Large Metro Areas w/o Major Signals

[peppertree]

Re: No, not logical

"And now let's see what is happening in Ft. Lauderdale and Broward County with X at the Channel X Broward desk."

Does that sound about right?


> Broward news isn't 2nd banana to what happens in Miami.
>
> It may be logical -- based on the ratings system market
> structure, but it isn't right.
>
> 73s from 954
>
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[peppertree]

Re: Broward is a foreign language ghetto within the Miami market...

You are incorrect. Miami is officially bi-lingual with two official languages.


> The foreign language, of course, is English...
>
> The majority population there being Anglos, isolated from
> the mainstream of Miami-Dade, who won't learn the official
> language of their metro ;-)
> <P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Why Not Redistribute AMs to Growth Areas?

> I've been trashed on this idea before, but...
>
> Why not reallocate some of the A and low-interference B
> assignments to fast-growing areas without good AM coverage?
> Give the Navajo Nation some nice high-tower FM sites and a
> nice purchase price to start a fund to run them, then move
> 660 to Phoenix, for example.

The terrain at the Four Corners pretty much makes this impossible. The AM is the only station that could cover the whole area, which is bigger than Connecticut. It is very rugged, and FM would miss a lot... or the Nation would have done it.

> Break up (or let the owners
> break up) those Class A's in Shreveport, Louisville and
> Buffalo and put a few Real (low NIF) 50 kWers in the
> Sunshine State, and a few more in metro Atlanta. Move one of
> the Class A's out of Nashville (how does a market of that
> size end up with two?).

In the east, it would be impossible to move statins around. For example, there are 1140´s and 1150´s all over FL that would not allow 1130 to move frm Shreveport (it's only A, and adirectional one)
>
> Whatever happened to those AM's that were supposed to be
> shut down when their operators got expanded-band licenses?

They had a many year window. Some are gone or going, like 1530 in Elizabeth, 540 in Costa Mesa.

>
> Why not expand the low end of the AM now that Morse Code
> distress messages
> on 500 kHz are as dated as the technology aboard the
> Titanic?

LF beacons only use code to identify, not to convey data. These beachons are definitely still in use.

> Make all the new stations A's or high-quality B's
> (equivalent of 5 kW ND with 2.0 mv/M protection at night).
>

The big issue is that it is pretty easy to move an FM from one channel to another when there is a reallocation that bumps other stations. The petitioner pays the new antenna and erection costs and miscellaneous costs like logos and letterheads, and that is it.

Move an AM, and if you move it up the idal, it loses coverage. Move it down, and the tower becomes short electrically and inefficient. Move a directional and the pattern may not work, or have to be changed, meaning different woer spacing and more land. The cost per directional station might be in the many hundreds of thousands.

All this to get something that is not particularly needed or wanted... bigger coverage AMs where there is really no need.

 

[FloridaBear1776]

Really No Need?

>
> > Break up (or let the owners
> > break up) those Class A's in Shreveport, Louisville and
> > Buffalo and put a few Real (low NIF) 50 kWers in the
> > Sunshine State, and a few more in metro Atlanta. Move one
> of
> > the Class A's out of Nashville (how does a market of that
> > size end up with two?).
>
> In the east, it would be impossible to move statins around.
> For example, there are 1140´s and 1150´s all over FL that
> would not allow 1130 to move frm Shreveport (it's only A,
> and adirectional one)
> >

1140 in Orlando is shaky, hanging on with brokered programming after Rumba killed its ratings. 1130 in Bartow is a tiny station with oldies. Why wouldn't
it make sense for someone to buy out the Bartow station, move the Orlando 1140 to 1130, knock out or knock down Shreveport, and deliver a relatively interference-free signal to more of that market than any station other than WDBO? (WFLF has a NIF ratio of almost 15 mv/m).


> > Whatever happened to those AM's that were supposed to be
> > shut down when their operators got expanded-band licenses?
>
>
> They had a many year window. Some are gone or going, like
> 1530 in Elizabeth, 540 in Costa Mesa.

1250 in Kansas City is hanging on... and I thought I read somewhere that they had basically received authority to continue indefinitely.

> > Why not expand the low end of the AM now that Morse Code
> > distress messages
> > on 500 kHz are as dated as the technology aboard the
> > Titanic?
>
> LF beacons only use code to identify, not to convey data.
> These beachons are definitely still in use.

I was talking about from 500 up... not all the way down to the beacons
below 450 kHz. 500, 510, 520, 530... those channels could be chopped up into maybe two dozen high quality AM's around the country.

>
> > Make all the new stations A's or high-quality B's
> > (equivalent of 5 kW ND with 2.0 mv/M protection at night).
>
> >
>
> The big issue is that it is pretty easy to move an FM from
> one channel to another when there is a reallocation that
> bumps other stations. The petitioner pays the new antenna
> and erection costs and miscellaneous costs like logos and
> letterheads, and that is it.
>
> Move an AM, and if you move it up the idal, it loses
> coverage. Move it down, and the tower becomes short
> electrically and inefficient. Move a directional and the
> pattern may not work, or have to be changed, meaning
> different woer spacing and more land. The cost per
> directional station might be in the many hundreds of
> thousands.
>
> All this to get something that is not particularly needed or
> wanted... bigger coverage AMs where there is really no need.
>
No need? Ask the folks in fast growing suburbs of major sunbelt markets who wake up every morning with hash over the AM dial and limited (Atlanta) or no (Phoenix, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Columbus GA, Birmingham or Tampa) access to news-talk formats until they're at the outskirts of the center city. Especially those unlucky souls who commute in from the north, which is the direction most of these cities seem to be growing towards.

Further, if there's no need for a lot of these AM services, why not enact policy that weeds out the weak and gives others a chance to get stronger and survive? One thousand strong AMs are better than 4,785 weak ones.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Really No Need?

>
> 1140 in Orlando is shaky, hanging on with brokered
> programming after Rumba killed its ratings. 1130 in Bartow
> is a tiny station with oldies. Why wouldn't
> it make sense for someone to buy out the Bartow station,
> move the Orlando 1140 to 1130, knock out or knock down
> Shreveport, and deliver a relatively interference-free
> signal to more of that market than any station other than
> WDBO? (WFLF has a NIF ratio of almost 15 mv/m).

First, 1130 would have to protect 1140 in Miami, a huge station that would not move. Then there are a number of 1120's, too. It might even have to protect 1110 in Tampa, a 10 kw operation. I do not think it would ever work.

> 1250 in Kansas City is hanging on... and I thought I read
> somewhere that they had basically received authority to
> continue indefinitely.

1250 in KC is a move of WREN from Topeka. I think this is a different scenario.
> >
> > LF beacons only use code to identify, not to convey data.
> > These beachons are definitely still in use.
>
> I was talking about from 500 up... not all the way down to
> the beacons
> below 450 kHz. 500, 510, 520, 530... those channels could be
> chopped up into maybe two dozen high quality AM's around the
> country.

And we would have a decade or two waiting for radios for what is essentially a dying band. There are quite a few beacons above 500. And you would only gain 4 channels, not enough to do much good.
> >
> No need? Ask the folks in fast growing suburbs of major
> sunbelt markets who wake up every morning with hash over the
> AM dial and limited (Atlanta) or no (Phoenix, Miami/Ft.
> Lauderdale, Orlando, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Columbus GA,
> Birmingham or Tampa) access to news-talk formats until
> they're at the outskirts of the center city. Especially
> those unlucky souls who commute in from the north, which is
> the direction most of these cities seem to be growing
> towards.

Bonneville moved news to FM. Nearly 80% of listening today is on FM, and the need in most markets for AM is limited to talk and news (viable only in top 10 markets) and sports. Talk will migrate to FM, news only requires about 10 to 15 signals nationally, and sports will live on AM for a while.

MArkets without good AMs can put the same formats on FM. Talk in central NJ or Akron is an example.
>
> Further, if there's no need for a lot of these AM services,
> why not enact policy that weeds out the weak and gives
> others a chance to get stronger and survive? One thousand
> strong AMs are better than 4,785 weak ones.

The only way to weed out stations is if they volunteerily go silent (can not make money, can not sell) or get sold to be silenced. WADO upgraded to 50 kw by buying 1290 on LI. WINS killed a Little Rock station to upgrade. Otherwise, as long as someowne can find something to do with them and has the money to do it, they will continue.

 

[FloridaBear1776]

Re: Really No Need?

> >
> > 1140 in Orlando is shaky, hanging on with brokered
> > programming after Rumba killed its ratings. 1130 in Bartow
>
> > is a tiny station with oldies. Why wouldn't
> > it make sense for someone to buy out the Bartow station,
> > move the Orlando 1140 to 1130, knock out or knock down
> > Shreveport, and deliver a relatively interference-free
> > signal to more of that market than any station other than
> > WDBO? (WFLF has a NIF ratio of almost 15 mv/m).
>
> First, 1130 would have to protect 1140 in Miami, a huge
> station that would not move. Then there are a number of
> 1120's, too. It might even have to protect 1110 in Tampa, a
> 10 kw operation. I do not think it would ever work.

I would envision a site WNW of Orlando,beaming ESE across the metro. The null for New York would fall over forest north of Leesburg. The shallower null for Miami would fall across Polk County, not part of the Orlando metro. Adjacent channel protection of 1140 from an 1130 would presumably be less than co-channel. 1110 in Tampa is another hanger on with brokered religion. Its on-air signal shows obvious signs of disrepair. Given that its transmitter site is in the middle of an area of apartment complexes and condos in St. Petersburg, I'm surprised the real estate isn't worth more than the station. Perhaps it is, and could be encouraged to go dark.

>
> > 1250 in Kansas City is hanging on... and I thought I read
> > somewhere that they had basically received authority to
> > continue indefinitely.
>
> 1250 in KC is a move of WREN from Topeka. I think this is a
> different scenario.

WREN received an X-band signal, which is still on the air, as though it were not even connected to 1250.

> > >
> > > LF beacons only use code to identify, not to convey
> data.
> > > These beachons are definitely still in use.
> >
> > I was talking about from 500 up... not all the way down to
>
> > the beacons
> > below 450 kHz. 500, 510, 520, 530... those channels could
> be
> > chopped up into maybe two dozen high quality AM's around
> the
> > country.
>
> And we would have a decade or two waiting for radios for
> what is essentially a dying band. There are quite a few
> beacons above 500. And you would only gain 4 channels, not
> enough to do much good.

If they were targeted at the Sunbelt markets that got screwed out of Class A's
because they received population after 1940, they would do a lot of good.
> > >
> > No need? Ask the folks in fast growing suburbs of major
> > sunbelt markets who wake up every morning with hash over
> the
> > AM dial and limited (Atlanta) or no (Phoenix, Miami/Ft.
> > Lauderdale, Orlando, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Columbus
> GA,
> > Birmingham or Tampa) access to news-talk formats until
> > they're at the outskirts of the center city. Especially
> > those unlucky souls who commute in from the north, which
> is
> > the direction most of these cities seem to be growing
> > towards.
>
> Bonneville moved news to FM. Nearly 80% of listening today
> is on FM, and the need in most markets for AM is limited to
> talk and news (viable only in top 10 markets) and sports.
> Talk will migrate to FM, news only requires about 10 to 15
> signals nationally, and sports will live on AM for a while.
>
I suspect that if Bonneville had the alternative of a full-market AM signal on the low end of the dial for WTOP, it would not have gone to FM and blown up
a format in the process.

> The only way to weed out stations is if they volunteerily go
> silent (can not make money, can not sell) or get sold to be
> silenced. WADO upgraded to 50 kw by buying 1290 on LI. WINS
> killed a Little Rock station to upgrade. Otherwise, as long
> as someowne can find something to do with them and has the
> money to do it, they will continue.
>
The policy needs to be tilted more toward encouraging that process. Tax certificates have been suggested in the past. One irony is that consolidation has discouraged turn-offs like KSYG and downgrades like WOWO by putting similar stations in the hands of organizations that can always find something else to cut back, to keep the signal going with marginal revenue.

 

[Kent]

> Madison alone has a population of 501,774
> The Metro area has a population of over 520,000

It's also a top-100 market.

 

[radionut987]

> Markets without an AM that fully covers it include
> Washington, DC, Miami, FL, Tallahassee, FL., Traverse City,
> MI, etc. What happened is that these cities had limited
> population in the 30-s and 40-s and did not get big signals
> (DC was just more compact, Miami was only one county in the
> metro) that covered the expansion of the market.

Tallahassee? Traverse City? Last time I checked, both of those markets were ranked somewhere in the 100-200 Arbitron market range. Those markets aren't considered large by any stretch of the imagination. But, you're right, Tallahassee itself doesn't have any AM signals that are strong. 1070 has the most wattage at 10,000 watts with WFRF, but must sign off at sundown.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Really No Need?

>
> I would envision a site WNW of Orlando,beaming ESE across
> the metro. The null for New York would fall over forest
> north of Leesburg.

That would violate about 3 protections in Mexico. Any relicensed operation has to conform to new protection requirements.

> The shallower null for Miami would fall
> across Polk County, not part of the Orlando metro.

The amount of radiation towards Miami would be less than a couple of hundred watts.

> Adjacent
> channel protection of 1140 from an 1130 would presumably be
> less than co-channel. 1110 in Tampa is another hanger on
> with brokered religion. Its on-air signal shows obvious
> signs of disrepair. Given that its transmitter site is in
> the middle of an area of apartment complexes and condos in
> St. Petersburg, I'm surprised the real estate isn't worth
> more than the station. Perhaps it is, and could be
> encouraged to go dark.

You are talking about a station that is worth about $5 million, and land, antenna system and buy outs of other stations and legal for at least another $6 million. $11 million for an AM in Orlando, where the good syndicated programming is already owned by Clear or Cox and there is not much purpose in it.
>
> WREN received an X-band signal, which is still on the air,
> as though it were not even connected to 1250.

The FCC has been fairly liberal about the 5 year cancellation after difinitive air date. A number of stations are now dark, and some never had an associated low band AM to begin with.
>
> If they were targeted at the Sunbelt markets that got
> screwed out of Class A's
> because they received population after 1940, they would do a
> lot of good.

There are very few sunbelt markets that don't have at least one or two good signals. Orlando has WDBO and 740. Phoenix has 550 and 620. Atlanta has 750, and even that is not great due to conductivity. Jacksonville hactually has several... even 1460 is a decent signal, and 690, 600 and 930 are excellent. Tampa has several, including 620, 970 and 1250. Austin has 590. Dallas has 570, 820 and 1080. Albuquerque has 770, but it is over radioed and needs another AM like Grand Junction does. Denver has several, including 560, 630 and 850. In many cases, some of the good AMs are religious now becasue there is just not much that the 4th or 5th deep AM, even if it has a signal, can do that is viable.
> >
> I suspect that if Bonneville had the alternative of a
> full-market AM signal on the low end of the dial for WTOP,
> it would not have gone to FM and blown up
> a format in the process.

The format they blew up billed about 1/10th of what the News format did. And they had a good secondary use for WTOP AM, a very DC specific format in association withthe Washington Post that will probably bill much more than the nuked format ever did.
> >
> The policy needs to be tilted more toward encouraging that
> process. Tax certificates have been suggested in the past.
> One irony is that consolidation has discouraged turn-offs
> like KSYG and downgrades like WOWO by putting similar
> stations in the hands of organizations that can always find
> something else to cut back, to keep the signal going with
> marginal revenue.

A tax certificate is only good if you have other taxes to offset. If you are an owenr of a single bad AM, the tax certificate is of no use. But someoen else may think they can do something with the station and you sell it and recover all or part of the investment.
>

 

[954]

Re: Really No Need?

> No need? Ask the folks in fast growing suburbs of major
> sunbelt markets who wake up every morning with hash over the
> AM dial and limited (Atlanta) or no (Phoenix, Miami/Ft.
> Lauderdale, Orlando, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Columbus GA,
> Birmingham or Tampa) access to news-talk formats until
> they're at the outskirts of the center city.

Miami? A bit of hyperbole?

I just looked at radio-locator. Three news and/or talk
stations (Rush - Air America - Salem) cover ALL of
populated Dade and Broward north of Kendall with a local
daytime signal and two of those cover the rest. Plus
WFTL's local or distant signal covers all of that area.

That's two to four news/talk choices for everyone in the
Miami market. Not counting brokered or ethnic or shock jocks.

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
Prairie Home Companion Coming To Miami in Feb! South Florida Radio Pages (since 1995)</P>

 

[954]

City of Miami is not the same as Miami-Dade County or the Miami market. Fortunately.

> You are incorrect. Miami is officially bi-lingual with two
> official languages.

City of Miami is not the same as Miami-Dade County or the Miami market.

Fortunately.

> > The foreign language, of course, is English...
> >
> > The majority population there being Anglos, isolated from
> > the mainstream of Miami-Dade, who won't learn the official
>
> > language of their metro ;-)


73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
Prairie Home Companion Coming To Miami in Feb! South Florida Radio Pages (since 1995)</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Really No Need?

> > No need? Ask the folks in fast growing suburbs of major
> > sunbelt markets who wake up every morning with hash over
> the
> > AM dial and limited (Atlanta) or no (Phoenix, Miami/Ft.
> > Lauderdale, Orlando, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Columbus
> GA,
> > Birmingham or Tampa) access to news-talk formats until
> > they're at the outskirts of the center city.
>
> Miami? A bit of hyperbole?
>
> I just looked at radio-locator. Three news and/or talk
> stations (Rush - Air America - Salem) cover ALL of
> populated Dade and Broward north of Kendall with a local
> daytime signal and two of those cover the rest. Plus
> WFTL's local or distant signal covers all of that area.

WFTL's daytime 5 mv-m barely hits the northern part of the city of Ft. Lauderdale, or, about half the population of Broward.

Keep in mind extensive studies have shown that in noisy metros (mot of the ones with 500,000 population or more qualify) the minimum signal needed is around 8 to 10 mv/m, and in some martkets, like LA, it is higher. There will be no listening outside those contours, which are the innermost Radio Locator curves shrunken by about 15%.

Both WINZ and WIOD have fullday signals of 5 mv/m over the market, but just barely for 940. At night, 940 is a bad, bad signal.

 

[davideduardo]

> > Markets without an AM that fully covers it include
> > Washington, DC, Miami, FL, Tallahassee, FL., Traverse
> City,
> > MI, etc. What happened is that these cities had limited
> > population in the 30-s and 40-s and did not get big
> signals
> > (DC was just more compact, Miami was only one county in
> the
> > metro) that covered the expansion of the market.
>
> Tallahassee? Traverse City? Last time I checked, both of
> those markets were ranked somewhere in the 100-200 Arbitron
> market range.

I just wanted to show that even many smaller metros have no good AMs. The good allocations were mostly gone by the mid-30s.

> Those markets aren't considered large by any
> stretch of the imagination. But, you're right, Tallahassee
> itself doesn't have any AM signals that are strong. 1070
> has the most wattage at 10,000 watts with WFRF, but must
> sign off at sundown.

In most markets, a full B or C will outcover nearly every AM known to man except the handful of full 1-A clears and a handful of nice low band regionals, like WNAX, KSJB, WMT, KFYR, etc.
>

 

[peppertree]

There are no clear channel stations in Florida, which is one of the top five states.

> Tucson, Riverside, Fresno, Sacramento, Austin and even
> Houston are late-growth cities that did not get decent
> stations on AM.
>
> Look even at Washington, DC. Not one AM covers the Capital
> market fully. That is because nobody in the 30-s
> contemplated urban sprawl and suburbs.
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>

 

[davideduardo]

> There are no clear channel stations in Florida, which is one
> of the top five states.

But it was not a top 5 state in the 30's, when the current clears were difinitively allocated.

And there are many states without a 1A non directional clear. Washingon, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, the Dakotas, Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, Maryland, New Jersey, Delaware, Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, South Carolina, North Carolina, Arkansas, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Indiana are the ones that come to mind. Texas has only 2, while NY has 1180, 660, 770, 880. Illinois has 670, 780 and 790. These allocations fit the population in the 30's.

Yet many states have what was previously called 1-B allocations, like WBT in Charlotte, or WINZ in Miami or WBAL in Baltimore or KEX in Portland.

The fact is that, as long as a station has decent coverage of the metro, the fact that it is not a non directional 50 kw station is irrelevant. The only full clears in the US are 640-670, 700, 720, 750-780, 820-840, 870-890, 1020-1040, 1100, 1120, 1160, 1180, 1200, 1210. That is only 24 by my count... definitly not enough to go around.

 

[RockManAC]

> Madison, WI. Most of the FMs aren't even in Madison. They're
> suburban stations targeting Madison.

WIBA? WIBA-FM? WTDY?

-A<P ID="signature">______________

</P>

 

[JeremyAndrews]

> > Madison, WI. Most of the FMs aren't even in Madison.
> They're
> > suburban stations targeting Madison.
>
> WIBA? WIBA-FM? WTDY?
>
> -A
>
nevermind<P ID="signature">______________

</P>

 

[954]

Really No Need...

> > I just looked at radio-locator. Three news and/or talk
> > stations (Rush - Air America - Salem) cover ALL of
> > populated Dade and Broward north of Kendall with a local
> > daytime signal and two of those cover the rest. Plus
> > WFTL's local or distant signal covers all of that area.
>
> WFTL's daytime 5 mv-m barely hits the northern part of the
> city of Ft. Lauderdale, or, about half the population of
> Broward.

Comes in fine here, in mid-FTL, on a portable radio or
clock radio.

You blatantly missed the point.

And that's #4 for the city of Miami -- after your
choice of WINZ, WIOD, or WKAT.

"no ... access to news-talk formats until they're
at the outskirts of the center city" -- hah! I don't
believe that for a minute.

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
Prairie Home Companion Coming To Miami in Feb! South Florida Radio Pages (since 1995)</P>

 

[FloridaBear1776]

Re: Really No Need?

>
> There are very few sunbelt markets that don't have at least
> one or two good signals. ...Jacksonville actually has several...
> even 1460 is a decent signal, and 690, 600 and 930 are
> excellent.

None of those stations cover the CITY (county) of Jacksonville (Duval)
at night. WOKV's NIF is WAY up there, and it is interfered with on the north side. 930 is the best of the bunch, but it too has problems in the north and in fast-growing Nassau County.

>Tampa has several, including 620, 970 and 1250.

All of which null north or just west of north, which is where the population is growing over the next 5-10 years thanks to a new toll road.

 

[KeithE]

> > Metro Phoenix (population 3.5 million, market #15) has only
> > one full-time 50 kW station - KMIK 1580, and it's Radio
> > Disney. A total waste of a blowtorch.
>
> It is not a blowtorch. It is on 1580, highly directinal, and
> does not even cover the local market. On the other hand, 550
> KFYI and 620 KTAR are really good signals. Remember, 5 kw on
> 550 is about as good at 100 kw on 1580.

Isn't the definition of "blowtorch" any full-time 50 kW station regardless of whether it's directional or not?

> > Outside of KFYI 550 (5 kW days/1 kW nights non-directional)
> > and KTAR 620 (5 kW fulltime, slightly directional at night),
> > there are no other AMs here that cover the entire market
> > completely. The AMs here were designed to cover the metro
> > Phoenix of 1960, which was about half the land area and 1/4
> > the population of the metro Phoenix of 2005.
>
> Actually, they were not designed to cover the smaller
> city... the market simply did not get any decent signals in
> the 30-s when the major signals of today were handed out.

There was no way that Phoenix could have received a 1-A allocation back then since the market wasn't big enough to justify it, but stations were allowed to upgrade.

With a metro population of under 100,000 at the time, Phoenix couldn't support any more than the two stations it had in the '30s - KTAR 620 and KOY 1390. The FCC did allow KOY to move to 550 in 1940 - a much better spot on the dial - and they allowed a daytime power increase to 5000 watts (it had been 1000 watts fulltime on 1390).

That same year, KPHO came on the air on 1200 (1230 after the NARBA frequency shift) with 250 watts. It, too, was allowed to upgrade its signal and move to 910 with 5000 watts fulltime (it's now KFYI 550). This was in 1949. Even with its highly directional nighttime pattern, it covered the metro Phoenix of the '50s and '60s well. That's not the case today on that frequency (now KGME).

Most of the remaining stations came on the air between 1946 and 1964. Of the 19 AMs on the air in 1965, 9 were daytimers and 6 more ran 500 watts or less at night. They apparently did at least somewhat well (only one went dark and it was one of the Mesa stations that didn't serve Phoenix) and all but a couple covered the entire market at night, which was a 15- or 20-mile radius from downtown Phoenix in that era. The current Phoenix market is roughly a 40-mile radius from downtown.

As an example, take 1230. It was KRIZ between 1950 and 1978 and KOY now. KRIZ was a Top-40 powerhouse in the '60s despite its 250-watt nighttime signal. KRIZ did cover the market pretty well from the near-southwest side of the city, something that KOY's current 1000 watts can't do. The area is too big now.

We may have to agree to disagree, but I stand by what I said.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Keith Elster on 01/22/06 07:04 PM.</FONT></P>