Music

[TheLaffer]

I'm watching nip n tuck on tv. I'm hearing some great songs from the 70's that i NEVER hear on radio anymore. Sad.

While growing up in Dallas i heard these songs on KVIL, KLIF, All #1 songs and i hear them in other markets. What's the deal???

Love is in the air
Copacabana
Fool if you think it's over

 

[little1]

Those songs are tweeners. Not really "oldies', not really 'classic rock', not part of the 'best mix of the 80's, 90's and today', etc...

And radio these days is all about identifying your 'niche', figuring out what songs fit that niche, and trying to sell it.

And none of those songs really fit any of the niches that are in current use. (At least until some of the HD subchannels get up and running)

So yeah, maybe you're not hearing them. But for almost 25 years I've heard the same variation on that theme. "You're not playing this, you're not playing that". But play too much, your cume goes down. Play too little, your TSL goes down. PD's are on a never ending quest for that perfect middle ground.

That doesn't really exist.

 

[ronnyk]

You should get XM. I think you would like 70s on 7. XM's 80s station is also good. Better variety than what MIX plays. Seems like the noon 80s show plays the same songs everyday. As far as XM, I hear songs I haven't heard since high school. Also XM is airing the old AT40s from the 70s.

 

[TheLaffer]

Those songs are tweeners. Not really "oldies', not really 'classic rock', not part of the 'best mix of the 80's, 90's and today', etc...

And radio these days is all about identifying your 'niche', figuring out what songs fit that niche, and trying to sell it.

And none of those songs really fit any of the niches that are in current use. (At least until some of the HD subchannels get up and running)

So yeah, maybe you're not hearing them. But for almost 25 years I've heard the same variation on that theme. "You're not playing this, you're not playing that". But play too much, your cume goes down. Play too little, your TSL goes down. PD's are on a never ending quest for that perfect middle ground.

Well Little 1 let's make a niche! I miss 'em and they WERE hits. BIG HITS.

 

[BigBird]

KAAM plays a lot of the music you're describing on AM 770. The sound isn't bad, particularly if you have an HD radio, or you can check them out at http://www.kaamradio.com and they stream in stereo.

 

[Robert Bass]

Big hits "in their day" maybe, but mostly stiffs today (e.g. Copacabana... the mass audience doesn't want to hear that!)

R

 

[radiodial]

Big hits "in their day" maybe, but mostly stiffs today (e.g. Copacabana... the mass audience doesn't want to hear that!)

That's the problem with radio today. Radio can no longer tell people what they what to hear and what they don't want to hear. The people have control of their choices now. Radio won't die but it will no longer be a place for music. If someone wants to hear "Copacabana" then by God they can hear "Copacabana!" Don't need to sit around hopelessly wating for radio to play it.

We the People are in the Driver's Seat Now! The Revolution is On!

 

[TheLaffer]

Big hits "in their day" maybe, but mostly stiffs today (e.g. Copacabana... the mass audience doesn't want to hear that!)

Stiffs? I assume you mean non-hits? How come Barry Manilow sells out concerts in minutes. Oh it's just a bunch of gay guys and fat old women. W cares about them right?

It's all about that great Hip Hop and Alternative right? :

 

[TheLaffer]

KAAM plays a lot of the music you're describing on AM 770. The sound isn't bad, particularly if you have an HD radio, or you can check them out at http://www.kaamradio.com and they stream in stereo.

I have listened to KAAM. There audio is bad. A bunch of hiss. The internet sream is very good. Some of those big band songs i can't handle but i do like the other stuff.

 

[Robert Bass]

It never ceases to amaze me how people react to the truth.

“Stiffs” are songs that have not withstood the test of time.

David could elaborate on that in greater detail.

Also, PD’s at commercial oldies stations do not, I repeat “do not” tell the audience what they do or don’t want to hear. Rather, the audience does that via music testing.

Again, David can elaborate.

R

 

[radiodial]

It never ceases to amaze me how people react to the truth.

“Stiffs” are songs that have not withstood the test of time.

David could elaborate on that in greater detail.

Also, PD’s at commercial oldies stations do not, I repeat “do not” tell the audience what they do or don’t want to hear. Rather, the audience does that via music testing.

Again, David can elaborate.

You don't get it do you? "Stiffs" and "music testing" are going the way of the DoDo bird. That's old school baloney. The people have the choice now for selecting what they want to hear. We don't have to wait on a DJ to spin a new record or an oldie that we'd like to hear. We can download it in a second -- anything we'd like, anytime.

Look at how rude you were to a listener who wanted to hear "Copacabana." You basically flipped him off and told him he didn't know what he was talking about. Guess what? We don't have to put up with that smug attitude anymore. The guy wants to hear a particular song. Who are you to tell him no?

Radio does not control music any longer. The sooner you dinosaurs figure that out, and figure who does control the music, the sooner you'll understand that We the People control music now. Not you.

 

[Robert Bass]

Rude?

I think not. Sometimes the truth hurts.

I get what you are saying ad nauseam. I’ve heard it over and over and over and over and over!

What you appear to be missing is that “Terra Radio” is “free to listen to”, whereas most alternatives involve $$$. For example, when you dl an MP3, you obviously need something to download it with (a computer) and something to play it with (an Ipod or whatever). You are investing in something that pleases you.

Radio isn’t about pleasing everyone; it’s about pleasing as many as possible.

XM, Sirius and the like are programming just about anything they want to because people are paying them subscriptions. Imagine how “free” terrestrial would sound if listeners could pay for what they wanted to hear. Oh wait, isn’t that Payola?

I’ve heard all the claims that different mediums would kill off terrestrial radio. Guess what, that still hasn’t happened! You can march down Main Street screaming at the top of your lungs that instant gratification will be the death of longevity all you want, but as history has shown, the death of free radio remains a pipe dream.

R

 

[radiodial]

Rude?

I think not. Sometimes the truth hurts.

It hurts radio but not me.

I’ve heard all the claims that different mediums would kill off terrestrial radio. Guess what, that still hasn’t happened! You can march down Main Street screaming at the top of your lungs that instant gratification will be the death of longevity all you want, but as history has shown, the death of free radio remains a pipe dream.

I didn't say that now did I? I said: "Radio won't die but it will no longer be a place for music." Radio does not control the music selection any longer. We do! There's been a major paradigm shift 180 degrees. Best to figure it out as not to get bulldozed by it.

 

[klifhanger]

The conversation has been held before about "Music research/music testing" It's over done. Who can truly say 150 people packed into an auditorium is a representation of what the majority wants? You can worda question to skew a predictable response. Talk show hosts do that all the time. It's manipulating the results. Having David or other consultants answer the question is not really answering the question but justifying it in their sphere of influence. The old methods worked and can still work if delegation of duties ,or laziness to carry out the said duty of finding out "A" station's audience come to an abrupt halt. It won't though because of the "lobbying" of consultants to keep their own jobs,the will of the boardroom full of non-broadcasters,and finally the sales folks who basically have taken over programming.

You have heard the stories of XM, Sirius still operating in the red. Hell its only been available for what 5 years?(approx) How long did it take ABC,CBS,NBC and FM itself to finally operate in the black? The majority a bit longer. So if satellite is doing so poorly how come sales of receivers have gone up,and increases every month? The audience wants to escape the the tight playlist and the saturation of spots. They want to be entertain and hear music they no longer get from their radio and hear an announcer who knows how to entertain and inform.
Consultants and fans of consultants plus those who have been in radio post 1996 will shoot that opinion down as "that was then" They are the "spindoctors" of todays broadcaster,ignoring the true situation and trying to place a bandaid on a Hemorhage. The audience is dwindling, and you can blame satellite and internet all you want. You would be right,because the audience is leaving radio,because radio has left them.

 

[radiodial]

The conversation has been held before about "Music research/music testing" It's over done. Who can truly say 150 people packed into an auditorium is a representation of what the majority wants? You can worda question to skew a predictable response. Talk show hosts do that all the time. It's manipulating the results. Having David or other consultants answer the question is not really answering the question but justifying it in their sphere of influence. The old methods worked and can still work if delegation of duties ,or laziness to carry out the said duty of finding out "A" station's audience come to an abrupt halt. It won't though because of the "lobbying" of consultants to keep their own jobs,the will of the boardroom full of non-broadcasters,and finally the sales folks who basically have taken over programming.

You have heard the stories of XM, Sirius still operating in the red. Hell its only been available for what 5 years?(approx) How long did it take ABC,CBS,NBC and FM itself to finally operate in the black? The majority a bit longer. So if satellite is doing so poorly how come sales of receivers have gone up,and increases every month? The audience wants to escape the the tight playlist and the saturation of spots. They want to be entertain and hear music they no longer get from their radio and hear an announcer who knows how to entertain and inform.
Consultants and fans of consultants plus those who have been in radio post 1996 will shoot that opinion down as "that was then" They are the "spindoctors" of todays broadcaster,ignoring the true situation and trying to place a bandaid on a Hemorhage. The audience is dwindling, and you can blame satellite and internet all you want. You would be right,because the audience is leaving radio,because radio has left them.

Excellent post!

And going back to your first paragraph about "music testing" and tight playlists there is a solution. The first order of business is to admit that the listener has control of the music selction and that radio does not. That is a thing of the past. The very best "music testing" is what people are actually listening to. So radio needs to tap into the download lists (iTunes, etc..) to see what people are choosing. If you are a rock station then tap into the major rock songs that people are downloading in your market. Same for jazz, urban, etc.. The listener is driving the music selection today. Stay up with them or get left behind.

It's a new day... will radio embrace it or go off like a dinosaur into the tar pits?

 

[davideduardo]

It never ceases to amaze me how people react to the truth.

“Stiffs” are songs that have not withstood the test of time.

David could elaborate on that in greater detail.

Also, PD’s at commercial oldies stations do not, I repeat “do not” tell the audience what they do or don’t want to hear. Rather, the audience does that via music testing.

Again, David can elaborate.

You don't get it do you? "Stiffs" and "music testing" are going the way of the DoDo bird. That's old school baloney. The people have the choice now for selecting what they want to hear. We don't have to wait on a DJ to spin a new record or an oldie that we'd like to hear. We can download it in a second -- anything we'd like, anytime.

Look at how rude you were to a listener who wanted to hear "Copacabana." You basically flipped him off and told him he didn't know what he was talking about. Guess what? We don't have to put up with that smug attitude anymore. The guy wants to hear a particular song. Who are you to tell him no?

Radio does not control music any longer. The sooner you dinosaurs figure that out, and figure who does control the music, the sooner you'll understand that We the People control music now. Not you.

Scads of people have been interviewed about personal music purchases vs. radio listening, going back to the 50's. There is no difference in a person who bought a 45 of Danny & The Juniors in 1957 or one who buys a digital copy of Daddy Yankee in 2006. Each is adding to their personal music collection.

Radio is not a music collection. It is a created mood, with very precisely tailored segues, use of talkent, promotions and concerts, a morning show, and songs. An iPod or an old 45 rpm player did not create moods, but they allowed the individual to listen to one song over and over again, if the wanted.

Radio has always coexisted with personal music collections.

On the other hand, since we can get very little data, if any, on who downloads what songs and where, it is hard to know what songs our listeners or prospects are actually buying or stealing, vs. the listeners of totally different stations. we do not know the age of shuch persons, the reason they downloaded ("I wanted it for the party on Saturday!) or for how long they will like it.

Music testing assembles stratified groups of listeners and has them score songs you might want to play on one station. we know the average listener changes between 3 and 5 other stations regularly, so we do not want to know what thelistener wants to hear on the other stations... just when they are in themood for ours.

And in formats that play no currents, how do we know that every oldies listener already has a copy of "Brown Eyed Girl" and that is why nobody downloads it. Active music researchonly applies to currents, and only to the small percentage of consumers who actively seek new music (10% of consumers buy 40% of all recorded music... they are the actives and distort research).

Radio never controlled the music. Radio constrols the mood, the flavor, the texture. And ther eis a lot more to it than just the songs... it is the mix, the jocks, the intensity of repetition and much more.

What you are describing about personal music collections has been true for more than half a century. Yawn. Move on. Nothing to see.

 

[davideduardo]

The conversation has been held before about "Music research/music testing" It's over done. Who can truly say 150 people packed into an auditorium is a representation of what the majority wants?

Nope. What a music test does is tell you what your audience or prospective audience wants. If properly recruited, just like Arbitron, less than 100 people will be able to tell you with total replicability what they want and do not want to hear on your station.

Such a sample is nearly 100% accurate for its intended purpose.

You can worda question to skew a predictable response. Talk show hosts do that all the time. It's manipulating the results. Having David or other consultants answer the question is not really answering the question but justifying it in their sphere of influence.

In my present position, I am NOT a consultant. And we spend hours on every questionnaire to eliminate bias of all kinds. And music tests are simply "score the song" and do not involve questions. We get demos and listening habits, but only to be able to sort the results on age, sex, ethnicity, etc.

The old methods worked and can still work if delegation of duties ,or laziness to carry out the said duty of finding out "A" station's audience come to an abrupt halt. It won't though because of the "lobbying" of consultants to keep their own jobs,the will of the boardroom full of non-broadcasters,and finally the sales folks who basically have taken over programming.

Sellers where I work have no influence on programming. The only palce where sales comes in is when a format is being designed, to keep it from having unsalable diemos (12-17 or 55+, mostly)

Consultants are generally the first to ask for regular research, to make sure the station is totally on track. A consultant may see 60 to 100 tests a year, so they know how to interpret them. A PD, on the other hand, may not see 60 tests in thier lifetime, so the consultant is a big help.

You have heard the stories of XM, Sirius still operating in the red. Hell its only been available for what 5 years?(approx)

So? trends move infinitely faster today than ever, and 5 years is an eternity for a start-up business.

How long did it take ABC,CBS,NBC and FM itself to finally operate in the black?

When Paley built CBS, it was profitable from day one. He extended the programming form WCAU in Philadelphia to other markets, building an ad hoc web as he did so. It made money instantly.

FM is a bad example. Operators who tried made money. It took the FCC to make the band viable, though.

I don't see what your point is. How does this change rado research from a good thing to a bad one?

The majority a bit longer. So if satellite is doing so poorly how come sales of receivers have gone up,and increases every month?

Untrue. XM is being investigated foy inflating numbers, and they projected a sharp downturn in new subscribers in August. The stock, 52 weeks ago over $36, is now at $12. Sales are off, the stock is off, and the losses continue... and the SEC is investigating them. What is wrong with this picture.

The audience wants to escape the the tight playlist and the saturation of spots. They want to be entertain and hear music they no longer get from their radio and hear an announcer who knows how to entertain and inform.

Most listeners like the rotations on terrestrial radio, they like that it is free, and it serves the purpose nicely. Most listeners do not want a list padded with mediocre deep cuts, and they do not, mostly, want much unfamiliar new music.

On the other hand, those who like oldies and standards should by XM radios, as terrestiral radio will not do this kind of money losing format.

Consultants and fans of consultants plus those who have been in radio post 1996 will shoot that opinion down as "that was then" They are the "spindoctors" of todays broadcaster,ignoring the true situation and trying to place a bandaid on a Hemorhage. The audience is dwindling, and you can blame satellite and internet all you want. You would be right,because the audience is leaving radio,because radio has left them.

In the core demos, 18-54, the reach of radio is less than 1% below the levels of 20 years ago. Go find a new argument, as that one is just a lie.

 

[Tookiebird]

It never ceases to amaze me how people react to the truth.

“Stiffs” are songs that have not withstood the test of time.

David could elaborate on that in greater detail.

Also, PD’s at commercial oldies stations do not, I repeat “do not” tell the audience what they do or don’t want to hear. Rather, the audience does that via music testing.

Again, David can elaborate.

You don't get it do you? "Stiffs" and "music testing" are going the way of the DoDo bird. That's old school baloney. The people have the choice now for selecting what they want to hear. We don't have to wait on a DJ to spin a new record or an oldie that we'd like to hear. We can download it in a second -- anything we'd like, anytime.

Look at how rude you were to a listener who wanted to hear "Copacabana." You basically flipped him off and told him he didn't know what he was talking about. Guess what? We don't have to put up with that smug attitude anymore. The guy wants to hear a particular song. Who are you to tell him no?

Radio does not control music any longer. The sooner you dinosaurs figure that out, and figure who does control the music, the sooner you'll understand that We the People control music now. Not you.


Radiodial,

You speak the truth. I'm in radio and yes there are a lot of old school thinking. You are 100% correct. Today more and more are getting hip to internet and other non terrestrial means.

Some of you better wake the hell up!

 

[Tookiebird]

It never ceases to amaze me how people react to the truth.

“Stiffs” are songs that have not withstood the test of time.

David could elaborate on that in greater detail.

Also, PD’s at commercial oldies stations do not, I repeat “do not” tell the audience what they do or don’t want to hear. Rather, the audience does that via music testing.

Again, David can elaborate.

R

Oh really? Is that why at one station a paticular song is hot and another station in the same market the song is not and both stations are going for the same audience. Come on!!!!!

If you don't test certain songs because you've HEARD they don't test well how do you know for sure? I could go on and on but some people are still stuck doing the same thing over and over.

 

[Tookiebird]

The conversation has been held before about "Music research/music testing" It's over done. Who can truly say 150 people packed into an auditorium is a representation of what the majority wants? You can worda question to skew a predictable response. Talk show hosts do that all the time. It's manipulating the results. Having David or other consultants answer the question is not really answering the question but justifying it in their sphere of influence. The old methods worked and can still work if delegation of duties ,or laziness to carry out the said duty of finding out "A" station's audience come to an abrupt halt. It won't though because of the "lobbying" of consultants to keep their own jobs,the will of the boardroom full of non-broadcasters,and finally the sales folks who basically have taken over programming.

You have heard the stories of XM, Sirius still operating in the red. Hell its only been available for what 5 years?(approx) How long did it take ABC,CBS,NBC and FM itself to finally operate in the black? The majority a bit longer. So if satellite is doing so poorly how come sales of receivers have gone up,and increases every month? The audience wants to escape the the tight playlist and the saturation of spots. They want to be entertain and hear music they no longer get from their radio and hear an announcer who knows how to entertain and inform.
Consultants and fans of consultants plus those who have been in radio post 1996 will shoot that opinion down as "that was then" They are the "spindoctors" of todays broadcaster,ignoring the true situation and trying to place a bandaid on a Hemorhage. The audience is dwindling, and you can blame satellite and internet all you want. You would be right,because the audience is leaving radio,because radio has left them.

You hit the nail on the head Klif!!!!!