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louisNatl asks, What Will Save the AM Band?

Re: Now, AM fan C. Crane weighs-in...

vsa said:
David, if HD radio will not provide reliable reception outside the 10 mV/m contour, what good is it? Honestly. It merely duplicates an already strong, clear, static-free signal. You are always talking about the need for more AM stations to have a viable signal. HD radio makes them all less viable.

Maybe I was not clear: the analog signal does not get listening in metros outside of the 10 mv/m signal. My discussion had noting to do with HD in this case. If HD can be detected at the 6 mv/ contour, that is BEYOND the usable contour of the analog signal based on actual Arbitron listening locations.

I know you'll say there is no such animal out there. Maybe not, but eccentric Leonard Kahn's CAM-D system seems to come awful close. You may hate him, but don't hate his technology. [/quote]

That "eccentric" killed music AM radio. So you look to the guy who made AM second rate and second place for solutions?
 
semoochie, first right then wrong:
I'm not particularly computer literate. I also agree that anything put over the internet isn't going to have the same sound as the actual product.

Internet audio can sound much better then anything on broadcast radio, even HD radio. Higher bitrates then HD broadcast radio with the same aacPlus codec used by HD radio are already on the internet, and internet stations are switching to the better codec. Meanwhile many HD stations are lowering their bitrate and quality to "shoe horn in" more HD2, HD3, stations, add data and pay to listen HD streams.
 
DavidEduardo said:
vsa said:
David, if HD radio will not provide reliable reception outside the 10 mV/m contour, what good is it? Honestly. It merely duplicates an already strong, clear, static-free signal. You are always talking about the need for more AM stations to have a viable signal. HD radio makes them all less viable.

Maybe I was not clear: the analog signal does not get listening in metros outside of the 10 mv/m signal. My discussion had noting to do with HD in this case. If HD can be detected at the 6 mv/ contour, that is BEYOND the usable contour of the analog signal based on actual Arbitron listening locations.

I know you'll say there is no such animal out there. Maybe not, but eccentric Leonard Kahn's CAM-D system seems to come awful close. You may hate him, but don't hate his technology.
Eduardo:
That "eccentric" killed music AM radio. So you look to the guy who made AM second rate and second place for solutions?

The inventor of AM stereo "killed music AM radio"?
Another incorrect and totally irrational statement.
I do not want to argue about MR. Kahn, but it is unfair that you keep attacking him because you live in a fantasy world of your own creation.
Kahn's AM stereo system was on the air, inexpensive, totally compatible with existing AM radios, and working well years before Motorola and others came up with their AM stereo systems. The delay to adopt AM stereo, and therefore the disadvantage to AM radio was caused by others who dragged things out while developed their own proprietary AM stereo systems, which were so complex they required special approval.
In the meantime the Kahn system could have been on the air, everywhere, years sooner because it was totally compatible with existing AM rules.
The same situation and delay exists with proprietary, expensive, short range, problematic HD radio, which is the new c-quam. Meanwhile totally compatible, reliable digital FMeXtra www.dreinc.com is available and easily could be on the air everywhere. More FMeXtra radios would quickly be available. They are much simpler to make, more reliable,and not proprietary.
 
You won't listen to anything below 96kbps in what codec? All codecs are not created equal. Take an mp3 stream at 96. Windows Media sounds better at 64. AAC+ sounds better yet at 48. Actually, AAC+ at 32kbps ain't bad. I've heard some crappy 128kbps mp3 streams and some pretty good 64kbps mp3 streams. QC and processing make a huge difference.

I'll point you to a good sounding 96 kbps Internet stream. Open iTunes and go to the "radio" menu near the top left. From there, go into the "jazz" menu. Then listen to DI.fm Modern Jazz at 96 kbps.

Also try this: Go to the same iTunes "radio" menu. The go to "folk." And check FolkAlley.com at 128 kbps.
 
semoochie, first right then wrong:
I'm not particularly computer literate. I also agree that anything put over the internet isn't going to have the same sound as the actual product.

Internet audio can sound much better then anything on broadcast radio, even HD radio. Higher bitrates then HD broadcast radio with the same aacPlus codec used by HD radio are already on the internet, and internet stations are switching to the better codec. Meanwhile many HD stations are lowering their bitrate and quality to "shoe horn in" more HD2, HD3, stations, add data and additional "pay to listen" HD streams.
http://www.tuner2.com/
 
SUPERCASTER said:
The inventor of AM stereo "killed music AM radio"?
Another incorrect and totally irrational statement.

No, totally correct In 1978, I had "order #1" for two of the competing AM stereo systems. I hoped, if either of the two were selected, to have the first authorized US AM statiion. I even had our ad agency prepare a campaign to promote it.

Then, Kahn sued. AM stero was delayed half a decade. AM listening went form over 50% of the total to about 25%. It was too late by the time the FCC made a "decision" for AM music radio to return to strength. The legal gyrations of Kahn sealed the coffin.

I do not want to argue about MR. Kahn, but it is unfair that you keep attacking him because you live in a fantasy world of your own creation.

Kahn's lawsuits slowed down AM stereo at a critical point in time. He did the industry no good, irresepective of whether his system was technically the best or not.

Kahn's AM stereo system was on the air, inexpensive, totally compatible with existing AM radios, and working well years before Motorola and others came up with their AM stereo systems.

But it was not authorized for use. When Kahn saw his chances of prevailing via the selection process, he sued. It's the American way.

The delay to adopt AM stereo, and therefore the disadvantage to AM radio was caused by others who dragged things out while developed their own proprietary AM stereo systems, which were so complex they required special approval.

ANY system required approval. The Kahn test station was in MEXICO: XETRA, Tijuana. The FCC had all of them... anyone who wanted to create a system... submit design proposals.

In the meantime the Kahn system could have been on the air, everywhere, years sooner because it was totally compatible with existing AM rules.
The same situation and delay exists with proprietary, expensive, short range, problematic HD radio, which is the new c-quam. Meanwhile totally compatible, reliable digital FMeXtra www.dreinc.com is available and easily could be on the air everywhere. More FMeXtra radios would quickly be available. They are much simpler to make, more reliable,and not proprietary.

No manufacturer is going to do AM digital with a system that is not part of the FM stystem. AM enhancements do not sell radios, so there is no reason to add cost of another license, components, etc. AM is of no interest to radio manufacturers which is why the NAB insisted that it would not support iBiquity's system unless it also had AM. Any AM system has to "ride on the back" of FM systems. Less than 20% of radio listening is to AM, and the receiver manufacturers know it... and understand that A listeners are not trend setters, early adopters or innovators (marketing lifestyle classifications)

And all of this AM trouble could have been significantly reduced if hte FCC had approved a system in the late 70's instead of into the 80's. Thanks, Mr. Kahn.
 
EbolaMonkey said:
You won't listen to anything below 96kbps in what codec? All codecs are not created equal. Take an mp3 stream at 96. Windows Media sounds better at 64. AAC+ sounds better yet at 48. Actually, AAC+ at 32kbps ain't bad. I've heard some crappy 128kbps mp3 streams and some pretty good 64kbps mp3 streams. QC and processing make a huge difference.

I'll point you to a good sounding 96 kbps Internet stream.  Open iTunes and go to the "radio" menu near the top left.  From there, go into the "jazz" menu.  Then listen to DI.fm Modern Jazz at 96 kbps. 

Also try this:  Go to the same iTunes "radio" menu.  The go to "folk."  And check FolkAlley.com at 128 kbps.

I believe both stations use Orban's Optimod PC for audio processing before encoding. Both sound great.

http://www.orban.com/products/streaming/optimod-pc1100/

BTW, iTunes radio only supports MP3 streaming.

Install Winamp 5 or Orban's AAC+ plug-in for Windows Media Player at Tuner2:

http://www.tuner2.com./

While there, try Folk Alley's 64kbps AAC+ stream. Just for kicks, see how good SkyFM/DI's Modern Jazz sounds at a mere 24kbps in AAC+.
 
BTW, iTunes radio only supports MP3 streaming.

Install Winamp 5 or Orban's AAC+ plug-in for Windows Media Player at Tuner2:

http://www.tuner2.com./

While there, try Folk Alley's 64kbps AAC+ stream. Just for kicks, see how good SkyFM/DI's Modern Jazz sounds at a mere 24kbps in AAC+.

Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely do this on my home computer later today or tomorrow.
 
EbolaMonkey said:
BTW, iTunes radio only supports MP3 streaming.

Install Winamp 5 or Orban's AAC+ plug-in for Windows Media Player at Tuner2:

http://www.tuner2.com./

While there, try Folk Alley's 64kbps AAC+ stream. Just for kicks, see how good SkyFM/DI's Modern Jazz sounds at a mere 24kbps in AAC+.

Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely do this on my home computer later today or tomorrow.


Also, check out a YouTube video on how you can listen to web-based radio in your car with certain phones. It's a how-to. The video talks about and compares to HD radio:

http://tuner2.blogspot.com/
 
David Eduardo wrote: "The Kahn test station was in MEXICO: XETRA, Tijuana."

That was as early as circa 1960. Blame the FCC for turning Kahn down back then because they wanted FM to get a leg-up over AM!
 
rwagoner said:
hipporadio said:
[From C Crane]: 'AM HD reception was poor no matter what (same as with all the HD radios we've tested) - though it did pick up one HD AM station with a strong signal [710]."

My HDT-1 gets San Diego's KOGO from Southern Los Angeles (near Long Beach) in HD fairly stable...

Hearing “HD” on 600 KOGO in Long Beach isn’t exactly an illustrative reception testimonial! It’s near the lowest-edge of the AM band with 5kw - further-boosted by a DA and salt-water path right toward the location of your HDT-1. I remember sitting poolside at the Hyatt at I-405 and Jamboree in Irvine hearing KOGO on a Sangean DT-200V “Walkman-style” radio sounding every-bit as “local” as any LA 50kw “clear”! I guess the C Crane HDT-1 “LA field test” occurred further inland.

vsa said:
DavidEduardo said:
KOGO-AM 600 has a 5 mV/m signal in the area you speak of, San Pedro. I would hope the HD radio reception there would be much better than "fairly stable".

Actually, in larger metros, 5 mv/m is below the level that gets audience as it is subject to man made interference and general noise. Most LA stations get very little listening outside the 10 mv/m contour... and most is in the 15 mv/m areas.

DavidEduardo said:
vsa said:
If HD radio will not provide reliable reception outside the 10 mV/m contour, what good is it? Honestly. It merely duplicates an already strong, clear, static-free signal. You are always talking about the need for more AM stations to have a viable signal. HD radio makes them all less viable.

The analog signal does not get listening in metros outside of the 10 mv/m signal. My discussion had noting to do with HD in this case. If HD can be detected at the 6 mv/ contour, that is BEYOND the usable contour of the analog signal based on actual Arbitron listening locations.

I know you'll say there is no such animal out there. Maybe not, but eccentric Leonard Kahn's CAM-D system seems to come awful close. You may hate him, but don't hate his technology.

That "eccentric" killed music AM radio. So you look to the guy who made AM second rate and second place for solutions?

David... Your posts have proven you to be the ultimate industry “apologist” and thus, have been somewhat entertaining – but your contention that AM signals are “irrelevant” beyond 10 mv/m; and that “eccentric” Leonard Kahn killed “music AM radio” is outrageous and your furthest venture into fantasy yet!

I was not a fan of ISB AM-stereo, and was on-record in the mid-80s as an owner/operator of stations [two on AM] supporting the Harris system. Nonetheless, I was happy that “preference” [albeit Motorola C-QUAM] seemed to emerge. Granted, Kahn appeared to be a “sore loser”, but very-little of his misadventure was substantive in that medium’s failure – and certainly NOT in the “marketing” arena... Incidentally, that top-of-mind “boggle” is certain to be displaced in broadcast history by the ultimate fate that awaits iNiquity IBOC “HD Radio”!

Earth calling David Eduardo... AM radio’s “second rate” status was the result of a consumer electronics industry that woefully-ignored the quality of AM receiver sections – and a radio industry living-up to its obsession to pursue instant gratification at the total expense of future gratification. And what became “first place for solutions” – and more-importantly – WHY? To believe your age and background would give one cause to question your position on this topic at that time. Where was David in 1975? ...There was certainly no shortage of AM radio [“legal” and “not-so...”] in MEXICO!

Back to your favorite “eclectic”, Leonard Kahn... He appears to have been guilty of the unpardonable sin of wishing [based on his “vision”] to advance a popular broadcast medium whose operators were too busy raking in the spoils of their contemporary endeavors to appreciate. By the time their intoxication subsided, they were face-to-face with the “hangover” of having waited too long. With little remorse for their missed opportunity; they merely popped an aspirin and reaffixed their affections on the FM band. This sounds like a dreadfully-similar pelude to what now awaits “HD Radio”.

semoochie said:
I can't tell the difference between 48 and 96! The HD2s sound great!

After the onset of “middle-age” and years of Rock 'n Roll via headphones – I [still] easily can. I’m sorry that you can’t, semochie – but that’s what MDs specializing in the ear are for... Should I Email you a list from the Yellow Pages?

SUPERCASTER said:
Internet audio can sound much better then anything on broadcast radio, even HD radio. Higher bitrates then HD broadcast radio with the same aacPlus codec used by HD radio are already on the internet...

EXACTLY! I finally realized this when I got my hands on my first portable WiFi internet audio receiver [the Revo Pico] which easily accesses these streams and plugs right in to my primary home A/V system.

hipporadio said:
...Most “serious” services are streamed from 64-128 kbps in mp3 and WMA, and 128 kbps WMA easily-betters the quality of FM “HD”. Forget about any urge to compare AM “HD” IF your radio can even manage to acquire it - we’re talking “late 90s low-bandwidth RealAudio” quality here [I’d MUCH-RATHER listen to a well-transmitted ANALOG SIGNAL on a decent AM receiver]!
 
hipporadio said:
,David... Your posts have proven you to be the ultimate industry “apologist” and thus, have been somewhat entertaining – but your contention that AM signals are “irrelevant” beyond 10 mv/m; and that “eccentric” Leonard Kahn killed “music AM radio” is outrageous and your furthest venture into fantasy yet!

1. I have done, as have many others, significant research on listening locations vs. signal strength in a variety of market sizes. What we find, strictly using at home and at work listening which is identified by ZIP code, is that in urban areas nearly all of the reported listening is within the 10 mv/m contour. In particularly noisy or dense metros, like New York and LA, the bar is even higher... around 15 mv/m.

The term I use is "usable" which I intend to mean "a listener will actually tune to a station regularly because the signal is clean and free of interference." If listeners outside the 10 mv/m do not use stations in these metro areas, yet they do within that contour, the only variable is the signal. We also find that there are similar restraints on FM station use... 80% in te 70 dbu and 15% within the 64 to 69 dbu contours. Outside the 64, there is very little at home and at work listening, and that is 70% of all radio listening.

2. AM stereo. The fact is, and much was said at NAB and other conventions in the late 70's about this, that the delay in having an approved FM Stereo system killed AM music as an ongoing opportunity. In 1978, about half of all listening, and lots of music listening, was on AM. By 1983, for example, AM had lost nearly half its shares. The single reason for the delay of AM stereo was Kahn's legal gyrations.

I was not a fan of ISB AM-stereo, and was on-record in the mid-80s as an owner/operator of stations [two on AM] supporting the Harris system.

As was I. I had, in fact, signed order #1 for the Harris system for my WQII. By the time any system was approved, it was too late.

Earth calling David Eduardo... AM radio’s “second rate” status was the result of a consumer electronics industry that woefully-ignored the quality of AM receiver sections – and a radio industry living-up to its obsession to pursue instant gratification at the total expense of future gratification. And what became “first place for solutions” – and more-importantly – WHY? To believe your age and background would give one cause to question your position on this topic at that time.

In the 70's when FM was "taking over" receivers were fairly decent. AM was killed by FM, not by receivers.

Where was David in 1975? ...There was certainly no shortage of AM radio [“legal” and “not-so...”] in MEXICO!

In 1975 I had #2 rated WQII, an AM AC in the USA where I was GM, Chief Operator and ran programming. I wanted very badly to be in stereo.

By 1979, I realized that AM would be dying as a music medium and moved our FM from Beautiful Music (where it was the market's FM revenue leader) to a contemporary format... before that move, FM had a 14 share in the market, and a year later, FM had a 55 share of the market. As FMs covered the major format options, AM was left behind.

Back to your favorite “eclectic”, Leonard Kahn... He appears to have been guilty of the unpardonable sin of wishing [based on his “vision”] to advance a popular broadcast medium whose operators were too busy raking in the spoils of their contemporary endeavors to appreciate.

I can't fault his motives. But his method, which delayed and essentially killed the opportunity to make AM useful for music, killed AM as a music medium. Were it not for Rush and Randy, AM in rated markets would be all but dead.

I listen extensively to the third generation HD radio in my car, and it sounds superior to analog, whether it be AM or FM. And the AM, if properly processed, sounds excellent.
 
David,

By the early-to-mid-70's, the AM band was hardly cool among younger radio listeners. Stereo was only part of the equation. High spot loads on AM and innovative new music formats in the early years on the FM dial were stronger factors. By the 80's, these young people had aged into the money demo. If the whole AM band had gone stereo en masse by the end of 1978, consider that it would still take years to get a significant number of AM Stereo receivers sold, it still would have been way too late.

It's interesting to watch as history is already repeating itself. In recent years, all of radio has now become too uncool in the pre-money demo. And like AM Stereo before, HD radio has arrived to the party way way way too late. And as we are discovering, not being DIGITAL is far from being the whole problem.
 
DavidEduardo said:
AM stereo... much was said at NAB and other conventions in the late 70's about this, that the delay in having an approved FM Stereo system killed AM music as an ongoing opportunity... The single reason for the delay of AM stereo was Kahn's legal gyrations.

Well there’s the perfect source for justifying real-world consumer behavior – the NAB :D ...And don’t let me forget to grab that rag at the supermarket check-out [the one that quotes the 500lb woman blaming a heart-attack on her new Body-by-Jake] for my authoritative lesson in why the public “does what is does” ::) Seriously David [the absolute integrity of the trade-association aside], Kahn’s “legal gyrations” commenced nearly a decade laterafter the FCC’s reversal of their “marketplace decision” policy – when they finally made Motorola “the man”! The AM-stereo “battle” didn’t even heat-up until the “war” was nearly-over!

DavidEduardo said:
In the 70's when FM was "taking over" [AM? receivers were fairly decent[/i]. AM was killed by FM, not by receivers.


Oh David P-L-E-A-S-E! I’m 50 - and I’ll guess you’re a bit further along – enough to recall the history of home consumer electronics better than I. AM sections were anything but “decent” in the mid-to-late 70s [as you implied]. The Pac-rim invasion of “component stereo” had barely gassed-up [by about 1972] before AM sections found their way into the dumpster. Many engineers explained it away as a cost-cutting integration decision... Discrete AM components and tuned R.F. and I.F. circuits found their way into all-in-one LSIs costing under a dime – understandable, given the competitive and emerging market for that new phenomenon known as “stereo FM”.

My first home FM-stereo receiver [purchased from lawn-mowing money] was a 1970 Realistic STA65B from Radio Shack. I could finally see the little red “stereo” light – but I could also continue to easily-receive and enjoy in comparable mono fidelity my longstanding AM station choices. In fact, I still found myself revisiting them often, because that receiver allowed me to do so with a minimum amount of discomfort. Later that year, my uncle purchased a Pioneer-made store-branded stereo receiver from Allied Radio. It also had an outstanding AM section; but Pioneer’s attention to AM detail would quickly-fade. My next advance in home-stereo would come in 1974 – a pair of Pioneer separates including the legendary TX-9100 tuner [debuted in 1973] – “legendary” on FM, but nearly unusable on AM... Shocking – the difference in AM performance from the same manufacturer within just three years! In 1980, I went thru this ritual for a third time – attempting to reclaim decent AM in the process. The reality was so pathetic that I chose an FM-ONLY model from McIntosh... My GE SuperRadio would have to serve my AM interest!

Today, my A/V system is anchored by a Sony ES-series receiver. It’s rather amusing that AM “misery” now seems to enjoy company in the surround-sound audio-meets-video age – FM on this unit joins the AM band in the abyss. Even more telling is that twist of the knob on my original [and surviving] 37-year-old Realistic receiver... Compare those two AM radios, and you’ll fully-appreciate the proper perspective, David :'(

vsa said:
It's interesting to watch as history is already repeating itself. In recent years, all of radio has now become too uncool in the pre-money demo. And like AM Stereo before, HD radio has arrived to the party way – way - way too late. And as we are discovering, not being DIGITAL is far from being the whole problem.

B.I.N.G.O. !

vsa wins the Wednesday door-prize for observing that “history can't resist a rerun” with that post!
 
I don't have the figures but most of Salem OR listening is to Portland stations which put less than 70 and sometimes 60dbu into the listening area. That's about 200,000 people. There must be numerous other situations like that. The FCC chose Magnavox as THE AM stereo system in 1980. IF the other proponents had not said anything and left the decision to stand, improvements would probably have been made on the system and it would have had a viable chance to succeed at a time when there was still significant listening to the AM band and receiver manufacturers would have been likely to respond with better sounding equipment. Leonard Kahn simply put the final nail in the coffin. The FCC was not trying to give FM the upper hand 50 years ago but rather trying to save it! Stations were worth almost nothing and were routinely donated or had their licenses returned to the FCC. I can't blame the FCC.
 
I meant to also mention that I have no doubt that internet audio can sound better than HD radio. What I was trying to say was that I didn't think posting an HD audio file online would sound the SAME as the original product because of conflicting codecs so it wouldn't be an accurate representation of the original.
 
semoochie said:
I don't have the figures but most of Salem OR listening is to Portland stations which put less than 70 and sometimes 60dbu into the listening area.

Salem and Marion County are part of the Portland market. There is no Salem book, and the major Portland FMs 70 to the edge of Salem itself and put a 64 dbu beyond the city (and outside the market). The whole county is 300 thousand people; Salem itslef is about a third of that.

As I said, the 70 picks up about 80% of the listening, on average. Unique formats cause listeners who demand the format to put up with more nose and more signal issues, but the fact is that about 95% of listening is in the 64 dbu or greater area.

The FCC chose Magnavox as THE AM stereo system in 1980. IF the other proponents had not said anything and left the decision to stand, improvements would probably have been made on the system and it would have had a viable chance to succeed at a time when there was still significant listening to the AM band and receiver manufacturers would have been likely to respond with better sounding equipment. Leonard Kahn simply put the final nail in the coffin. The FCC was not trying to give FM the upper hand 50 years ago but rather trying to save it! Stations were worth almost nothing and were routinely donated or had their licenses returned to the FCC. I can't blame the FCC.

You have a bunch of very good points here. The FCC delayed, partly due to Kahn's petitions, and then the court battle slowed things down even more, so you are quite correct.

As to FM, the 1967 cutoff for AM FM simulcasts was done to try to make the band viable. FM Stereo had not done that, and, in fact, had created only about 100 stereo stations in the first two years after authorization... around 1961, I think. In 1950 there were nearly twice as many FMs as in 1959, so there was a real desire by the FCC to increase service... just like the mandate for all TV sets to be UHF capable.

As you point out, receiver manufacturers are driven by what they see as marketing advantages. Improving AM band reception after the horse had left the barn made no sense as they perceived that consumeers were losing interest in AM.

My first FM was licensed in 1966 and went on in 1967 as the first FM in a whole country; I was laughed at in a broadcaster's convention for putting it on. Amazingly, it was profitable in its second year (I refused to sell spots for the first year) and went on to outbill my most successful AM within three years. When I started it, most receivers there had AM and Shortwave; a few years later, stores had AM Fm receivers and no SW ones. The market was determined by demand.
 
hipporadio said:
Well there’s the perfect source for justifying real-world consumer behavior – the NAB :D

The NAB is an industrry association, and reflects the feelings of the industry. However, I was referring to what broadcasters talked and chatted about at NAB conventions, no the official position of the NAB itself. And the sentiment in the late 70's was that AM stereo had to happen fast, or it would not help. By the time it did happen, AM could not drive its own listeners to AM stereo... because they did not have the music audience to do so.

Kahn’s “legal gyrations” commenced nearly a decade laterafter the FCC’s reversal of their “marketplace decision” policy

Kahn, between petitions and lawsuits prevented the possibility of AM stereo which should have happened in about 1978. As I said, I had signed orders from two of the system manufacturers for their first unit... by the time one system prevailed, who cared? The AM I had which in '78 was #2 with over a 10 share was about 20th with a 1 share in 1983 (I was long gone by then). And in that market, FM was over a 60 share.

[/quote]Oh David P-L-E-A-S-E! I’m 50 - and I’ll guess you’re a bit further along – enough to recall the history of home consumer electronics better than I. AM sections were anything but “decent” in the mid-to-late 70s [as you implied].[/quote]

Since the average receiver used for most listening was a car radio, a clock radio, a kitchen radio or one in the office or workplace, not a big stereo, I can say that most of the ones in the 70's were reasonable decent vs. the price point. For the already mentioned AM, we routinely bought assortments of consumer radios at K Mart and Sears to use to do subjective listening while doing processor adjustment, and they, for the most part, were perfectly good-sounding.

The Pac-rim invasion of “component stereo” had barely gassed-up [by about 1972] before AM sections found their way into the dumpster. Many engineers explained it away as a cost-cutting integration decision... Discrete AM components and tuned R.F. and I.F. circuits found their way into all-in-one LSIs costing under a dime – understandable, given the competitive and emerging market for that new phenomenon known as “stereo FM”.

We are talking 70's here. LSI, if I recall, was not a product of the early 70's... and most radios were not replaced that often and the ones in common use by 1978 were the product of the last 10 years at least.

Today, my A/V system is anchored by a Sony ES-series receiver. It’s rather amusing that AM “misery” now seems to enjoy company in the surround-sound audio-meets-video age – FM on this unit joins the AM band in the abyss. Even more telling is that twist of the knob on my original [and surviving] 37-year-old Realistic receiver... Compare those two AM radios, and you’ll fully-appreciate the proper perspective, David :'(

By the early 80's, receiver manufacturers realized AM was not going to sell radios. So they cut costs on the AM part.

vsa said:
It's interesting to watch as history is already repeating itself. In recent years, all of radio has now become too uncool in the pre-money demo. And like AM Stereo before, HD radio has arrived to the party way – way - way too late. And as we are discovering, not being DIGITAL is far from being the whole problem.

Funny, but even 96% of teens use radio, per Arbitron PPM data form the first tow PPM markets. Radio may not be hip, but it is used.

HD was never intended to be a quick fix. It costs relatively little for a major market station to add HD, and as better chipsets come out (like the major Samsung announcement of a 9mm low power chip shipping in Q1 of 2008) there will be lower costs for consumer radios and better reception. My third generation radio is vastly better than early junk like the BA receptor, so I anticipate 2008 will start to bring really nice and useful receivers.
 
Salem is part of the Portland metro but there is a Marion County breakdown. Also, part of Salem is in Polk County since the Willamette River divides the city and the 2 counties. For the purpose of counting the population, when I said "Salem", I didn't mean just the city limits but the area around Salem between maybe Woodburn, Stayton and Dallas. I can't really think of anything to the south. Albany is too far away. The US Census lists the Salem metro area as over 200,000. Moving on, the full Class Cs cover the entire city of Salem with 70dbu, the ones on the Stonehenge tower hit just about the middle of town and C1s don't do THAT well but still have significant listening. I can hear the C2s just fine and they're under 60dbu. One of them decodes to HD in that location! All I'm saying is that there must be similar areas of this country where people are willing to listen to a weaker signal if it's clean and sometimes, even if it isn't.
 
semoochie said:
I meant to also mention that I have no doubt that internet audio can sound better than HD radio. What I was trying to say was that I didn't think posting an HD audio file online would sound the SAME as the original product because of conflicting codecs so it wouldn't be an accurate representation of the original.

And the answer is... (fanfare) don't use conflicting codecs!
HD radio (aacPlus sometimes also referred to as HE-aac) also sounds terrible when audio is encoded with one lossy codec such as MP3, then broadcast with another conflicting codec. When audio is encoded to MP3 (or other lossy codecs) then broadcast over HD radio (aacPlus) or streamed over the internet using aacPlus then encoding artifacts are compounded.
Pristine uncompressed "wave" files can be directly sent over the internet and downloaded with NO loss in quality!
Audio saved as standard lossless wave files on a computer, and then streamed over the internet using aacPlus (same codec as HD radio) sound great because there was no transcoding. Only one lossy codec was used, and it was state of the art aacPlus, which is the same codec HD radio uses.
Listen to aacPlus streaming stations here:
www.tuner2.com
 
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