LA PPM RATINGS RELEASED AUGUST 2009

[surfdude]

Scooty and Oldies are "oldies nerds". Can't program for you guys. You sure do listen to KRTH a lot, for not liking it.

Women in their 40s love DIRTY DANCING. Many of the older oldies mentioned are from movies that
are much more recent. PRETTY WOMAN, DO YOU LOVE ME, TEQUILA, LOUIE LOUIE, MY GIRL...all from 80s movies.
Makes those songs appeal to a newer than original generation.

Oldies/Classic Hit stations program to women as much or more so than men. Women, as a general rule, want to hear their favorite songs to feel good, and you can't play them often enough for them.

An Oldies station targeted just for men, would sound a lot different than almost any Oldies station that exists today.
But, it would not have enough ratings to survive.

K-Earth sounds very good to my, and my wife's 45 year old ears.

Some of the 80s songs, synthesized sound, sound out of place, though. (Blondie, Eurythmics, FLASHDANCE. etc)

 

[oldies76]

Diana Ross - Someday We'll Be Together (1970s)
Stevie Wonder - For Once In My Life (1970s)
Grass Roots - Midnight Confessions (1970s)
Peaches and Herb - Reunited (1980s)

Oops Scooty, the first three songs are from 68/69
Reunited is from 1979.

 

[oldies76]

Scooty and Oldies are "oldies nerds". Can't program for you guys.

CBS-FM does.

Women in their 40s love DIRTY DANCING. Many of the older oldies mentioned are from movies that
are much more recent. PRETTY WOMAN, DO YOU LOVE ME, TEQUILA, LOUIE LOUIE, MY GIRL...all from 80s movies.
Makes those songs appeal to a newer than original generation.

There are hundreds of other songs that will appeal too.

Some of the 80s songs, synthesized sound, sound out of place, though. (Blondie, Eurythmics, FLASHDANCE. etc)

Synthesized sound is what the 80's are about, just like disco is for the 70's and psychedelia, motown is for the late 60's.

 

[scooty430]

Scooty and Oldies are "oldies nerds". Can't program for you guys. You sure do listen to KRTH a lot, for not liking it.

Women in their 40s love DIRTY DANCING. Many of the older oldies mentioned are from movies that
are much more recent. PRETTY WOMAN, DO YOU LOVE ME, TEQUILA, LOUIE LOUIE, MY GIRL...all from 80s movies.
Makes those songs appeal to a newer than original generation.

Oldies/Classic Hit stations program to women as much or more so than men. Women, as a general rule, want to hear their favorite songs to feel good, and you can't play them often enough for them.

An Oldies station targeted just for men, would sound a lot different than almost any Oldies station that exists today.
But, it would not have enough ratings to survive.

K-Earth sounds very good to my, and my wife's 45 year old ears.

Some of the 80s songs, synthesized sound, sound out of place, though. (Blondie, Eurythmics, FLASHDANCE. etc)

You're right about songs appearing in movies and suddenly becoming current/recognizable to younger people. I certainly remember all the kids at my school suddenly signing this song called "Doo Wah Ditty" in the early 80's. It was not because of radio, it was the movie Stripes.

Which goes to show that if oldies stations would mix in MORE old songs, younger people might grow to like them. A good example is "How Can You Mend A Broken Heart" by the Bee Gees. If I had heard a snippet of that song in a test ten years ago, I would have said thumbs down. But about five years ago, KRTH added that song, and it grew on me. But it took at least six or seven complete listens for me to like it. Same with Neil Diamond's "Solitary Man."

The 80s songs do sound of out of place; you are right. But those (and the late 70s they added two years ago) have made the station listenable. Unfortunately some of the songs (Play That Funky Music, Listen to the Music, etc.) are starting to get burned out like the 60s songs are. They need to play more songs! Why are they only playing ONE Abba song, for instance? (I know - it tests the best. But you'll kill Dancing Queen if you only play that one song.)

Anyhow, I don't really listen to KRTH much at all. I'll sort of "monitor" it as I'm cruising through the dial in the car, mostly because oldies is my favorite genre, and there are no other oldies choices. I also want to be around if there is actually a cool A to Z type feature - I'll routinely listen at 12pm Friday to see what the "weekend theme" is. (Usually the mysterious Parade of Hits - what IS a parade of hits?)

And yes, you CAN program to us oldies nerds AND the masses. That would be CBS-FM.

 

[scooty430]

Diana Ross - Someday We'll Be Together (1970s)
Stevie Wonder - For Once In My Life (1970s)
Grass Roots - Midnight Confessions (1970s)
Peaches and Herb - Reunited (1980s)

Oops Scooty, the first three songs are from 68/69
Reunited is from 1979.

Man, I should know Reunited's year, I was around for that one! Thanks for the correction.

The others - well I wasn't alive, so my estimates aren't too ridiculous without cheating by looking it up. LOL.

I actually thought Midnight Confessions was 1970s because, on a tape I made of the Seventies at Seven, KRTH played it. (This was a 70s at 7 from way back in 1988 - MUCH deeper cuts back then!) Maybe it peaked in the 70s or something.

However, Reunited IS a song that they just added in the most recent batch of 1980s adds.

 

[radioresearcher]

KRTH is still one of the oldest skewing Oldies stations by year:

There is a report that tells you the "average year" of a song on a station. Of the PPM Oldies stations, only WLS-FM (True Oldies)/Chicago and WMXJ/Miami are older than KRTH. WMXJ has also seen only moderate PPM results:

KRTH's average year is 1970.9

Meanwhile, KOLA/Riverside, which has huge PPM numbers, has an average year of 1975.3

WOGL/Philly is at 1972.8 and and WCBS-FM is at 1971.9

Remember that PPM is much more sensitive to bad segues than the diary system which was more forgiving.

The issue personally for me with KRTH - is the train wrecks with the eras. Scooty may be right that the inclusion of some 80's music may be hurting the core.

It's all about evolving your product and putting in things that fit. My belief is always for a focused product.

This morning KRTH went from "I Say A Little Prayer" by Dionne Warwick into "Smooth" by Santana.

Later they went from "Call Me" by Blondie into "If I Fell" by the Beatles

Going 80's into mid 60's may be too much and maybe they need transition songs.

Regardless, something is happening here because KRTH has been on steady decline, while KOLA and XPRS-FM in San Diego in nearby markets are flourishing.

 

[davideduardo]

Oldies/Classic Hit stations program to women as much or more so than men. Women, as a general rule, want to hear their favorite songs to feel good, and you can't play them often enough for them.

An Oldies station targeted just for men, would sound a lot different than almost any Oldies station that exists today.
But, it would not have enough ratings to survive.

I have often said that KRTH sounds more like a gold based AC much of the time, while CBS-FM is the classic "good time oldies" sound.

KRTH tends to be 55% women and 45% Men, and it is losing ground.

CBS-FM is about 58% men and 42% women and it is gaining.

Aside from the content issues, and the extreme differences in the content, the focus here is on the PPM.

In the diary, more of the overall listening was by women. In the PPM, women listen considerably less than men...nearly 20% less. So unless a station also does very well in male audience, it is at a disadvantage.

CBS FM is in the top two or three in men 25-54, but not in the top 5 in the sales demos, but nobody disputes that it is a winner overall.

KRTH is obviously very female in appeal, and is doing far less well in 25-54. So we have two main issues with KRTH... it is very female in a PPM world, and it is too old leaning in a media buying world that despises 55+. They need to nuke the 60's stuff... because they are in LA, and they need to cater better to the men.

Your mistaken impression about women has revealed KRTH's core defects!

 

[davideduardo]

Going 80's into mid 60's may be too much and maybe they need transition songs.

Or, better yet, get rid of the tired 60's stuff. Personally, I can't listen to KRTH any more, and it is likely due to the old, old stuff.

Scooty has recently revealed that he is not in the older part of the boomer generation, and thus did not hear the songs of the 60's and most of the 70's as currents... those of us who lived the era of those songs are tired of many of them... while they are still fresh to Scooty and his sock puppet Oldies76.

 

[scooty430]

Going 80's into mid 60's may be too much and maybe they need transition songs.

Or, better yet, get rid of the tired 60's stuff. Personally, I can't listen to KRTH any more, and it is likely due to the old, old stuff.

Scooty has recently revealed that he is not in the older part of the boomer generation, and thus did not hear the songs of the 60's and most of the 70's as currents... those of us who lived the era of those songs are tired of many of them... while they are still fresh to Scooty and his sock puppet Oldies76.

Well....I'm definitely sick of the 60s (and now some 70s) songs KRTH plays, but not the 60s overall. There are hundreds of 60s songs I haven't even heard yet. (Same with 50s.) I had XM for awhile, and it was wonderful, but it became very boring after the merger and I dropped them.

I think "on paper" it makes sense for KRTH to dump 60s and go 70s/80s only. The problem with that is that they would no longer be "K-Earth" to most Angelenos. Jhani is smart. He is pushing the music ever so gently forward, but not losing (and I hate this term) "the brand" of KRTH, because that is very valuable.

If he loses that "KRTH" brand, 101.1 becomes just another spot on the dial.

It's hard to really know, though, why KRTH's PPM ratings are down (in the desired demos - they aren't really down overall.) Is it because the 80s music is a turn-off? Are people bored by KRTH now that the new 70s songs are starting to be burned out? Is it just a random dip caused by one or two PPM people on vacation or forgetting to wear meters? Does JACK suck away too many people, especially guys? Is KOST, with all the 80s and uptempo stuff, sucking away people? I think analyzing it is fairly difficult.

The smart move, I think, is what CBS-FM is doing:

- play 50s to 80s
- daytime play lots of 70s and 80s to pay the bills
- keep the heritage alive with authentic countdowns and creative programming every day, and especially on weekends
- play enough rarer tracks to keep it from being so stale
- pay people to wear PPMs (Oh wait, they probably can't do that.)

Is it perfect? No. I can't stand Madonna, Cyndi Lauper, Phil Collins, and most of the 80s, and CBS plays quite a bit of that stuff. It was bad enough hearing that in junior high. But there are enough surprises and things that I DO like to get me to listen, even to a crummy internet stream.

 

[scooty430]

KRTH is still one of the oldest skewing Oldies stations by year:

There is a report that tells you the "average year" of a song on a station. Of the PPM Oldies stations, only WLS-FM (True Oldies)/Chicago and WMXJ/Miami are older than KRTH. WMXJ has also seen only moderate PPM results:

KRTH's average year is 1970.9

Meanwhile, KOLA/Riverside, which has huge PPM numbers, has an average year of 1975.3

WOGL/Philly is at 1972.8 and and WCBS-FM is at 1971.9

Remember that PPM is much more sensitive to bad segues than the diary system which was more forgiving.

The issue personally for me with KRTH - is the train wrecks with the eras. Scooty may be right that the inclusion of some 80's music may be hurting the core.

It's all about evolving your product and putting in things that fit. My belief is always for a focused product.

This morning KRTH went from "I Say A Little Prayer" by Dionne Warwick into "Smooth" by Santana.

Later they went from "Call Me" by Blondie into "If I Fell" by the Beatles

Going 80's into mid 60's may be too much and maybe they need transition songs.

Regardless, something is happening here because KRTH has been on steady decline, while KOLA and XPRS-FM in San Diego in nearby markets are flourishing.

WLS is really abusing the "true oldies" term. To me that is exclusively 1955-1972, or maybe even 1955-1964.

It's interesting to see the "year average." But more telling is the SPAN of years. CBS-FM plays older and later stuff than KRTH's more narrow range. Also important is how deep the tracks are. CBS, again, has a much broader range of songs. I frankly don't think 1970.1 vs. 1971.3 (or whatever) makes THAT much difference, though it's an interesting stat.

 

[calguy]

You know, it seems to me that there are a vocal few who simply think that WCBS-FM is the best oldies station on planet earth. That's cool, but you seem to forget that KRTH is not in New York. If it was I doubt that it would be using the Johnny Mann singers and the Drake template. KRTH is a very well programmed station and as mention earlier in this thread, is aimed at women. I've been in the business a long time and to my ears KRTH sounds pretty damn good. But it's very different from CBS-FM. I believe it has to do with a few factors. KRTH's PD is from Southern California and programs to the LA population, one that is very different from New York. Remember, Drake didn't ever do that well in NYC, so what works here, and works well I might add, doesn't seem to work for the Big Apple. CBS-FM, might work in LA, but there would be a lot of songs that wouldn't get played here.

Lucky for you, CBS-FM in available on-line. I say, login and listen, because KRTH is never going to sound like WCBS so give it a rest.

By the way, I too think CBS-FM sounds great, but it's not an LA sound...

 

[davideduardo]

It's hard to really know, though, why KRTH's PPM ratings are down (in the desired demos - they aren't really down overall.) Is it because the 80s music is a turn-off? Are people bored by KRTH now that the new 70s songs are starting to be burned out? Is it just a random dip caused by one or two PPM people on vacation or forgetting to wear meters?

Every significant station in a rated market in the US targets some portion of the spectrum betwen 18 and 54, and increasingly, 18 to 48. So KRTH's target is within the upper border of 55, as nothing over that is salable.

Specifically, KRTH is targeted at 35-54, and, obviously, more at 45-54.

KRTH's 25-54 numbers are down in the target and salable demo of 25-54, from a peak of 3rd to somewhere around 12th. This decline has seemingly been a progression downwards over a 9 month period, so there is no correlation with summer or any sample related issue. The station has a 25-54 problem... and, as I mentioned the issues appear to be a bad male-female balance and older songs that apparently are not being well received by the target demo.

 

[davideduardo]

WLS is really abusing the "true oldies" term. To me that is exclusively 1955-1972, or maybe even 1955-1964.

As I have mentioned to you or your sock puppet Oldies76, the "oldies" and "classic hits" designations are internal, radio and advertising industry terms. They have relevance there, but have none "on the air" and to listeners. The oldies term is broader to the listener, and, in most cases is not negative even when applied to 70's core formats, as most folks use the term quite generically.

 

[radioresearcher]

It's hard to really know, though, why KRTH's PPM ratings are down (in the desired demos - they aren't really down overall.) Is it because the 80s music is a turn-off? Are people bored by KRTH now that the new 70s songs are starting to be burned out? Is it just a random dip caused by one or two PPM people on vacation or forgetting to wear meters?

Every significant station in a rated market in the US targets some portion of the spectrum betwen 18 and 54, and increasingly, 18 to 48. So KRTH's target is within the upper border of 55, as nothing over that is salable.

Specifically, KRTH is targeted at 35-54, and, obviously, more at 45-54.

KRTH's 25-54 numbers are down in the target and salable demo of 25-54, from a peak of 3rd to somewhere around 12th. This decline has seemingly been a progression downwards over a 9 month period, so there is no correlation with summer or any sample related issue. The station has a 25-54 problem... and, as I mentioned the issues appear to be a bad male-female balance and older songs that apparently are not being well received by the target demo.

David - I also think some of the 80's music they've put in (Chaka Khan, Naked Eyes, The Motels, and Culture Club) don't play well with the older music. It creates tune out. But not only did they add more 80's, they added more pre-65 - which gives you a wide, unfocused product.

 

[fred75]

David: can you explain to what is the internal radio/advertising meaning for "oldies" and "classic hits"? is it strictly in relation to demo breakdowns? thanks!

 

[scooty430]

It's hard to really know, though, why KRTH's PPM ratings are down (in the desired demos - they aren't really down overall.) Is it because the 80s music is a turn-off? Are people bored by KRTH now that the new 70s songs are starting to be burned out? Is it just a random dip caused by one or two PPM people on vacation or forgetting to wear meters?

Every significant station in a rated market in the US targets some portion of the spectrum betwen 18 and 54, and increasingly, 18 to 48. So KRTH's target is within the upper border of 55, as nothing over that is salable.

Specifically, KRTH is targeted at 35-54, and, obviously, more at 45-54.

KRTH's 25-54 numbers are down in the target and salable demo of 25-54, from a peak of 3rd to somewhere around 12th. This decline has seemingly been a progression downwards over a 9 month period, so there is no correlation with summer or any sample related issue. The station has a 25-54 problem... and, as I mentioned the issues appear to be a bad male-female balance and older songs that apparently are not being well received by the target demo.

Older song "theory" doesn't hold water. They are playing the same older songs they always have.

There have been only two changes during the last 9 months:

- adding 1980s
- no more huge presentations of deep cuts, like the top 1001 or A to Z. The "Lost Hits" (August) was the first time they broke that pattern, on a very limited basis.

 

[scooty430]

WLS is really abusing the "true oldies" term. To me that is exclusively 1955-1972, or maybe even 1955-1964.

As I have mentioned to you or your sock puppet Oldies76, the "oldies" and "classic hits" designations are internal, radio and advertising industry terms. They have relevance there, but have none "on the air" and to listeners. The oldies term is broader to the listener, and, in most cases is not negative even when applied to 70's core formats, as most folks use the term quite generically.

If you are, by using the term "sock puppet," implying that me and Oldies 76 are the same guy, we aren't.

Anyway, you LOVE to twist facts. You know as well as I do that stations like CBS-FM and KRTH stopped using the term Oldies a few years back. All the on-air references stopped. It's, clearly, because they thought the word "old" would turn people off, and that "oldies" means Elvis and Tequila to people. (True.) They made a rather silly attempt to coin the term "Classic Hits," but I'm pretty sure the term "classic" to most people means classic rock, so they backed off.

"True Oldies" is used on the air quite a bit - for instance Scott Shannon's true oldies - to denote oldies as they originally, for the most part, were: 1972 as a cut-off date.

You also know (or maybe you don't?) that they've brought the term "Oldies" back as of late. Why not just admit it, instead of trying to hide behind semantic mumbo-jumbo?

 

[scooty430]

It's hard to really know, though, why KRTH's PPM ratings are down (in the desired demos - they aren't really down overall.) Is it because the 80s music is a turn-off? Are people bored by KRTH now that the new 70s songs are starting to be burned out? Is it just a random dip caused by one or two PPM people on vacation or forgetting to wear meters?

Every significant station in a rated market in the US targets some portion of the spectrum betwen 18 and 54, and increasingly, 18 to 48. So KRTH's target is within the upper border of 55, as nothing over that is salable.

Specifically, KRTH is targeted at 35-54, and, obviously, more at 45-54.

KRTH's 25-54 numbers are down in the target and salable demo of 25-54, from a peak of 3rd to somewhere around 12th. This decline has seemingly been a progression downwards over a 9 month period, so there is no correlation with summer or any sample related issue. The station has a 25-54 problem... and, as I mentioned the issues appear to be a bad male-female balance and older songs that apparently are not being well received by the target demo.

David - I also think some of the 80's music they've put in (Chaka Khan, Naked Eyes, The Motels, and Culture Club) don't play well with the older music. It creates tune out. But not only did they add more 80's, they added more pre-65 - which gives you a wide, unfocused product.

Um, no. They didn't add more pre-65. (Usually referred to as pre-64, if you want to be technical. Beatles are the typical cut-off band.)

 

[scooty430]

You know, it seems to me that there are a vocal few who simply think that WCBS-FM is the best oldies station on planet earth. That's cool, but you seem to forget that KRTH is not in New York. If it was I doubt that it would be using the Johnny Mann singers and the Drake template. KRTH is a very well programmed station and as mention earlier in this thread, is aimed at women. I've been in the business a long time and to my ears KRTH sounds pretty damn good. But it's very different from CBS-FM. I believe it has to do with a few factors. KRTH's PD is from Southern California and programs to the LA population, one that is very different from New York. Remember, Drake didn't ever do that well in NYC, so what works here, and works well I might add, doesn't seem to work for the Big Apple. CBS-FM, might work in LA, but there would be a lot of songs that wouldn't get played here.

Lucky for you, CBS-FM in available on-line. I say, login and listen, because KRTH is never going to sound like WCBS so give it a rest.

By the way, I too think CBS-FM sounds great, but it's not an LA sound...

Whether you're in NY or LA, boring is boring. And KRTH is too boring. Funny that nobody even SUGGESTS that might be the reason CBS has better ratings.

By the way, a huge number of affluent, demographically "correct" westsiders are either bi-coastal or NYC transplants.

 

[calguy]

You know, it seems to me that there are a vocal few who simply think that WCBS-FM is the best oldies station on planet earth. That's cool, but you seem to forget that KRTH is not in New York. If it was I doubt that it would be using the Johnny Mann singers and the Drake template. KRTH is a very well programmed station and as mention earlier in this thread, is aimed at women. I've been in the business a long time and to my ears KRTH sounds pretty damn good. But it's very different from CBS-FM. I believe it has to do with a few factors. KRTH's PD is from Southern California and programs to the LA population, one that is very different from New York. Remember, Drake didn't ever do that well in NYC, so what works here, and works well I might add, doesn't seem to work for the Big Apple. CBS-FM, might work in LA, but there would be a lot of songs that wouldn't get played here.

Lucky for you, CBS-FM in available on-line. I say, login and listen, because KRTH is never going to sound like WCBS so give it a rest.

By the way, I too think CBS-FM sounds great, but it's not an LA sound...

Whether you're in NY or LA, boring is boring. And KRTH is too boring. Funny that nobody even SUGGESTS that might be the reason CBS has better ratings.

By the way, a huge number of affluent, demographically "correct" westsiders are either bi-coastal or NYC transplants.

I didn’t realize that affluence had anything to do with what a listener prefers. Do you listen to WCBS all day every day? I think that any station can become boring if that’s all you listen to. Look, you have your opinion and I can respect that, but KRTH will never be WCBS-FM and if you don’t like KRTH, don’t listen to them, listen to CBS-FM on-line. CBS corporate has no reason t make changes at KRTH as it’s been doing quite well thank you. As for those transplanted New Yorkers on the west side, maybe none have been given a PPM. Maybe they just don’t care. Every New Yorker I’ve met living in LA complains about LA not being as great as NYC, but when told that they should move back if it’s so great, to a one they all say no way. Besides, not every New Yorker listens to or loves CBS-FM, that’s why WLTW, Z100, WAXQ and WKTU all do so well there too.

As for CBS-FM having better ratings than KRTH, you’re comparing apples to oranges. The only true test is if they were both in the same market going head to head with each other.