LA PPM RATINGS RELEASED AUGUST 2009

[radioresearcher]

You know, it seems to me that there are a vocal few who simply think that WCBS-FM is the best oldies station on planet earth. That's cool, but you seem to forget that KRTH is not in New York. If it was I doubt that it would be using the Johnny Mann singers and the Drake template. KRTH is a very well programmed station and as mention earlier in this thread, is aimed at women. I've been in the business a long time and to my ears KRTH sounds pretty damn good. But it's very different from CBS-FM. I believe it has to do with a few factors. KRTH's PD is from Southern California and programs to the LA population, one that is very different from New York. Remember, Drake didn't ever do that well in NYC, so what works here, and works well I might add, doesn't seem to work for the Big Apple. CBS-FM, might work in LA, but there would be a lot of songs that wouldn't get played here.

Lucky for you, CBS-FM in available on-line. I say, login and listen, because KRTH is never going to sound like WCBS so give it a rest.

By the way, I too think CBS-FM sounds great, but it's not an LA sound...

Whether you're in NY or LA, boring is boring. And KRTH is too boring. Funny that nobody even SUGGESTS that might be the reason CBS has better ratings.

By the way, a huge number of affluent, demographically "correct" westsiders are either bi-coastal or NYC transplants.

I didn’t realize that affluence had anything to do with what a listener prefers. Do you listen to WCBS all day every day? I think that any station can become boring if that’s all you listen to. Look, you have your opinion and I can respect that, but KRTH will never be WCBS-FM and if you don’t like KRTH, don’t listen to them, listen to CBS-FM on-line. CBS corporate has no reason t make changes at KRTH as it’s been doing quite well thank you. As for those transplanted New Yorkers on the west side, maybe none have been given a PPM. Maybe they just don’t care. Every New Yorker I’ve met living in LA complains about LA not being as great as NYC, but when told that they should move back if it’s so great, to a one they all say no way. Besides, not every New Yorker listens to or loves CBS-FM, that’s why WLTW, Z100, WAXQ and WKTU all do so well there too.

As for CBS-FM having better ratings than KRTH, you’re comparing apples to oranges. The only true test is if they were both in the same market going head to head with each other.

Also, KRTH competes with a Rhythmic Oldies-based station in HOT and an Adult Hits station with 70's and 80's gold in JACK (currently #1 25-54). Neither of those two formats exist in New York.

Not to mention the much larger ethnic composition Los Angeles has and much larger Spanish-language listening.

Apples to oranges.

CBS tried KCBS-FM on 93.1 against KRTH - it was a clone of WCBS-FM with all the NY music and it got creamed.

 

[scooty430]

You know, it seems to me that there are a vocal few who simply think that WCBS-FM is the best oldies station on planet earth. That's cool, but you seem to forget that KRTH is not in New York. If it was I doubt that it would be using the Johnny Mann singers and the Drake template. KRTH is a very well programmed station and as mention earlier in this thread, is aimed at women. I've been in the business a long time and to my ears KRTH sounds pretty damn good. But it's very different from CBS-FM. I believe it has to do with a few factors. KRTH's PD is from Southern California and programs to the LA population, one that is very different from New York. Remember, Drake didn't ever do that well in NYC, so what works here, and works well I might add, doesn't seem to work for the Big Apple. CBS-FM, might work in LA, but there would be a lot of songs that wouldn't get played here.

Lucky for you, CBS-FM in available on-line. I say, login and listen, because KRTH is never going to sound like WCBS so give it a rest.

By the way, I too think CBS-FM sounds great, but it's not an LA sound...

Whether you're in NY or LA, boring is boring. And KRTH is too boring. Funny that nobody even SUGGESTS that might be the reason CBS has better ratings.

By the way, a huge number of affluent, demographically "correct" westsiders are either bi-coastal or NYC transplants.

I didn’t realize that affluence had anything to do with what a listener prefers. Do you listen to WCBS all day every day? I think that any station can become boring if that’s all you listen to. Look, you have your opinion and I can respect that, but KRTH will never be WCBS-FM and if you don’t like KRTH, don’t listen to them, listen to CBS-FM on-line. CBS corporate has no reason t make changes at KRTH as it’s been doing quite well thank you. As for those transplanted New Yorkers on the west side, maybe none have been given a PPM. Maybe they just don’t care. Every New Yorker I’ve met living in LA complains about LA not being as great as NYC, but when told that they should move back if it’s so great, to a one they all say no way. Besides, not every New Yorker listens to or loves CBS-FM, that’s why WLTW, Z100, WAXQ and WKTU all do so well there too.

As for CBS-FM having better ratings than KRTH, you’re comparing apples to oranges. The only true test is if they were both in the same market going head to head with each other.

Well, affluence probably does have something to do with what people prefer, but I was looking at it from an advertiser's standpoint. It definitely has an impact on what you can buy.

Bottom line is this: both are oldies stations in multi-ethnic, cosmopolitan cities, owned by the same company. It is simply amazing to me that nobody thinks: "Hey, in LA, let's at least TRY what is working in our #1 market."

Now, I don't mean copy the playlist or formatics exactly. KRTH sounds just like KHJ in many ways, and I think that's a good thing. What I mean is open up the playlist, do more specialty programming, play 50s to 80s, make it more local, be more engaging. Will that work? I don't know.

But I would certainly listen more, and at least Charlie Tuna would be happier!

 

[scooty430]

You know, it seems to me that there are a vocal few who simply think that WCBS-FM is the best oldies station on planet earth. That's cool, but you seem to forget that KRTH is not in New York. If it was I doubt that it would be using the Johnny Mann singers and the Drake template. KRTH is a very well programmed station and as mention earlier in this thread, is aimed at women. I've been in the business a long time and to my ears KRTH sounds pretty damn good. But it's very different from CBS-FM. I believe it has to do with a few factors. KRTH's PD is from Southern California and programs to the LA population, one that is very different from New York. Remember, Drake didn't ever do that well in NYC, so what works here, and works well I might add, doesn't seem to work for the Big Apple. CBS-FM, might work in LA, but there would be a lot of songs that wouldn't get played here.

Lucky for you, CBS-FM in available on-line. I say, login and listen, because KRTH is never going to sound like WCBS so give it a rest.

By the way, I too think CBS-FM sounds great, but it's not an LA sound...

Whether you're in NY or LA, boring is boring. And KRTH is too boring. Funny that nobody even SUGGESTS that might be the reason CBS has better ratings.

By the way, a huge number of affluent, demographically "correct" westsiders are either bi-coastal or NYC transplants.

I didn’t realize that affluence had anything to do with what a listener prefers. Do you listen to WCBS all day every day? I think that any station can become boring if that’s all you listen to. Look, you have your opinion and I can respect that, but KRTH will never be WCBS-FM and if you don’t like KRTH, don’t listen to them, listen to CBS-FM on-line. CBS corporate has no reason t make changes at KRTH as it’s been doing quite well thank you. As for those transplanted New Yorkers on the west side, maybe none have been given a PPM. Maybe they just don’t care. Every New Yorker I’ve met living in LA complains about LA not being as great as NYC, but when told that they should move back if it’s so great, to a one they all say no way. Besides, not every New Yorker listens to or loves CBS-FM, that’s why WLTW, Z100, WAXQ and WKTU all do so well there too.

As for CBS-FM having better ratings than KRTH, you’re comparing apples to oranges. The only true test is if they were both in the same market going head to head with each other.

Also, KRTH competes with a Rhythmic Oldies-based station in HOT and an Adult Hits station with 70's and 80's gold in JACK (currently #1 25-54). Neither of those two formats exist in New York.

Not to mention the much larger ethnic composition Los Angeles has and much larger Spanish-language listening.

Apples to oranges.

CBS tried KCBS-FM on 93.1 against KRTH - it was a clone of WCBS-FM with all the NY music and it got creamed.

Are you talking about Oldies 93? Now that is an apples and oranges thing! That was two oldies stations going head to head! Fifteen years ago! And at the time, WCBS was a boring station cranking out the usual suspects, so of course copying that (if they did indeed do so - I have no idea if that's true) probably failed.

I do know KRTH had a nice fat playlist back then, and great specialty features on a regular basis. Oldies76 mentions the "every #1 in history weekends" they used to do. I have airchecks with all kinds of unusual songs KRTH wouldn't touch today. So....you're saying that worked? You're saying that "creamed" Oldies 93? Well....I'll let you figure out the rest.

 

[calguy]

Quote frpm scooty430
Bottom line is this: both are oldies stations in multi-ethnic, cosmopolitan cities, owned by the same company. It is simply amazing to me that nobody thinks: "Hey, in LA, let's at least TRY what is working in our #1 market."

Now, I don't mean copy the playlist or formatics exactly. KRTH sounds just like KHJ in many ways, and I think that's a good thing. What I mean is open up the playlist, do more specialty programming, play 50s to 80s, make it more local, be more engaging. Will that work? I don't know.

But I would certainly listen more, and at least Charlie Tuna would be happier!

I can agree to more specialty programming and a smattering of 50's and 80's. As for more local, more engaging, well within the boundaries of the Drake format and that of Jhani Kaye I don't think you'll see much room for that, but it is possible. Yes both markets are multi-ethnic, but the percentages are very different, and Latinos in NYC are from different places than most of those in LA so I don't see a real similarity.

As for Charlie, he should be happy already as he gets away with more than any of the jocks outside of morning drive. Personally I think Tuna uses too much audio as it is. He sounds great, but I want to hear him do a talk up without a wild track here and there.

 

[calguy]

CBS-FM in LA was under the control of some suit in New York and as such was forced to play NYC style oldies. Doo Wop doesn't work out here and it was proven all those years ago. And remember, KCBS-FM had Tuna, Steele, MG Kelly and if I remember correctly Humble Harve and with those guys they should have killed the competition. Ask anyone who worked there and the major complaint was the East Coast oldies...

 

[davideduardo]

It's hard to really know, though, why KRTH's PPM ratings are down (in the desired demos - they aren't really down overall.) Is it because the 80s music is a turn-off? Are people bored by KRTH now that the new 70s songs are starting to be burned out? Is it just a random dip caused by one or two PPM people on vacation or forgetting to wear meters?

Every significant station in a rated market in the US targets some portion of the spectrum betwen 18 and 54, and increasingly, 18 to 48. So KRTH's target is within the upper border of 55, as nothing over that is salable.

Specifically, KRTH is targeted at 35-54, and, obviously, more at 45-54.

KRTH's 25-54 numbers are down in the target and salable demo of 25-54, from a peak of 3rd to somewhere around 12th. This decline has seemingly been a progression downwards over a 9 month period, so there is no correlation with summer or any sample related issue. The station has a 25-54 problem... and, as I mentioned the issues appear to be a bad male-female balance and older songs that apparently are not being well received by the target demo.

David - I also think some of the 80's music they've put in (Chaka Khan, Naked Eyes, The Motels, and Culture Club) don't play well with the older music. It creates tune out. But not only did they add more 80's, they added more pre-65 - which gives you a wide, unfocused product.

Um, no. They didn't add more pre-65. (Usually referred to as pre-64, if you want to be technical. Beatles are the typical cut-off band.)

They added more and they dramatically increased the weekly spins... in some cases by a factor of 4 or 5 times as many.

And I don't care what your "History of Rock and Roll" cutoff is. I am using markers that determine the demographic appeal of a station, and it is pretty clear that KRTH has severe 25-54 issues because they are not watching those markers.

 

[davideduardo]

If you are, by using the term "sock puppet," implying that me and Oldies 76 are the same guy, we aren't.

And frogs dance flamenco.

Anyway, you LOVE to twist facts. You know as well as I do that stations like CBS-FM and KRTH stopped using the term Oldies a few years back.

I was speaking in general, national terms. Positioning statements often change faster than the films at your local multiplex, and my point is that in the industry, oldies and classic hits have very specific meanings, while to the listener classic hits generally has little meaning and "oldies" is a generic term each generation uses to define their "old school" music.

"True Oldies" is used on the air quite a bit - for instance Scott Shannon's true oldies - to denote oldies as they originally, for the most part, were: 1972 as a cut-off date.

You are confusing positioners for the listener with the industry terms used to define target, listing with Arbitron, agency presentations and perceptions, etc.

 

[davideduardo]

Bottom line is this: both are oldies stations in multi-ethnic, cosmopolitan cities, owned by the same company. It is simply amazing to me that nobody thinks: "Hey, in LA, let's at least TRY what is working in our #1 market."

First, LA is CBS's #1 market. And KRTH outbills CBS-FM by a lot (although the decline in 25-54 puts that in jeopardy). LA is the larger radio market in billing, by quite a margin in fact.

And LA's ethnicity is extremely different from New York's, to single out one of the several significant differences.

NY Hispanics are, in percentage, less than half of what LA Hispanics are. They are, predominantly, from the Caribbean Basin, mostly Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. Their taste, if they listen to English radio, leans to rhythmic due to the considerable Afro-Caribbean elements in their collective culture (salsa, merengue, etc) while LA Hispanics are about 90% Mexican in origin or heritage, and have no Afro-Caribbean influence to speak of. So the songs, whether currents or oldies they might like are going to be dramatically different.

I could go on about the general musical differences historically, the effects of a benign vs. a harsh climate, the other ethnic influences in NY, but this one example shows just how totally wrong you are.

 

[davideduardo]

David: can you explain to what is the internal radio/advertising meaning for "oldies" and "classic hits"? is it strictly in relation to demo breakdowns? thanks!

"Oldies" (and Radioresearcher is best qualified to post on the criteria for actually being considered for the term... for things like MediaBase and BDS, for example) is generally accepted to mean a pop/Top 40 based format playing most of the music from the 60's, with perhaps a smattering of early 70's and a touch of late 50's. Classic Hits is mostly 70's, with some 60's, and some early 80's.

The appeal of each music core defines the demos. Oldies tend to be 50 or 55+, while Classic Hits will get more of a 35-54 core. Since agency buys seldom are for 55+, guess which format has sales appeal? And guess what music stations need to stay away from if they want to have salable demos?

 

[davideduardo]

By the way, a huge number of affluent, demographically "correct" westsiders are either bi-coastal or NYC transplants.

The "West Side" is one of the smaller survey subsets in Arbitron. And people who commute between various places or homes in different markets are unlikely to either be on or stay on a PPM panel.

Most ad buys are based on cost per point, not income levels.

 

[oldies76]

Scooty has recently revealed that he is not in the older part of the boomer generation, and thus did not hear the songs of the 60's and most of the 70's as currents... those of us who lived the era of those songs are tired of many of them... while they are still fresh to Scooty and his sock puppet Oldies76.

Yeah, they are tired of them, when they are repeated over and over, something KRTH flourishes on. I don't need to hear "My Girl" 10 times a week. Once a week mixed with all the other hits would appeal. Even the regular listeners of KRTH or any station would be sick and tired of frequently repeated music. Even I would be too.

Music has to be spread out in all directions. Play the top hits (tested music) and mix them with neutrals (hundreds of them) with a few non-tested songs . Just don't repeat them so darn frequently or many will tune out eventually.

By the way, I was born in 1967 and I lived through the 70's and early 80's currents and I enjoy hearing them TODAY. Only my music interest has me listening to hits as far back as 1955. BUT since they are oldies and classic hits, they should be played on these stations. Someone is bound to like them, it's been proven. There are so-many good songs out there that are being neglected, simple as that.

 

[oldies76]

Or, better yet, get rid of the tired 60's stuff. Personally, I can't listen to KRTH any more, and it is likely due to the old, old stuff.

Why should the 60's just go away? You are in the vast minority here. You are not seeing it as a listener, just you and your sock-puppet consultants!

 

[oldies76]

Well....I'm definitely sick of the 60s (and now some 70s) songs KRTH plays, but not the 60s overall. There are hundreds of 60s songs I haven't even heard yet. (Same with 50s.)

Anyone would be sick and tired of any music, if it's aired repeatedly and frequently, anyone would. KRTH just does not have the will to "so-called" risk it and expand beyond it's boundaries.

 

[oldies76]

You know, it seems to me that there are a vocal few who simply think that WCBS-FM is the best oldies station on planet earth.
Lucky for you, CBS-FM in available on-line. I say, login and listen, because KRTH is never going to sound like WCBS so give it a rest.

We are not saying its the best on earth. What we are saying, is that "musically" they sound top notch. For a major market station to play 50's thru the 80's daily with real specials, is something special and really, is rare to find these days! So enjoy...

 

[davideduardo]

Or, better yet, get rid of the tired 60's stuff. Personally, I can't listen to KRTH any more, and it is likely due to the old, old stuff.

Why should the 60's just go away? You are in the vast minority here. You are not seeing it as a listener, just you and your sock-puppet consultants!

I am seeing the reality of someone who was 13 when Motown hit, who is now in their late 50's and out of the sales demos. Why would any station want to attract listeners that are not of interest to advertisers when the programming for those listeners will be unattractive or negative to the under-55 listener?

OK, so 6 of those songs were featured in movies; you can't program based on Build Me Up Buttercup-like movie tunes.

 

[oldies76]

I do know KRTH had a nice fat playlist back then, and great specialty features on a regular basis. Oldies76 mentions the "every #1 in history weekends" they used to do. I have airchecks with all kinds of unusual songs KRTH wouldn't touch today.

KRTH did have a fat playlist then and had numerous specials, like the #1's and 2's weekend, a REAL Firecracker 500..etc.
Why couldn't they have kept this format now? Remember, it had to do with new PD's taking over and just destroying the overall presentation of K-Earth in the 90's. Since then, it's been a slow road back to, maybe 20% of earlier presentations and songs since Kaye took over.

 

[oldies76]

I am seeing the reality of someone who was 13 when Motown hit, who is now in their late 50's and out of the sales demos. Why would any station want to attract listeners that are not of interest to advertisers when the programming for those listeners will be unattractive or negative to the under-55 listener?

If that's your theory, then tell us why CBS-FM continues to play all the 50's, 60's early 70's in rotation daily, during weekends and during specials and Sunday night countdowns? Why??

Obviously, it must be working for them somehow.

What about the top 101 Beatles countdown they just aired on 9-09? Do you think 55+ will purchase the Beatles Rockband? No, it is aimed at the yound crowd or the low end of 25-54. 55+ rarely play video games, if ever.

 

[davideduardo]

Play the top hits (tested music) and mix them with neutrals (hundreds of them) with a few non-tested songs . Just don't repeat them so darn frequently or many will tune out eventually.

Great. That means play some songs listeners want to hear, some they don't give a darn about one way or another, and then find some untested songs (every song from the 50's through today has been tested over and over and over)... whatever "untested" means.

And given that the average listener spends around 3 hours a week with a station, playing a song 10 times a week means, if correctly rotated, it will be over two months before it is heard again by that listener.

By the way, I was born in 1967 and I lived through the 70's and early 80's currents and I enjoy hearing them TODAY. Only my music interest has me listening to hits as far back as 1955.

You are atypical, and no station would want to try to attract you. Like many on these boards, you want something that radio can not give because to do so would be suicidal.

 

[davideduardo]

What about the top 101 Beatles countdown they just aired on 9-09? Do you think 55+ will purchase the Beatles Rockband? No, it is aimed at the yound crowd or the low end of 25-54. 55+ rarely play video games, if ever.

The purchasers of Beatles sets will be principally those who live the Beatles era.... which extended well into the 70's.

And nearly ever 50+ I know loves video games... these are the folks who played pacman in the late 70's and early 80's when they were in their 20's and 30's. We had Atari's and Commodores and Apple I's and Apple IIs and built S-100 bus machines.

 

[oldies76]

The purchasers of Beatles sets will be principally those who live the Beatles era.... which extended well into the 70's.

And nearly ever 50+ I know loves video games... these are the folks who played pacman in the late 70's and early 80's when they were in their 20's and 30's. We had Atari's and Commodores and Apple I's and Apple IIs and built S-100 bus machines.

I don't believe too many 55+ would be attracted to the complexities of today's video games on X-Box or Wi..etc..
They might however, play the simpler games, like Pac-Man, Centipede, Galaga..etc.. By the way Pac-Man was released in late 1980 as a coin-op in the USA. Those Atari 2600's / 400's / Commodore 64's were sure fun in their day.

But getting back to music, why do you think CBS-FM would play the top 101 Beatles songs all day long on a Tuesday, but not KRTH? I would believe Angelinos in the 25-54 would like hearing the Beatles as a commemoration, just like any 25-54 in any other area, such as NYC. Their music is so important, it can't be ignored.