LA PPM RATINGS RELEASED AUGUST 2009

[davideduardo]

KRTH was performing very very well, until they decided to add the pre-65 stuff into the daily mix.

This is B.S. until you prove it with a playlist.

MediaBase reports are copyright. Even if I violated our agreement, the board editor would nuke the post faster than Amp turns over the hits.

Several other posters have already noted the inclusion of pre-65 stuff resulted in very severe declines in 25-54 rank.

 

[davideduardo]

And they'd bill even more if they had the ratings CBS-FM does. Maybe they should mirror their approach....

They were doing just as well as CBS-FM, maybe better given the larger number of FMs in LA, until they began losing the 25-54s due to playing music for 55+ listeners.

 

[radioresearcher]

And they'd bill even more if they had the ratings CBS-FM does. Maybe they should mirror their approach....

They were doing just as well as CBS-FM, maybe better given the larger number of FMs in LA, until they began losing the 25-54s due to playing music for 55+ listeners.

Put JACK back on in New York and watch how fast WCBS-FM goes down.

WCBS-FM also skews younger than KRTH.

I agree with David that the older music on KRTH isn't helping them. BTW, I heard the Motels today.

 

[oldies76]

What I hate is stubborn people who insist that:

1. ...consulting your programming with real listeners is somehow wrong.

Never said that. Where did you get this from??

2. ...the songs they like are liked by everyone.

Everyone has their preferences, including "Tequilla", which by the way IS in rotation, last I checked. A song that tests well and is not liked by you...proves my point very well that everyone has their tastes. Untested songs are liked by many, tested songs are disliked by many and vice-versa.

3. ...if a song was once a "hit" no matter how dubiously, it should be played today.

CBS-FM does this already, so what's your point??

4. ...listeners who hate certain songs will not tune out if they hear songs they despise.

Not necessarily, they'll just wait for their favorites to play. Not every song aired in a day is liked by a given person.

 

[oldies76]

6. ...more songs is always better than less songs, even if the additional songs have no passion attached.

CBS-FM does this already, again what's your point??

7. ...radio is a museum, not an entertainment source, and must play all the songs that charted.

Radio is not a museum, but a classic hits station should play exactly that, classic hits! CBS-FM does this already and they entertain. Their weekends and specials are spectacular, something KRTH is dreadfully missing.

8. ...charts from the 50's through the 70's are an accurate reflection of today's listeners' tastes.

It was the best measurement at the time and was accepted by major agencies like Radio & Records, Billboard and local radio station charts. They are used in specialties for reference, such as the Top 101 Beatles and other countdowns on CBS-FM and other stations.

9. ...charts were accurate and untainted and unbiased.

They were the best tool for the time and is the accepted source for rankings and how a song was positioned. Many stations use these charts for their nightly shows and countdowns.

10. ...changes of 0.2 or 0.4 or 0.1 share points in the ratings are meaningful.

It's meaningful for the stations, looking for signs to overtake other stations in ratings competition and rankings.

 

[oldies76]

Tequila is an instrumental in an era when there are essentially no insturmental pop hits. In the 50's and 60's we had lots and lots of insturmentals and they were hits

HUH?

So were there instrumental hits in the late 50's or not?? Your statement contradicts one another.

There were plenty of them in the late 50's: Patricia, Topsy II, Rebel-Rouser, Sleepwalk, Teen Beat, Raunchy and many more in the 60's for sure.

 

[davideduardo]

10. ...changes of 0.2 or 0.4 or 0.1 share points in the ratings are meaningful

It's meaningful for the stations, looking for signs to overtake other stations in ratings competition and rankings.

No, it's not meaningful. Station management knows the margin of error in a survey, and they evaluate the results accordingly.

Movements of +/- 0.3 in a 4 share station are well within the margin of error. Unless a station registers -.3 followed by -.3 followed by -.3, which is a downtrend, little ups and downs like that have zero, zip, nada in meaning.

 

[davideduardo]

Tequila is an instrumental in an era when there are essentially no insturmental pop hits. In the 50's and 60's we had lots and lots of insturmentals and they were hits

HUH?

So were there instrumental hits in the late 50's or not?? Your statement contradicts one another.

There were plenty of them in the late 50's: Patricia, Topsy II, Rebel-Rouser, Sleepwalk, Teen Beat, Raunchy and many more in the 60's for sure.

There have been essentially no instrumental hits for the last 2 decades... it's one of the kinds of music that simply have fallen out of favor.

You forgot Walk Don't Run and all the top albums by the Hollyridge Strings with the instrumental versions of Four seasons and Beach Boys hits.

 

[oldies76]

There have been essentially no instrumental hits for the last 2 decades... it's one of the kinds of music that simply have fallen out of favor.

1985's "Axel F" or "Rainforest", may have been the last two big instrumentals, unless you count Kenny G's crossover jazzy instrumentals, "Songbird"...etc..

You forgot Walk Don't Run and all the top albums by the Hollyridge Strings with the instrumental versions of Four seasons and Beach Boys hits.

"Walk, Don't Run" is a winner too. Never heard of the Hollyridge Strings, I'll have to look them up.

 

[davideduardo]

1. ...consulting your programming with real listeners is somehow wrong.

Never said that. Where did you get this from??

You constantly criticize music tests, without, of course, ever having seen one done.

Everyone has their preferences, including "Tequilla", which by the way IS in rotation, last I checked.

Yes, it, like quite a few 50's and early 60's songs, have either been added or increased in play in the last 6 or 7 weeks. From 2 or three plays a week early in the year, they are now hitting this one about ten to twelve times a week... and it's from '58. You would be at about 65 to have been 13 when this song came out...

A song that tests well and is not liked by you.

I'm just sick of the song... I was sick of it before FMs started showing in the ratings, in fact. And how do you know the song tests? Against what demographic? P1's?

Untested songs are liked by many, tested songs are disliked by many and vice-versa.

First, there are no songs that were, by any standards, hits in all those years that have not been tested over and over and over in dozens and dozens of markets. And the reason to test is to find out what to play (and how often) and what not to play.

i]3. ...if a song was once a "hit" no matter how dubiously, it should be played today.[/i]

CBS-FM does this already, so what's your point??

No, they don't. There are thousands of songs they do not play... for good reason.

4. ...listeners who hate certain songs will not tune out if they hear songs they despise.

Not necessarily, they'll just wait for their favorites to play. Not every song aired in a day is liked by a given person.

There is a difference between songs with strong negatives (hate) and songs with neither negativity nor like (neutral). While some listeners will tolerate an occasional neutral song, they don't put up well with songs with high negatives... matching PPM data with airplay, as MediaMonitors does, proves this conclusively.

 

[davideduardo]

KRTH was performing very very well, until they decided to add the pre-65 stuff into the daily mix.

This is B.S. until you prove it with a playlist.

Here is a sample of mid and early 60's or older songs played either once or twice yesterday, Thursday, on KRTH. That's just one single weekday.

Len Barry, 1,2 ,3
Champs, Tequila
Dave Clark Five Because
Buddy Holly. True Love Ways
Kingsmen Louie Louie
Roy Orbison Oh Pretty WOman
Richie Valens La Bamba
Valens Donna

And lots of early Motown and very early Brit invasion... and some Simon & Garfunkel, etc. That's a lot of mid 60's and earlier... and an explanation for why the numbers in younger demos are going down.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

So I'm seeing various posts here and on the Phoenix board alluding to KRTH
having taken a 24-54 dive in the latest PPM, apparently due to their adding
pre-64 songs back. If this is true, then...

Paging Jhani Kaye! Come on the board and tell us why you did this, and if it
indeed bombed ratings-wise, have you yanked these songs yet?

Have these "oldies" been back in regular rotation, or were they played only
on something like a "lost oldies weekend"? Some recent posts indicate they
were scattered throughout regular weekday programming.

This brings up the question--is Do You Love Me by the Contours (#3, 1962)
exempt from the "no pre-64" rule on classic hits radio? I don't know about
KRTH, but it still gets plenty of spins on KOOL-FM Phoenix, and KOOL came
in at #2 25-54 in the just-released PPM.

 

[oldies76]

You constantly criticize music tests, without, of course, ever having seen one done.

I just assume, since KRTH has been playing the same basic songs for years, give or take a handful, that these songs always do well on music tests. If these 300 or so songs is all what people have heard on KRTH for years on end, then you would have to assume that these are the only songs they prefer on the air. So when it's time for a test session, people can only relate to those 300 songs, because that's all they've basically heard....for years on end on KRTH.

In order to have a large playlist, like CBS-FM, you'd have to play them from the beginning of a period (years back) to get the listeners "used" to your type of sound presented...so these songs will always be accepted and ultimately test well.

Had KRTH kept it's large playlist, like it did in the 80's, instead of cutting it drastically back, when Phillips and Coffey were PD's, it might have a CBS-FM type presentation today. Remember, KRTH was essentially CBS-FM in the mid 80's.

I'm not criticizing the tests, I'm criticizing the lack of song choices on a test, due to a small selection on KRTH to begin with.

 

[oldies76]

Len Barry, 1,2 ,3
Champs, Tequila
Dave Clark Five Because
Buddy Holly. True Love Ways
Kingsmen Louie Louie
Roy Orbison Oh Pretty WOman
Richie Valens La Bamba
Valens Donna

Jeez, these are not new adds, these are the staples that KRTH already plays. They've been playing these for many years, especially "Pretty Woman", La Bamba" and "1-2-3". We are looking for NEW pre-65's that KRTH hasn't played in a long time. Bread and Butter, Blue Velvet or even Soldier Boy would be examples.

 

[davideduardo]

Jeez, these are not new adds, these are the staples that KRTH already plays. They've been playing these for many years, especially "Pretty Woman", La Bamba" and "1-2-3". We are looking for NEW pre-65's that KRTH hasn't played in a long time. Bread and Butter, Blue Velvet or even Soldier Boy would be examples.

The play on all those songs has increased significantly, as I mentioned previously. Tequila, from 2 to 3 weekly plays to 10 to 11 would be an example... and the overall result is that the percentage of songs that are likely neutral to extremely negative to persons under 55.

 

[davideduardo]

I just assume, since KRTH has been playing the same basic songs for years, give or take a handful, that these songs always do well on music tests.

The problem is that a test where those songs score well would include people at the high end demographically... and that is just what KRTH does not need.

The song's don't test in the ages the station, and its sales department, need.

I'm not criticizing the tests, I'm criticizing the lack of song choices on a test, due to a small selection on KRTH to begin with.

Gold based stations tend to test large batches of songs. For the classic hits operation I work with, the list is around 1400 songs each time...

 

[scooty430]

KRTH was performing very very well, until they decided to add the pre-65 stuff into the daily mix.

This is B.S. until you prove it with a playlist.

MediaBase reports are copyright. Even if I violated our agreement, the board editor would nuke the post faster than Amp turns over the hits.

Several other posters have already noted the inclusion of pre-65 stuff resulted in very severe declines in 25-54 rank.

Fine. Then give examples (how about, oh, ten or so) of mid-week pre-65 tunes that you know KRTH added during the time period to which you are referring. Good luck.

I see, above, that you have attempted this, however none of the ones you listed are adds. Kind of shows how you don't really know the playlist very well.

The truth is that it is 1980s that have been added. If you're looking for a cause/effect for some kind of ratings decline, you need to look there. (Though, frankly, the small number of PPMs makes ratings analysis, other than very big picture, kind of a farce.)

Could it be that the person who wants to hear 1980s already has JACK, KOST, and KBIG to go to? By trying to attract 80s fans, you're suddenly competing against a bunch of stations, many of which are way more 80s focused.

My guess is that there is one PPM guy who doesn't like Steve Winwood and Phil Collins, and he stopped listening. There's yer ratings decline! LOL.

 

[scooty430]

Here is a REAL playlist, mid-week, mid-day, two hours.

Wild Cherry - Play That Funky Music (1970s)
Diana Ross - Someday We'll Be Together (1970s)
Phil Collins - You Can't Hurry Love (1980s)
Sly Stone - Dance to the Music (late 60s)
Elton John - Tiny Dancer (1970s)
Stevie Wonder - For Once In My Life (1970s)
Bee Gees - Stayin' Alive (1970s)
Young-Holt Unlimited - Soulful Strut (late 60s)
Jim Croce - I'll Have To Say I Love You In A Song (1970s)
Aretha Franklin - Think (late 60s)
John Lennon - Woman (1980s)
Sam The Sham - Wooly Bully (1965 - KRTH perennial)
Chi-Lites - Have You Seen Her (1970s)
Los Bravos - Black is Black (mid 60s)
Michael Jackson - Beat It (1980s)
Righteous Bros - You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' (mid 60s)
Ike and Tina - Proud Mary (1970s)
Grass Roots - Midnight Confessions (1970s)
Peaches and Herb - Reunited (1980s)
Mamas and Papas - California Dreamin' (mid 60s)
Temptations - Just My Imagination (1970s)
Kingsmen - Louie Louie (1963 - KRTH staple)
Irene Cara - Flashdance (1980s)
Stones - Satisfaction (1965)
Blue Magic - Sideshow (1970s)


There is ONE pre-65 song. (Louie Louie, a song they always have played to death.)
There are FIVE 1980s adds that KRTH did not used to play.
There are ZERO pre-65 adds. Zero.

 

[scooty430]

KRTH was performing very very well, until they decided to add the pre-65 stuff into the daily mix.

This is B.S. until you prove it with a playlist.

Here is a sample of mid and early 60's or older songs played either once or twice yesterday, Thursday, on KRTH. That's just one single weekday.

Len Barry, 1,2 ,3
Champs, Tequila
Dave Clark Five Because
Buddy Holly. True Love Ways
Kingsmen Louie Louie
Roy Orbison Oh Pretty WOman
Richie Valens La Bamba
Valens Donna

And lots of early Motown and very early Brit invasion... and some Simon & Garfunkel, etc. That's a lot of mid 60's and earlier... and an explanation for why the numbers in younger demos are going down.

The only time I've heard Buddy Holly on KRTH (in the past decade) is on a specialty weekend. Haven't heard Valens - Donna either. What date and time were these played?

The other tunes are all on the "we play these until you barf" list of totally burned out KRTH songs. They are NOT adds - not a single. one. I mean, c'mon. Pretty Woman - a new add? Do you even listen to KRTH - ever?

 

[scooty430]

So I'm seeing various posts here and on the Phoenix board alluding to KRTH
having taken a 24-54 dive in the latest PPM, apparently due to their adding
pre-64 songs back. If this is true, then...

Paging Jhani Kaye! Come on the board and tell us why you did this, and if it
indeed bombed ratings-wise, have you yanked these songs yet?

Have these "oldies" been back in regular rotation, or were they played only
on something like a "lost oldies weekend"? Some recent posts indicate they
were scattered throughout regular weekday programming.

This brings up the question--is Do You Love Me by the Contours (#3, 1962)
exempt from the "no pre-64" rule on classic hits radio? I don't know about
KRTH, but it still gets plenty of spins on KOOL-FM Phoenix, and KOOL came
in at #2 25-54 in the just-released PPM.

Nope. No weekday pre-65 adds. They did a few Lost Hits weekends with great old/obscure tunes, and a few people were celebrating on this board.

One poster, David Eduardo, read those posts, then jumped to conclusions, and tried to blame a supposed ratings decline on "adding loads of pre-65 material to the playlist." (He has a set, hardened list of "radio theories" and arranges his reality to fit these preconceived notions.)

He's now trying to backtrack and prove his point, but it isn't quite working.

PS - Unfortunately, KRTH does play that overplayed Contours song from that horrible 1980s movie.