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Music

I believe that those in charge would know,and the papers of "THE" company also would know. The "outside" annalysts ( the first 5 letters are appropriate) would use a "determination" ( a guess) . I can come up with time lines as well and write in the years to make it look good.
I'd reather deal with the SOURCE ITSELF and not some "Private Collection". Columbia University's archives are open to THE PUBLIC. serving the PUBLIC, NOT THE BOARD

The lengths you stretch in order to win an argument, any argument is amusing. It's okay for YOU to be incorrect,it means you're human. You'll dispute this as your obsession dictates. So dispute away. The subject has been beaten to death. Are you sure you're not that guy on All Access?
 
klifhanger said:
I believe that those in charge would know,and the papers of "THE" company also would know. The "outside" annalysts ( the first 5 letters are appropriate) would use a "determination" ( a guess) . I can come up with time lines as well and write in the years to make it look good.
I'd reather deal with the SOURCE ITSELF and not some "Private Collection". Columbia University's archives are open to THE PUBLIC. serving the PUBLIC, NOT THE BOARD

The lengths you stretch in order to win an argument, any argument is amusing. It's okay for YOU to be incorrect,it means you're human. You'll dispute this as your obsession dictates. So dispute away. The subject has been beaten to death. Are you sure you're not that guy on All Access?

I do not regularly go to All Access. The less I have to do with record ducks, the better.

The documents I cite, such as Radio Digest, Fortune, and the earnings filings are public documents, as are the published annual reports to shareholders of CBS. All can be found at specific libraries. Or you can buy them on eBay... which is where I obtained the cited edition of Fortune and the set of Broadcasting Magazines from the late 30's and on.
 
klifhanger, God has spoken. BTW there's only one 'n' in analyst, so the 1st four letters are appropriate. 2BTW did you know David has his own thread on the LA Board? ... Fun reading
 
He does? Well I guess he needs to be entertained. I ,and others have seen the similarities between him, and that character I alluded to on All Access. He denies it,but I am not stunned in the slightest. The "character " does as well. Yeah I know there is only one "N" but I wanted it to stand out in my double entrende reference. I can make up peridodicals too like anyone else and say I own the entire library,but who would care? He is a creature of habit,and stakes his claim as being more informed,and more correct in his knowledge of broadcasting,and has more experience ,and has owned more, and consulted more. "MORE" is the mantra.He speaks ,and we shall all listen..at least in his world. His info. about CBS is based on OUTSIDE INFORMATION not INSIDE as mine was. so there! :p
 
klifhanger said:
He does? Well I guess he needs to be entertained. I ,and others have seen the similarities between him, and that character I alluded to on All Access. He denies it,but I am not stunned in the slightest. The "character " does as well. Yeah I know there is only one "N" but I wanted it to stand out in my double entrende reference. I can make up peridodicals too like anyone else and say I own the entire library,but who would care? He is a creature of habit,and stakes his claim as being more informed,and more correct in his knowledge of broadcasting,and has more experience ,and has owned more, and consulted more. "MORE" is the mantra.He speaks ,and we shall all listen..at least in his world. His info. about CBS is based on OUTSIDE INFORMATION not INSIDE as mine was. so there! :p

Why don't you recognize that there is a disagreement between very credible but different sources here?

You claim the Paley "notes" indicate losses at the "network." You do not define whether that includes or excludes the O&O stations. You do not indicate sources. You do not describe context.

I believe that my references to 3 trusted magazines, the annual reports to shareholders and other data show that CBS, as a total entity was profitable from 1930 on.

Based on that PUBLIC data, I believe there was profitability. You believe differenty. Instead of suggesting this as an interesting topic for further research, given the disagreement between personal notes and published data, you beame hostile.
 
DavidEduardo said:
klifhanger said:
He does? Well I guess he needs to be entertained. I ,and others have seen the similarities between him, and that character I alluded to on All Access. He denies it,but I am not stunned in the slightest. The "character " does as well. Yeah I know there is only one "N" but I wanted it to stand out in my double entrende reference. I can make up peridodicals too like anyone else and say I own the entire library,but who would care? He is a creature of habit,and stakes his claim as being more informed,and more correct in his knowledge of broadcasting,and has more experience ,and has owned more, and consulted more. "MORE" is the mantra.He speaks ,and we shall all listen..at least in his world. His info. about CBS is based on OUTSIDE INFORMATION not INSIDE as mine was. so there! :p


Why don't you recognize that there is a disagreement between very credible but different sources here?

You claim the Paley "notes" indicate losses at the "network." You do not define whether that includes or excludes the O&O stations. You do not indicate sources. You do not describe context.

I believe that my references to 3 trusted magazines, the annual reports to shareholders and other data show that CBS, as a total entity was profitable from 1930 on.

Based on that PUBLIC data, I believe there was profitability. You believe differenty. Instead of suggesting this as an interesting topic for further research, given the disagreement between personal notes and published data, you beame hostile.

And those who disagree are misinformed gringos...
 
Cleaning up another DE mess:

----> Scads of people have been interviewed about personal music purchases vs. radio listening, going back to the 50's. There is no difference in a person who bought a 45 of Danny & The Juniors in 1957 or one who buys a digital copy of Daddy Yankee in 2006. Each is adding to their personal music collection.

Ripping a CD or downloading an MP3 is so radically different than what this dinosaur says that it is laughable he can keep a straight face. The kid who bought a 45 in 1957 heard the record first on a radio station, probably one with a huge share. The kids buying (or more likely stealing) music these days are so far ahead of radio that it is a different paradigm totally. Most don't listen to radio at all.

---->Radio is not a music collection. It is a created mood, with very precisely tailored segues, use of talkent, promotions and concerts, a morning show, and songs.


Been to www.pandora.com, Davee?

Your little Ozzie and Harriet business model is so very 1960s. Kids today - and many adults, too - have a totally different lifestyle. To think they would tune into one source for entertainment is a business model that is at least several generations out of date. Most people these days have moved on to the next task before the next segue, much less before the morning show starts or the next stop set ends.



---->An iPod or an old 45 rpm player did not create moods, but they allowed the individual to listen to one song over and over again, if the wanted.

What does an IPod with 3,000 songs on it create, Davey? Other than something you radio industry people would prefer didn't exist?

------->Radio has always coexisted with personal music collections.

Personal music collections of 10 years ago are much different than personal music of today, and next week will be differernt again.

---->On the other hand, since we can get very little data, if any, on who downloads what songs and where, it is hard to know what songs our listeners or prospects are actually buying or stealing, vs. the listeners of totally different stations.


Exactly! So those like you who make their millions by pretending to still be relevant trot out your research: radio TSL is still the same, 94 percent of Americans still listen to radio, blah blah blah. How do you reconcile 14 million people PAYING for Sirius or XM? How do you reconcile the near-collapse of the American recording industry? How do you reconcile the millions of IPods, MP3 players, etc? Internet radio? Music Choice on cable? XM or Sirius in 40 million satellite TV households?

--->we do not know the age of shuch persons, the reason they downloaded ("I wanted it for the party on Saturday!) or for how long they will like it


And that scares you. It should.

--->Radio never controlled the music.

Bwah hah hahah hah. Did you put this in here to see if we are awake?


---->What you are describing about personal music collections has been true for more than half a century. Yawn. Move on. Nothing to see.

Oh, how you in the corporate radio industry wish this were true....
 
Re: CBS was making $3 million a year in 1939 per US Supreme Court.

Why don't you recognize that there is a disagreement between very credible but different sources here?

You claim the Paley "notes" indicate losses at the "network." You do not define whether that includes or excludes the O&O stations. You do not indicate sources. You do not describe context.

I believe that my references to 3 trusted magazines, the annual reports to shareholders and other data show that CBS, as a total entity was profitable from 1930 on.

Based on that PUBLIC data, I believe there was profitability. You believe differenty. Instead of suggesting this as an interesting topic for further research, given the disagreement between personal notes and published data, you beame hostile.

To which I replied.

And those who disagree are misinformed gringos...

Those who disagree can consider the facts. The statement was made here that CBS(sic) did not make money until about 1941, just before the war, when they signed some NBC talent.

Please take this up with the United States Supreme court, which, in a decision in 1942, shows that the Columbia Broadcasting System was profitable prior to this date (in fact, profitable since 1930, but this decision only covers 1939 and 1940.

Quote from the decision:

U.S. Supreme Court
COLUMBIA BROADCASTING SYSTEM v. UNITED STATES, 316 U.S. 407 (1942)
316 U.S. 407

COLUMBIA BROADCASTING SYSTEM, Inc.,
v.
UNITED STATES et al.
No. 1026.

Argued May 1, 1942.
Decided June 1, 1942.



Appeal from the District Court of the United States for the Southern District of New York.

Mr. Charles E. Hughes, Jr., of New York City, for appellant.

Mr. Telford Taylor, of Washington, D.C., for appellees the United States and Federal Communications Commission. [316 U.S. 407, 408] Mr. Louis G. Caldwell, of Washington, D.C., for appellee Mutual Broadcasting System, Inc.


Mr. Chief Justice STONE delivered the opinion of the Court.

The Federal Communications Commission, by its order of May 2, 1941, as amended by its order of October 11, 1941, promulgated regulations which purport to require the Commission to refuse to grant a license to any broadcasting station which enters into certain defined types of contract with any broadcasting network organization. These regulations, it is alleged, affect adversely appellant's contractual relations with broadcasting stations and impair its ability to carry on its business in maintaining and operating its nationwide broadcasting network. The regulations as amended on October 11, 1941, together with a supplemental 'minute' promulgated by the Commission on October 31, 1941, are set forth at the end of this opinion. The question for our decision is whether appellant is entitled to secure a judicial review of the order by a suit brought under 402(a) of the Communications Act of 1934, 48 Stat. 1093, 47 U.S.C. 402(a), 47 U.S.C.A. 402(a), and the Urgent Deficiencies Act, 38 Stat. 219, 220, 28 U.S.C. 47, 28 U.S.C.A. 47.

Pursuant to 402(a) appellant brought the present suit against the United States in the Southern District of New York, to enjoin enforcement of the Commission's order as contrary to the public interest and beyond the Commission's statutory authority, and on the further ground, if the order be deemed within that authority, that the statute is an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power by Congress in violation of Article I, 1 of the Constitution, and operates to deprive appellant of property [316 U.S. 407, 409] without due process of law in violation of the Fifth Amendment. The case was heard by a court of three judges, which permitted the Commission and the Mutual Broadcasting Company to intervene as defendants. It granted appellees' motion to dismiss the complaint for want of jurisdiction, D.C., 44 F.Supp. 688, and stayed the operation of the Commission's order pending direct appeal to this Court.

In 1938 the Communications Commission authorized an investigation 'to determine what special regulations applicable to radio stations engaged in chain or other broadcasting are required in the public interest, convenience, or necessity'. Extensive hearings were held by a committee consisting of three members of the Commission, at whose request the national networks, including appellant, intervened. In June, 1940, the committee made a report, on the basis of which briefs were filed and oral argument was presented before the full Commission by the three national networks and other interested parties. In May, 1941, the Commission issued its 'Report on Chain Broadcasting' and ordered the adoption of the regulations which, in their amended form, are the subject of the present controversy.

The relevant facts stated in the bill of complaint are as follows: Appellant or its predecessor has been engaged in the business of nationwide network or chain broadcasting since 1927. It has a large amount of physical property used in the business and has built up a valuable goodwill. For its broadcasts it maintains a staff of employees and expends large amounts for musicians and broadcasting performers. It has commitments by long-term contracts aggregating more than $4,000,000 for broadcasting expenditures, including those for the use of land and buildings and for the furnishing of news and broadcasting programs in the next few years. Appellant's total property devoted to its broadcasting business exceeds $18,000,000 in value; [316 U.S. 407, 410] its earnings from the network exceeded $3,000,000 in both 1939 and 1940
 
zumahans said:
What does an IPod with 3,000 songs on it create, Davey? Other than something you radio industry people would prefer didn't exist?

Multiple studies in recent months have show the average iPod to have and average of 300 songs on it. Not 3,000.

And the impact on radio in radio's sales demos is not significant.

And the 11 million satellite users represent the usage of 3.5 million radio users, since nearly all sat listening is in the car... where only 30% of radio listening takes place.
 
Re: CBS was making $3 million a year in 1939 per US Supreme Court.

I thought you didn't believe the government, Davey.

Do you think it is possible that a broadcasting company had several sets of books, and was able to hide profits in one division by posting losses in and another, and payments there?

You may be right about CBS making money in 1930, I don't have a horse in that race.

But I do insist on exercising every opportunity to show that your posts are filled with contradictions, errors and insults.

Which brings me back to your last post of a Supreme Court ruling from the 1940s.

In another thread, you recently wrote that you did not believe that the radio industry was debt-burdened and cutting costs. I posted an FCC Report To Congress from 2001 that said exactly what I maintained. You said you did not believe the government.

So which is it, Davey?

I really don't care which is your answer, because that is not the obvious point.

The obvious point is that you have once again posted a contradiction, a radical change in position to justify your latest pronouncement from on high.

--- Note: Nice to be in Texas, I listen to XM 12 a lot and feel like I know y'all personally, having heard each one of you on Rogue Calls.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Multiple studies in recent months have show the average iPod to have and average of 300 songs on it. Not 3,000.

And the impact on radio in radio's sales demos is not significant.

And the 11 million satellite users represent the usage of 3.5 million radio users, since nearly all sat listening is in the car... where only 30% of radio listening takes place.
Sources, please.

Or are they proprietary?
 
DavidEduardo said:
since nearly all sat listening is in the car... where only 30% of radio listening takes place.
I've seen you post this % quite a few times. SOOOO tell us what the facts are re. the other 70%. How/where does that break down? If you say some of that is at work, how closely are "employees" listening to the radio? How much attention do ppl listening at work pay to commercials on the radio and do the advertisers know how much attention is given their spots?

I myself listen almost strictly to Internet Radio at my office which pipes through on my radio as well as on my computer. This week and next I am listening to the last days of WOXY.com.

So back to the point, I know of no one who listens very much at home. Radio is not a big part of their entertainment options in the home. My point is of the 30% of in-car radio listening, the driver and/or passengers are captive audience to any commercials on the radio...UNLESS they switch to a different station.
 
And what does the loss of 14 million (not 11 million) listeners this year to mean to your little empire, D-E? Probably nothing, because Univision Radio listeners are not going to pay for radio in this universe.

Besides, you company already washed out in the sat radio racket, didn't it?

And what about the 30 million IPods?
 
zumahans said:
And what does the loss of 14 million (not 11 million) listeners this year to mean to your little empire, D-E? Probably nothing, because Univision Radio listeners are not going to pay for radio in this universe.

Besides, you company already washed out in the sat radio racket, didn't it?

And what about the 30 million IPods?

It has taken satellite since 2001 to get to 11 million subscribers (if you count all the cars with satellite on dealer lots as subscribers).

The average American listens to radio about 19:30 hours a week. It is a bit higher in 18-54, too. But let's go with the average. Since most satellite radios are in cars, that limits listening to the car (duh). 30% of radio listening is in the car. So the net loss is equivalent to 30% of 11 million, or about 3.5 million "equivalent listeners."

Since Arbitron began measuring radio (and the data is parallel in Canada witht he BBM, even) about 5% of listeners did not use radio at all. Another 7 to 9 percent used it very lightly. When I went through my "boot camp" at XM prior to the service launching (yes, they call the programmer training "boot camp.") it was stressed that the light and non-users were a major target, as they were "ready" to try an alternative.

This is why, in markets where we have tabulated, satellite is less than a half-point of listening. Satellite, for many reasons, is not the target we have to keep an eye on. Far more interesting is WiMax, where radio will have an alternative to the antenna on a hill or tower in a marshland delivery model. Market analysts have extreme doubts about satellite, and have punished XM by driving two thirds of the shareholder value away within the last 52 weeks.

"My" company ceased to be a provider to XM when XM changed the model form limited commercials to no commercials. Our deal was based on ownership of commercial time. When that ended, there was no reason to continue an involvement... something even you could probably see.
 
SuperRadioFan said:
DavidEduardo said:
since nearly all sat listening is in the car... where only 30% of radio listening takes place.
I've seen you post this % quite a few times. SOOOO tell us what the facts are re. the other 70%. How/where does that break down? If you say some of that is at work, how closely are "employees" listening to the radio? How much attention do ppl listening at work pay to commercials on the radio and do the advertisers know how much attention is given their spots?

I myself listen almost strictly to Internet Radio at my office which pipes through on my radio as well as on my computer. This week and next I am listening to the last days of WOXY.com.

So back to the point, I know of no one who listens very much at home. Radio is not a big part of their entertainment options in the home. My point is of the 30% of in-car radio listening, the driver and/or passengers are captive audience to any commercials on the radio...UNLESS they switch to a different station.

Depending on the market, about 35% of listening is in the home and about 35% in the workplace. Some markets, like New York, have even less car listening because of the use of public transportation. And many smaller markets have less in car listening as commutes are very short.

Ratings do not measure the difference between listening and hearing. They never have. Just like newspaper circulation does not tell an advertiser if the paper was even read at all, or which ads were perused.

All the factors of inattention, etc., are factored into the pricing of media. Advertisers know that we mentally tune out things we are not interested in. I pay no attention to pickup truck ads, but if there is one for the Mini, I will listen with attention, because it interests me. So it does not matter whether you know people who listen or what your habits are. The fact is that audience and circulation data is the metric used for over $200 billion in ad expenditures, and those who use such data have factored all the variables into the price models decades ago.
 
zumahans said:
DavidEduardo said:
Multiple studies in recent months have show the average iPod to have and average of 300 songs on it. Not 3,000.

And the impact on radio in radio's sales demos is not significant.

And the 11 million satellite users represent the usage of 3.5 million radio users, since nearly all sat listening is in the car... where only 30% of radio listening takes place.
Sources, please.

Or are they proprietary?

The iPod "song count" was in both Radio Business Report and Inside Radio and involves two different studies, one which showed that iPod owners were greater users of radio than non-owners. Subscribe, and you get access to the back issues. I believe Marc Ramsey's blog also reported this.

On a quick search, in 15" I came up with this: http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/09/15/ipod.survey/ Yeah, it is the UK, but it sure proves the point. The other studies are discoverable by searching.

The satellite data is very easy to parse. Most installs (per Caroline Turner at XM, the press release person) 90% are in cars. If 30% of listening is in car, each XM install is worth 30% of an individual's listening time, or the equivalent of 3.5 million "full listeners."

The data on share can be calculated by adding and projecting the total quarter hours for satellite in a diary review into the universe, and deriving a share of total market quarter hours. Any subscriber to Arbitron can go and review their market or markets and do the same.

The fact that there is little impact on radio's sales demos is also easy to find. Comapre, say, 1998 18-54 or 25-54 radio usage with 2006 usage. No real evidence that the iPod is stealing radio users.
 
---->It has taken satellite since 2001 to get to 11 million subscribers (if you count all the cars with satellite on dealer lots as subscribers).

Which makes it the fastest-growing audio technology ever.

By the way, how many HD Radio sets have been sold yet, davey?

----> The average American listens to radio about 19:30 hours a week. It is a bit higher in 18-54, too. But let's go with the average. Since most satellite radios are in cars, that limits listening to the car (duh). 30% of radio listening is in the car. So the net loss is equivalent to 30% of 11 million, or about 3.5 million "equivalent listeners."

No, there is no corelation there at all. It could be that XM radio listeners are not a part of your "average" at all. First off, they pay for their radio. Secondly, most sat radio tuners are portable and can be carried into the house. Finally, early adopters of a competing technology are certainly not a part of your rating system, beholden as they are to the radio industry that sustains them.

---->Since Arbitron began measuring radio (and the data is parallel in Canada witht he BBM, even) about 5% of listeners did not use radio at all. Another 7 to 9 percent used it very lightly.

And that hasn't been changed by 14 million satellite radios and 30 million IPods? Or by streaming audio> Or Music Choice on cable? Or by XM/Sirius streams on 40 million DISH/DirecTV sets?

If your data doesn;t show that usage, what does it show about your data?

----> "My" company ceased to be a provider to XM when XM changed the model form limited commercials to no commercials.

Yeah, life sucks when your listeners are fleeing to another medium.
 
DavidEduardo said:
The iPod "song count" was in both Radio Business Report and Inside Radio and involves two different studies, one which showed that iPod owners were greater users of radio than non-owners. Subscribe, and you get access to the back issues. I believe Marc Ramsey's blog also reported this.


The fact that there is little impact on radio's sales demos is also easy to find. Comapre, say, 1998 18-54 or 25-54 radio usage with 2006 usage. No real evidence that the iPod is stealing radio users.

Consider the source. Radio industry surveys, radio industry magazines.

Hey David, did you hear the survey done by the Used car Dealers Association that said 99 percent of American consumers love used car salesmen?

Sorry, pal, I don't subscribe to that argument at all.
 
Re: CBS was making $3 million a year in 1939 per US Supreme Court.

zumahans said:
I thought you didn't believe the government, Davey.

Where did I say that. I said that I do not believe everything the government says, and I do not think most Americans do, either.

Do you think it is possible that a broadcasting company had several sets of books, and was able to hide profits in one division by posting losses in and another, and payments there?

No, I think the original poster got their facts wrong. There is an enormous amount of data showing the Columbia Broadcasting System to have been profitable and divident paying in the 30's. Court discover even proved it.

You may be right about CBS making money in 1930, I don't have a horse in that race.

Then stop posting. This was a discussion about whether CBS was profitable in the 30's or not.

Which brings me back to your last post of a Supreme Court ruling from the 1940s.

1942, to be exact

In another thread, you recently wrote that you did not believe that the radio industry was debt-burdened and cutting costs. I posted an FCC Report To Congress from 2001 that said exactly what I maintained. You said you did not believe the government.

I questioned several things in the citation, apparently from sime kind of press release, that I found absurd.

1. Debt to equity is the standard measure of the relationship of debt to an enterprise. I do not even know what "debt to capital" is. What capital?
2. The report or release talks about the effects of variable interest rates on EBITDA. EBITDA is calculated BEFORE interst charges. It's pretty much wat we call Broadcast Cash Flow (BCF). The release or report shows severl glaring examples of a total lack of financial knowledge.
3. Most US radio companies have debt to equity ratios below that of General Electric and other major industrial companies in the US. The "excess debt of consolidation" is a horrible urban legend.

So, while believing in "The Government" and our governmental system, I am not such a sap or rube as to believe that everything that comes out of Washington is 100% right.
 
zumahans said:
Consider the source. Radio industry surveys, radio industry magazines.

Hey David, did you hear the survey done by the Used car Dealers Association that said 99 percent of American consumers love used car salesmen?

Sorry, pal, I don't subscribe to that argument at all.

Sorry, but these were music industry studies, apparently commissioned to determine the market (and probably the extent of illegal downloads) for MP3 format tune sales.

The trades jsut reported on the studies.
 
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