII]

Sonically, Rock and R&B music from the 60s and 70s is not THAT much different than the stuff today.
Music from the 60s to today is ALL part of the ROCK & ROLL ERA. That can't be said for music from
the 30, 40s, early 50s.

Good point. The Bay Area's "Kiss-FM" (KISQ) is Clear Channel's"Old School" station here that primarily plays 60s and 70s soul and Motown, but is increasingly mixing in non-rap R&B hits of the 80s, 90s, and even current soul (or whatever its called now). LA probably has an equivalent station, but I'm not sure what it would be. The effect is not jarring at all, and all the music fits well together. Even though I'm a baby-boomer, I find that I tune out if they're playing "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" for the 45,278th time, but keep listening if its something recent or new that hasn't been played to death.

The station has had the same basic format for over a decade now (more new songs lately), and is respectably mid-pack in the 12+ ratings...not sure about 25-54.

I was in LA and Palm Springs recently for a few days. K-Earth still sounds good to me, possibly because the Bay Area no longer has a Classic Hits station (on HD1).

I noticed that KDES also sounded good, and they have added a fair number of 80s songs - more than KRTH. I thought that was interesting, given that Palm Springs has a lot of retirees, and you'd think the average age there would call for a traditional Oldies or Classic Hits station. They also have Russ O'Hara (ex KRLA, KKDJ, etc.) and an entertaining mid-day guy named Bob O'Brien. Good small market station.

 

[jonbruce]

Bob O'Brien is a former major market jock who was in Washington DC, Miami and Riverside. We moved to the 80's to lower the demographics out of 55+ to get agency buys.

 

[OCradiodude]

But it doesn't explain why CBS-FM, playing 50s-80s, is doing well. So much for that idea.

Thinking "just play music from the time people were 17" is a nice, simple, clean theory. Sure makes one's job easy. Just keep "moving the music forward, and you're done!"

But it's outdated thinking. Today's kids and young adults like everything from Kanye West to Third Eye Blind to Led Zeppelin to Sinatra. It's about the music's quality, not just the year it was made. Which is why millions of people under 30 are pretending to be Paul McCartney on bass this week after buying Rock Band.

I've been more or less silent on this topic, scooty430. I'm not sure why you persist in comparing WCBS-FM with KRTH or JACK. Comparing a market like New York to Los Angeles is like comparing apples to oranges.
KRTH is not WCBS and WCBS is not KRTH and shouldn't be.

From a demographics standpoint, it's quite surprising that oldies/classic hits is still being played in markets across the country. The music keeps staying around. That's not to say that I hate music of that time. I'm quite fond of it actually. The truth is that money just won't come to certain formats now as they used to in the past.

Michael Hagerty probably has the right idea.

 

[oldies76]

From a demographics standpoint, it's quite surprising that oldies/classic hits is still being played in markets across the country. The music keeps staying around.

Why would you be surprised, especially classic hits? What would you expect to hear then on the radio, if oldies / classic hits weren't being played across the country?

The music is staying around for one big reason...it's timeless. As mentioned in earlier posts, even some youth are attracted to some older songs. If teens listen to currents, then who would we expect the upper end of the 25-54 and 55+ to tune in to? Lots of people like that early rock and roll sound, they like the classic dance tunes, they like classic rock and they like classic motown. What else could they listen to? This is their music, their era.

 

[davideduardo]

Why would you be surprised, especially classic hits? What would you expect to hear then on the radio, if oldies / classic hits weren't being played across the country?

Why is it unusual to anyone that a particular age frouping of people whould like the songs that were the hits when they were teens and young adults?

The music is staying around for one big reason...it's timeless.

It's not timeless. Perhaps a few songs will become standards, but 99% will die with the generation that was raised on them.

As mentioned in earlier posts, even some youth are attracted to some older songs.

That is known as a statistical aberration or a number outside of range. What statistics does with these aberattons is delete them as they are meaningless. So meaningless, in fact, that paying attention to them endangers the analysis of the rest of the data.

Lots of people like that early rock and roll sound, they like the classic dance tunes, they like classic rock and they like classic motown. What else could they listen to? This is their music, their era.

Just like, 20 years from now, "oldies" will mean Backstreet Boys to Pink...

 

[davideduardo]

... but is increasingly mixing in non-rap R&B hits of the 80s, 90s, and even current soul (or whatever its called now).

R&B. That includes the slow jams, too.

LA probably has an equivalent station, but I'm not sure what it would be.

Hot 92.3, although Hot has more Hispanic influence.
[/quote]

I thought that was interesting, given that Palm Springs has a lot of retirees, and you'd think the average age there would call for a traditional Oldies or Classic Hits station.

Like any other place, advertisers are not thrilled with retirees as a core. The talk, country and AC stations do a good job of reaching them, plus they have th elower demos, too.

Good small market station.

The Coachella Valley, with a half million people, is not really a small market any more.

 

[scooty430]

I find it entertaining that a bunch of radio geeks on a message board are determining what is and what is not good music, along with what music will stand the test of time.

If this board was around 20 years ago, I imagine many of the things said about today's artists would have been said about the hits of 1989 that now get play on KBIG, Jack, etc.

Sure, there are 15 year olds out there that are now familiar with the Beatles because of the availability of Rock Band, iPods, and a number of new technologies, but is it a large enough group to justify running a PROFITABLE oldies or classic hits station still focused on 60s music? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Perhaps you chose an arbitrary year, but 1989 is certainly not remembered by anyone as a great year for music. I think there is a fairy strong feeling among most people that the last half of the 80s, were a real low point.

The 90s saw grunge, techno, a swing revival, a ska revival, a punk revival, numetal, rap, and electronica, but these were all pretty polarizing niche forms without mass appeal.

So the point is that "pushing the music forward" is going to hit a dead-end for oldies stations. Even JACK only sprinkles in things that are past the mid-80s.

 

[scooty430]

There is very little material that fits, will appeal to a broad audience, and most importantly that will stand up to years and years of airplay. This is why the "let's move up the oldies to match our demo's youth" approach is not going to work forever. "Safety Dance" and "Flashdance" are probably not going to be able to withstand 40 years of constant airplay like Brown Eyed Girl or Respect. And after that?.... Nirvana? Snoop Doggy Dog? Hanson? Spice Girls? Hootie and the Blowfish? Yikes - what a nightmare.

But, Scooty, the problem is that 40 yeas of constant airplay is an anomaly. There weren't stations in 1969 playing nothing but the hits of the mid-20s through mid-30s.

By 1979, yes...mid-30s to mid-40s music was a format...The Music of Your Life...but it wasn't aimed at vital adults aged 25-54. The format that was aimed at and delivering that demo (adult contemporary pre-Jhani Kaye's KOST) was playing currents by Steely Dan, The Bee Gees, The Doobie Brothers, and oldies from 1964-1978.

Ideally, oldies targeted at 25-54 year olds is a living, breathing format. It has survived despite getting locked in a time warp because of the sheer number of baby boomers and the length of the boom (1946-1964). But even the youngest boomers turn 45 this year...six years older than the midpoint of the demo. And their point of musical reference is the 80s, not the 60s. KRTH sounding like Drake-era KHJ is irrelevant because they never heard it or were 9 or younger when they did. In their teens and early 20s, they were listening to KROQ. That's probably where oldies material should be coming from right now...80s new wave/alternative and post-1983 CHR. And it would still skew slightly old within 25-54.

Ultimately, it has to move with the generations...and in a healthy environment that delivers the desired demos to advertisers, the songs don't have to stand up for 40 years...15 to 20 would do just fine.

---Michael Hagerty

Maybe you are right. But I wonder if even the person who is 19 years old today is going to want to hear today's music when he or she is 35.

You make a point that the people who grew up with KHJ are really old now - true. But the person who grew up in the 90s DID hear K-Earth. Their parents and grandparents were listening to it, and they were certainly exposed to it in the car, maybe at home. Their parents may also have played those records and CDs too. So while they may (or may not) have complained at the time, perhaps now that THEY are becoming boring old farts, they might have a new appreciation for this older music, especially because it is so good.

 

[scooty430]

Sonically, Rock and R&B music from the 60s and 70s is not THAT much different than the stuff today.
Music from the 60s to today is ALL part of the ROCK & ROLL ERA. That can't be said for music from
the 30, 40s, early 50s.

The Doors play nicely with Pearl Jam. Chic can play well with Beyonce.

Somebody with great skill needs to design an Oldies format for 35-54 year olds.
It ain't KRTH or WCBS-FM. Jack is close (especially for LA), but not quite, in most markets.

I think we became so used to music "going together" during the 80s and 90s, that we forgot that Top 40 radio was wall to wall "train wrecks" way back when. Even into the 70s, you'd get a "You Light Up My Life" followed by "Stairway to Heaven" followed by "Pick Up the Pieces." So having mixed up playlists is probably not the issue so much. Indeed, most people's ipods are pretty chaotic.

It's a bigger issue: people under 30 don't see the radio as the place to enjoy music. Itunes, Pandora, Youtube, etc. offer interactivity, instant satisfaction, community, and they are of course free. Radio, on the other hand, is static, passive, and requires trusting an authority to choose your content. Totally alien to young people.

 

[scooty430]

But it doesn't explain why CBS-FM, playing 50s-80s, is doing well. So much for that idea.

Thinking "just play music from the time people were 17" is a nice, simple, clean theory. Sure makes one's job easy. Just keep "moving the music forward, and you're done!"

But it's outdated thinking. Today's kids and young adults like everything from Kanye West to Third Eye Blind to Led Zeppelin to Sinatra. It's about the music's quality, not just the year it was made. Which is why millions of people under 30 are pretending to be Paul McCartney on bass this week after buying Rock Band.

I've been more or less silent on this topic, scooty430. I'm not sure why you persist in comparing WCBS-FM with KRTH or JACK. Comparing a market like New York to Los Angeles is like comparing apples to oranges.
KRTH is not WCBS and WCBS is not KRTH and shouldn't be.

From a demographics standpoint, it's quite surprising that oldies/classic hits is still being played in markets across the country. The music keeps staying around. That's not to say that I hate music of that time. I'm quite fond of it actually. The truth is that money just won't come to certain formats now as they used to in the past.

Michael Hagerty probably has the right idea.

I compare CBS-FM to KRTH simply because I think it shows you CAN play 50s-80s with a deep playlist and great specials, and I really wish KRTH would do so. I think the differences between the cities are there, but not really as relevant as many of you think.