I just looked at the weekend results 25-54 for KRTH ... August was their worst month share and wise of 2009 on the weekend. What hurt them most was a decline in TSL
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LA PPM RATINGS RELEASED AUGUST 2009
- Thread starter pjc1961
- Start date
scooty430 said:
Yes there is always a "but" or "except" and I hear you, but I think what you're asking for is just not going to happen. You may as well be asking for peace in the Middle East. I still hear more creativity at KRTH than most stations in LA even think about when it comes to promotions and specialty weekends & such. Since Kaye's arrival KRTH has done more of those weekends than I can remember and I thought more than one have been a bit of a stretch. Guess you can keep hoping, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Sometimes you just have to be thankful for what you've got and in this case it's been a vast improvement over what it was...
If I remember correctly, don't most music surveys prove, regardless of your generation, that your music tastes are cemented around the age of 17, what was popular at the time and rarely change?
If so, to reach the very top of the 25-54 salable demo, you should limit many songs older than 1972. Also, technically, you should include songs as recent as 2001- if you really are trying to go full demo.
If KRTH is primarily a 35 to 45 year old demo based station, then most of the music should be even more recent- 70s and 80s music, which somewhat explains why Jack is excelling while KRTH is on a downtrend.
If so, to reach the very top of the 25-54 salable demo, you should limit many songs older than 1972. Also, technically, you should include songs as recent as 2001- if you really are trying to go full demo.
If KRTH is primarily a 35 to 45 year old demo based station, then most of the music should be even more recent- 70s and 80s music, which somewhat explains why Jack is excelling while KRTH is on a downtrend.
justpassingthough said:
The age most studies of music imprinting (development of preference for music styles and types) starts in early adolescence, irrespective of culture. But your point is well taken in that there is an age cap on the music you can play to reach the desirable age groups.
Certainly, with "gold" being played on top 40 stations in the 60's, a teen in those years wouldhave been exposed to a quantity of older songs, and might like some of them... so a hard wall is not in order, but a very tight restriction is.
And, Jack is certainly dominating 25-54 now, leaving KRTH and the Beach Boys way behind.
justpassingthough said:
DavidEduardo said:
I don't have access to the "demo" ratings, but I do notice that after one gets past KIIS in the 12+, many of the stations are separated by very little difference.
So is there really a big difference between #5 and #10? With the tiny sample size of PPM, it could be just two or three actual humans determining the difference between slot #5 and slot #10.
calguy said:
Agreed, and I've also heard that unlike his predecessor, Kaye is a real professional to work for.
I'm impressed, actually, with how well Kaye has maintained the "sound" of KRTH. His late 70s and 80s adds have been amazingly on-target. It takes a talent to pick and choose just the right tunes that will still sound KRTH-ish. One could actually CBS-FM for sounding a bit unfocused with Madonna next to Chuck Berry.
I do, though, feel he could get that "KRTH sound" with a larger number of songs. In particular, he relies on the same older songs. I think he's better with the 70s and 80s stuff than the 60s - probably because he came from KOST. His approach to 60s seems to be "play the regular faves only." I hope he keep pushing back to the early 60s and late 50s while expanding to the 80s. (What CBS does.)
In the meantime.....Retro 1260. Great old tunes in your car, and in my case, the old Art Deco bakelite AM radio on the mantle that usually is just decorative....
justpassingthough said:
If you already OWN Jack, which CBS does, then it makes more sense to go ahead and let that be the 80s station, and let KROQ do a slightly younger demo. KRTH has value as a heritage oldies station, and it makes more sense to milk whatever you can out of that before flushing it. Once you blow the station up, you're really at risk of being.....nothing.
If I owned it, I'd try, not to turn it into a 70s/80s station (too much competition), but accept an older demo and at the same time try to turn on younger people to the amazing music of the 50s-70s. It truly is better music. Heck, there's probably more 15 year old Beatles fans now than ever before. I'd also look for people who want to sell things to families, older people.... Think outside of the box. There are plenty of Viagra pills, life insurance policies, Geritol bottles, and Preparation H tubes to be sold.... And if you're KRTH, you've cornered the oldies market.
scooty430 said:
Every table is a "demo" including 12+ or 6+. The difference is that the adult demos are of value, and not given away like the 12+ and 6+ numbers. In 25-54, the #1 is Jack, and the separation from KRTH is about 2 full points...
KRTH was early this year... I think it was in February, with around a 5 share... they are now in the 3.5 range. That is way more than a couple of meters.
And, by the way, there are over 3000 meters in LA. For KRTH to have consistently cumed around 2.5 million in 12+, there were around 700 meters that registered one quarter hour or more for that station... a very great difference from "two or three actual humans."
What happened is that KRTH did not lose cume, its listeners listen less than they used to, which is a sign of dissatisfaction.
scooty430 said:
There is competition because that is where the ad money is.
There is no ad money for over 55.
It's not going to happen save in rare cases. There is a ton of good contemporary music that is better recorded and has lyrics that speak to today. Akon, Pink, Black Eyed Peas, etc., etc. have absolutely terrific music out... hey, even Lady GaGa has good tunes.
Every generation says the same thing about their music. I knew family members who said that Doris Day and Gogi Grant and the Big Bands were better than Danny and the Juniors and Frankie Ford.
Yeah, right.
LA is what is called a "transactional" market because, for the major stations, agency business is two thirds to 80% of billing... and agencies buy by the numbers and they don't buy over 55.
Have you noticed the disclaimers and cautions? They roll them on the screen on TV, and it takes a quarter page in magazines. They can't use radio, and nearly no prescription drug can for this reason.
Also subject to legal notices except for auto insusrance. Life insurance is not generally bought by over-55's as it is too expensive to buy at that point.
I have not seen Geritol widely promoted since the FDA investigations of the 70's....
DavidEduardo said:
Here is my short theory:
KRTH introduced a whole bunch of fairly exciting late 70s tunes a couple years back. Night Fever, I Wish, Don't Stop Till You Get Enough, Brother Louie, Dancing Queen, I Can't Go For That.... The station sounded pretty fresh, and those tunes were not getting airplay elsewhere.
Now it's a couple years later. Those songs are getting stale, and some are being played on KOST or whatnot. Things are getting boring again, like the 60s did under Jay Coffey.
To make matters worse, the 60s stuff is even more burned out. How many times can you stand Light My Fire, Think, Brown Eyed Girl, and Baby Love.
They need to mix it up with different songs from lots of eras, the way CBS-FM, the more successful station, is doing. Boredom is the #1 problem.
There is a ton of good contemporary music that is better recorded and has lyrics that speak to today. Akon, Pink, Black Eyed Peas, etc., etc. have absolutely terrific music out... hey, even Lady GaGa has good tunes.
Time will tell, but IMO this music is pretty bad. 50s-70s blows it away.
There IS plenty of good music out there - Radiohead, White Stripes, Wolfmother, Iron and Wine, Calexico...one could list many - but it's very niched.
The top 40 shlock you cite, however, is corporate garbage that will be laughed at by future generations.
Think Milli Vanilli and MC Hammer. That's what crap like Black Eyed Peas "My Humps" and Pink's "Get the Party Started" will look like in a decade.
"Hey Jude" it ain't...
Time will tell, but IMO this music is pretty bad. 50s-70s blows it away.
There IS plenty of good music out there - Radiohead, White Stripes, Wolfmother, Iron and Wine, Calexico...one could list many - but it's very niched.
The top 40 shlock you cite, however, is corporate garbage that will be laughed at by future generations.
Think Milli Vanilli and MC Hammer. That's what crap like Black Eyed Peas "My Humps" and Pink's "Get the Party Started" will look like in a decade.
"Hey Jude" it ain't...
And, by the way, there are over 3000 meters in LA. For KRTH to have consistently cumed around 2.5 million in 12+, there were around 700 meters that registered one quarter hour or more for that station... a very great difference from "two or three actual humans."
Not sure where you got the 3000 number.
Let's assume a few hundred of those are on vacation / not using the meters properly / forgetting to wear meters.
Then, how many of them tuned in KRTH enough to register on the cume, but aren't really regular listeners? Subtract them.
Now, how many of those remaining are in the demo you're talking about? The "money demo?"
It's definitely not 700 anymore. 300? 200? 100? And now you see how a few people can have a big impact. Indeed, ONE GUY in another market who was busted for faking his PPM changed the ratings in a major way, as you probably heard.
Many people in the industry are questioning PPM, and you know it. Mostly around sample size.
Not sure where you got the 3000 number.
Let's assume a few hundred of those are on vacation / not using the meters properly / forgetting to wear meters.
Then, how many of them tuned in KRTH enough to register on the cume, but aren't really regular listeners? Subtract them.
Now, how many of those remaining are in the demo you're talking about? The "money demo?"
It's definitely not 700 anymore. 300? 200? 100? And now you see how a few people can have a big impact. Indeed, ONE GUY in another market who was busted for faking his PPM changed the ratings in a major way, as you probably heard.
Many people in the industry are questioning PPM, and you know it. Mostly around sample size.
justpassingthough said:
But it doesn't explain why CBS-FM, playing 50s-80s, is doing well. So much for that idea.
Thinking "just play music from the time people were 17" is a nice, simple, clean theory. Sure makes one's job easy. Just keep "moving the music forward, and you're done!"
But it's outdated thinking. Today's kids and young adults like everything from Kanye West to Third Eye Blind to Led Zeppelin to Sinatra. It's about the music's quality, not just the year it was made. Which is why millions of people under 30 are pretending to be Paul McCartney on bass this week after buying Rock Band.
scooty430 said:
From Arbitron. Actually, there are a little over 3500 meters in LA, and recent surveys have had around 3,400 persons in the sample (valid carriers)
Let's say that every person gets two week's vacation. That would mean that 4% of the population is on vacation at any one time. And many people use vacation time for things like personal matters, home construction projects, etc.
Yes, there are people who don't carry the meter every day. They are in the weekly in-tab, but not the daily in-tab. If they fail consistently, they are removed from the panel and replaced.
On an average day, 2600 meters were "in tab" meaning they registered movement, which qualifies them. Each meter has a motion sensor, by the way.
It does not matter if they are regular. The fact that KRTH has had nearly the smae cume since the PPM started shows that around 700 meters report it each week.
Oh, when KRTH was #3 in 25-54, about 450 of the meters were in that demo.
People are not "busted" and you can not fake the PPM behaviour. It records what it hears. There have been only a half dozen irregularities reported, and three of them were reported by me.
No, it is not "mostly about sample size." Sample size was determined based on how much the subscribers wanted to pay. If the stations in any market want larger sample, Arbitron would be pleased to increase it, just as they did in diary markets.
That point, like all the ones above it, is just wrong.
The issues with the PPM have to do with the fact that only two markets have MRC accreditation. It's about methodology and proportionality in certain cells, not sample.
scooty430 said:
Hey, I know some young kids (pre-teen) that like Johnny Cash and classic rock. And does KRTH play Johnny Cash? of course not. Not all pre 25 demo dislike oldies or cl. hits. Some youth find this refuge of music to be somewhat attractive, as compared to some of the junk that's out these days. You've got Beatles Rockband, as some proof of this, aimed at the young crowd. Imagine if some of these oldies that kids like were heard on that medium, otherwise known as a.... R A D I O. Might be interesting, wouldn't it?
scooty430 said:
Yes, two decades at KOST would give him enormous knowledge of AC music, but let’s not forget that Kaye was a super successful Top 40 programmer in the 70’s. His KINT 98 owned El Paso for years. So he knows 60’s and 70’s music as well. As I’ve pointed out before, if you’re going to grow a younger demo-audience you have to play more recent music and after the early to mid 80’s that gets tough because Top 40-CHR music started to sound VERY different after that with songs that wouldn’t sound right on KRTH, so you grow with more AC music as it still is music. But then you run the risk of playing all the burned out songs from AC radio as AC is quite repetitive. For my taste I like the real rock & roll from the 50’s and think that KRTH should still play the songs that influenced artists of the 60’s & 70’s and 80’s. Rock’s lineage should still be on display to show its roots…
1260 doesn’t sound bad, perhaps too many standards, but not bad.
justpassingthough said:
In the 70s, there was a concept known as PMA (Peak Musical Awareness). Basically, it said that the music that matters most to people is usually that which was popular when they were between 16 and 22. Next would be music from when they were 23 to 29, and then music from age 9-15.
If your target is 25-54, the center of that demo is 39 (which is also dead center for 35-44). That person was born in 1970. So their PMA years would be 1986-1992. Then would come 1993-1999 and then 1979-1985.
It's worth remembering that when KRTH launched as an oldies station in 1972, the music was from 1955-1964...in other words, the songs were between 8 and 17 years old at the time. About right for reaching people in their mid to late 30s.
Now (and this applies to a greater or lesser degree to all oldies and classic hits stations), the songs are as old (or older than) the target listener.
As other posters have pointed out, there are more avenues for exposure to the music than ever before (inclusion in movies, ad campaigns, video games). And, as a father of teens, I can tell you that the impact of Guitar Hero and Rock Band in exposing music from before their time can't be underestimated.
Nor can the easy online access to samples of music that you can listen to before you buy. What's AC/DC? Who's David Bowie? Click and listen for 30 seconds. If it sucks, no big deal. If you like it, it's yours for 99 cents.
But...does that mean that 12-34 year olds are likely to listen to 60s or 70s based oldies radio? No. Because of what they'd have to sit through to get to the handful of tracks they enjoy.
Johnny Cash, David Bowie, The Beatles and Pink Floyd all share space on my 18-year old daughter's mp3 player with My Chemical Romance, Muse, Linkin Park, Weezer and Franz Ferdinand. She aces "Free Bird" on Guitar Hero. But would KOOL or KSLX (I'm in Phoenix) ever get a pushbutton on her car radio? Not a chance.
---Michael Hagerty
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