Music

[Tookiebird]

Rude?

I think not. Sometimes the truth hurts.

It hurts radio but not me.

I’ve heard all the claims that different mediums would kill off terrestrial radio. Guess what, that still hasn’t happened! You can march down Main Street screaming at the top of your lungs that instant gratification will be the death of longevity all you want, but as history has shown, the death of free radio remains a pipe dream.

I didn't say that now did I? I said: "Radio won't die but it will no longer be a place for music." Radio does not control the music selection any longer. We do! There's been a major paradigm shift 180 degrees. Best to figure it out as not to get bulldozed by it.

Robert,

I think you ran off The Laffer. ;D

 

[Tookiebird]

The conversation has been held before about "Music research/music testing" It's over done. Who can truly say 150 people packed into an auditorium is a representation of what the majority wants?

Nope. What a music test does is tell you what your audience or prospective audience wants. If properly recruited, just like Arbitron, less than 100 people will be able to tell you with total replicability what they want and do not want to hear on your station.

Such a sample is nearly 100% accurate for its intended purpose.

You can worda question to skew a predictable response. Talk show hosts do that all the time. It's manipulating the results. Having David or other consultants answer the question is not really answering the question but justifying it in their sphere of influence.

In my present position, I am NOT a consultant. And we spend hours on every questionnaire to eliminate bias of all kinds. And music tests are simply "score the song" and do not involve questions. We get demos and listening habits, but only to be able to sort the results on age, sex, ethnicity, etc.

The old methods worked and can still work if delegation of duties ,or laziness to carry out the said duty of finding out "A" station's audience come to an abrupt halt. It won't though because of the "lobbying" of consultants to keep their own jobs,the will of the boardroom full of non-broadcasters,and finally the sales folks who basically have taken over programming.

Sellers where I work have no influence on programming. The only palce where sales comes in is when a format is being designed, to keep it from having unsalable diemos (12-17 or 55+, mostly)

Consultants are generally the first to ask for regular research, to make sure the station is totally on track. A consultant may see 60 to 100 tests a year, so they know how to interpret them. A PD, on the other hand, may not see 60 tests in thier lifetime, so the consultant is a big help.

You have heard the stories of XM, Sirius still operating in the red. Hell its only been available for what 5 years?(approx)

So? trends move infinitely faster today than ever, and 5 years is an eternity for a start-up business.

How long did it take ABC,CBS,NBC and FM itself to finally operate in the black?

When Paley built CBS, it was profitable from day one. He extended the programming form WCAU in Philadelphia to other markets, building an ad hoc web as he did so. It made money instantly.

FM is a bad example. Operators who tried made money. It took the FCC to make the band viable, though.

I don't see what your point is. How does this change rado research from a good thing to a bad one?

The majority a bit longer. So if satellite is doing so poorly how come sales of receivers have gone up,and increases every month?

Untrue. XM is being investigated foy inflating numbers, and they projected a sharp downturn in new subscribers in August. The stock, 52 weeks ago over $36, is now at $12. Sales are off, the stock is off, and the losses continue... and the SEC is investigating them. What is wrong with this picture.

The audience wants to escape the the tight playlist and the saturation of spots. They want to be entertain and hear music they no longer get from their radio and hear an announcer who knows how to entertain and inform.

Most listeners like the rotations on terrestrial radio, they like that it is free, and it serves the purpose nicely. Most listeners do not want a list padded with mediocre deep cuts, and they do not, mostly, want much unfamiliar new music.

On the other hand, those who like oldies and standards should by XM radios, as terrestiral radio will not do this kind of money losing format.

Consultants and fans of consultants plus those who have been in radio post 1996 will shoot that opinion down as "that was then" They are the "spindoctors" of todays broadcaster,ignoring the true situation and trying to place a bandaid on a Hemorhage. The audience is dwindling, and you can blame satellite and internet all you want. You would be right,because the audience is leaving radio,because radio has left them.

In the core demos, 18-54, the reach of radio is less than 1% below the levels of 20 years ago. Go find a new argument, as that one is just a lie.




David,

Listeners overwhelmingly react negitively to lists less than 250 songs. 500-700 is the norm anything over that you're looking for problems. At CC most of the sucessful oldies stations are playing 300-500 songs.

 

[radiodial]

TookieBird has a quoting problem. Can't tell what he is squawking at!

It isn't Rocket Science Tookie!

 

[Tookiebird]

David,

I've worked with enough consultants to know many of them use the same lists as all the others and many times without looking at all the research. As a matter of fact i know consultants who will not play songs on the researched list or they may add songs. Mike McVay's oldies list is completely different from Alan Burns list and at times they have been in the same market researching the cities listeners. Go figure.

 

[Tookiebird]

TookieBird has a quoting problem. Can't tell what he is squawking at!

It isn't Rocket Science Tookie!


Agreed.

 

[Tookiebird]

TookieBird has a quoting problem. Can't tell what he is squawking at!

It isn't Rocket Science Tookie!


Sorry was in a hurry with my posts ;D

 

[davideduardo]

David,

Listeners overwhelmingly react negitively to lists less than 250 songs. 500-700 is the norm anything over that you're looking for problems. At CC most of the sucessful oldies stations are playing 300-500 songs.

Listeners do not overwhelmingly react negatively. Different formats have different lists. A hip hop or CHR or reggaetón station may hve fewer than 150 songs. A hot AC may be 200 to 250.

For nearly every format, 500 or over is too many. With today's niche radio formats, there are not 500 consensus hits in most formats.

#1 music station in LA has 300 titles. It has been top 3 or 4 25-54 for a decade, too.

 

[VOXPOP]

Radio is not a music collection. It is a created mood, with very precisely tailored segues, use of talkent, promotions and concerts, a morning show, and songs. An iPod or an old 45 rpm player did not create moods, but they allowed the individual to listen to one song over and over again, if the wanted.

Radio has always coexisted with personal music collections.

Radio never controlled the music. Radio constrols the mood, the flavor, the texture. And ther eis a lot more to it than just the songs... it is the mix, the jocks, the intensity of repetition and much more.

[/quote]

Extremely well said. Unfortunately, I'll guess that less than 2% of the people on this board ever worked as a jock "back in the day" when we picked the music and in what order we wanted to play it. Or came up with a promotion while hanging out with each other or someone in the community. Or knew how to take the Drake format, Paul Drew's format or Gordon McLendon's format and make it their own. Or talked a music director into adding a song. Or worked for a p.d. who went by his gut & the seat of his pants and knocked off the stodgy #1. Video didn't kill the radio star, but consolidation, syndication & imitation are doing it.

 

[davideduardo]

Extremely well said. Unfortunately, I'll guess that less than 2% of the people on this board ever worked as a jock "back in the day" when we picked the music and in what order we wanted to play it. Or came up with a promotion while hanging out with each other or someone in the community. Or knew how to take the Drake format, Paul Drew's format or Gordon McLendon's format and make it their own. Or talked a music director into adding a song. Or worked for a p.d. who went by his gut & the seat of his pants and knocked off the stodgy #1. Video didn't kill the radio star, but consolidation, syndication & imitation are doing it.

While you and I could disagree about the effects of consolidation, the things you describe are so magical that I'd rather think a while about them.

One of may anecdotes of a personal kind is reading in Broadcasting, which took a month to get to Ecuador, of the new KHJ format and its instant success. I flew to LA and listened for several days. At the time, I was intimidated by the "bigness" of it, and never visitied the station itself. Yet, years later, I would work in the same office with Ron Jacobs and Tom Rounds (KFRC) and still do a weekly project for TR! KHJ was so exciting to me because I was able to take the "structure" of the format and still preserve personality on my 1-year-old CHR.

Another story was visiting WQAM in Miami (Miami was not as intimidating as LA) and being introduced to Todd Storz himslef, just shortly before his death. He was fascinated with a 17-year-old who was building a Top 40 station of his own, and spent several hours giving me the quick course on how to do it. Even then, he cautioned me about playing my favorites vs. those of the audience, and about playing to many unknown (new) songs.

Of course, a few years earlier, I spent an entire day in the WLS lobby getting every jock, including Holman and Biondi, to sign a WLS souvenir card.

Fortunately, I work in a sector of radio where listeners still do wait in the lobby to see the talent. And where we actually have talent, all day long.

And I can remember playing nearly every oldie as a current!

 

[Robert Bass]

Yep, with my trusty new bulldozer from Acme Construction Equipment! ;D

R

Robert,

I think you ran off The Laffer. ;D

 

[Tookiebird]

David,

Listeners overwhelmingly react negitively to lists less than 250 songs. 500-700 is the norm anything over that you're looking for problems. At CC most of the sucessful oldies stations are playing 300-500 songs.

Listeners do not overwhelmingly react negatively. Different formats have different lists. A hip hop or CHR or reggaetón station may hve fewer than 150 songs. A hot AC may be 200 to 250.

For nearly every format, 500 or over is too many. With today's niche radio formats, there are not 500 consensus hits in most formats.

#1 music station in LA has 300 titles. It has been top 3 or 4 25-54 for a decade, too.

Dave,

Was mostly talking about oldies. Hot in LA has 450. CBS-FM in the glory days had 700. Kool in Phoenix had 700 when they hit #1 several years ago.

I use to program chr. We played 250. Also did HOT AC had 200.Had 500 in AC. All stations #1 12+, 18-34 and top 3 25-54 A lot of stations have 1000 songs but rotate 300. The key is rotating.

 

[davideduardo]

Dave,

Was mostly talking about oldies. Hot in LA has 450. CBS-FM in the glory days had 700. Kool in Phoenix had 700 when they hit #1 several years ago.

I use to program chr. We played 250. Also did HOT AC had 200.Had 500 in AC. All stations #1 12+, 18-34 and top 3 25-54 A lot of stations have 1000 songs but rotate 300. The key is rotating.

Since I have known KRTH, which is when "my" transmitter was at thier studio site in 1992...t hey had about 350 tunes in regular rotation. they did lots of special weekends and such, but the base library was very limited.

Now, under Jhani Kaye, they seem to have expanded, but not by much.

When I started, CHR was called Top 40 and we played 40 songs and a couple of pick hits. Period. Maybe the problem is too many songs today.

And, as I said, the #1 music station in LA in 12+ and 25-54 has about 280 songs... as they have had for the last 12 years.

 

[Tookiebird]

Dave,

Was mostly talking about oldies. Hot in LA has 450. CBS-FM in the glory days had 700. Kool in Phoenix had 700 when they hit #1 several years ago.

I use to program chr. We played 250. Also did HOT AC had 200.Had 500 in AC. All stations #1 12+, 18-34 and top 3 25-54 A lot of stations have 1000 songs but rotate 300. The key is rotating.

Since I have known KRTH, which is when "my" transmitter was at thier studio site in 1992...t hey had about 350 tunes in regular rotation. they did lots of special weekends and such, but the base library was very limited.

Now, under Jhani Kaye, they seem to have expanded, but not by much.

When I started, CHR was called Top 40 and we played 40 songs and a couple of pick hits. Period. Maybe the problem is too many songs today.

And, as I said, the #1 music station in LA in 12+ and 25-54 has about 280 songs... as they have had for the last 12 years.


Many of the CHR stations of the 70's and 80's were pretty much broken up in two styles. Teen top 40 about 40 songs. Sometimes more sometimes less with very few recurrents and no older songs. Then there was Mainstrean top 40, Adult top 40, playing the top 40 with about 30-60 recurrents and anywhere from 100-200 older songs. Then there were the hybrid top 40's: Dance, Churban, Urban, rock and many of those formats had anywhere from 40-200 songs. All successful. You play what your audience wants. Just because you play more than 200 oldies doesn't mean 201-700 are stiffs.

 

[klifhanger]

As I said before David will not truly answer the question,without spinning it as most consultants do. According to Dr.Frank Stanton's Papers (Will Paley's #2) and Columbia University's COLLECTION of CBS documents,etc. CBS DID NOT OPERATE IN THE BLACK until the eve of World War 2. They were then financially able to steal a stable of stars from NBC ( Burns and Allen,Jack Benny,etc) soon after the war was over.

When opinions get in the way of facts,history is lost. BTW the above source was NOT opinion.

One mor thing ,yes the SEC is investigating XM,however resources OUTSIDe of XM and SIRIUS show a definite uptick in the sales of receivers.
The investigation BTW was asked for, and LOBBIED BY THE NAB an opponent of XM.
When you leave information out,the item takes a more slanted path.

 

[davideduardo]

As I said before David will not truly answer the question,without spinning it as most consultants do. According to Dr.Frank Stanton's Papers (Will Paley's #2) and Columbia University's COLLECTION of CBS documents,etc. CBS DID NOT OPERATE IN THE BLACK until the eve of World War 2. They were then financially able to steal a stable of stars from NBC ( Burns and Allen,Jack Benny,etc) soon after the war was over.

When opinions get in the way of facts,history is lost. BTW the above source was NOT opinion.

One mor thing ,yes the SEC is investigating XM,however resources OUTSIDe of XM and SIRIUS show a definite uptick in the sales of receivers.
The investigation BTW was asked for, and LOBBIED BY THE NAB an opponent of XM.
When you leave information out,the item takes a more slanted path.

1. CBS made money from the time Paley bought WCAU to "save ad money" for his company. CBS as a company made money. The network operation may not have made money, but the stations did. Plenty of US corporations have divisions that make no money, but support the revenue getting ability of the parent. This is hair splitting.

2. XM, in its own Q2 earnings call, revised its guidance for Q3 and Q4 due to soft receiver and subscription sales.

3. The SEC investigation was based on complaints from several institutional investors, not the NAB.

4. The NAB is not an opponant of XM. It is an opponant of XM doing things it is not licensed to do.

 

[johnqdoe]

I'd be interested to see how many listeners these formats on XM and Sirius have at any given time. DOes it take a nationwide audience for them to gain a smany listener as a single station in a major market??? Do they even have THAT many????

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Music & CBS

Further on CBS

From a Timeline on CBS taken from financial reports:
1927
United Independent Broadcasters, Incorporated debuts with network of 16 independent radio stations

1928

William S. Paley acquires United Independent Broadcasters Incorporated, changes name to Columbia Broadcasting System, Incorporated, and becomes President of the Company.

1930

CBS has 400 employees; net profits total $.9 million; net sales total $7.2 million

1935

CBS becomes nation's largest radio network.

1937

CBS stock first listed on the New York Stock Exchange.

1940

CBS has 2,000 employees; net profits total $5.0 million; net sales total $36.2 million.

From Historian Elizabeth McLeod and sourced to Radio Digest:
One of the first things the new owner did was clean up the messy corporate structure. The Columbia Broadcasting Company was dissolved, but its name was kept -- and on 1/3/29, United Independent Broadcasters officially changed its name to Columbia Broadcasting System Inc. Judson and Coats retained Judson Radio Program Corporation, along with their minority interest in the new CBS -- but from here on, Paley was in control. The network lost over $380,000 thru the end of 1928, but it would never have another losing year.

The article in Fortune of May 28, 1938 also supports near instant profitability. I have this issue in my collection.

 

[klifhanger]

I was Going by the papers of Dr. Stanton,and Paley himself in the Columbia University archives. Since it comes from them directly,I will differ to them.
Apparently there were "revisonist" consultants in the 30's who were prophetic enough to forecast your arguement,and knew you would have them in your "Personal Collection".

Next Up: Sarnoff was in favor of Consolidation! Marconi forcasted tighter playlists and syndication as a means to control the ether of the airwaves!
Edwin Armstrong predicts FM must use IBOC in the future in order to save itself from IPODS.......moving on.

 

[Tookiebird]

I was Going by the papers of Dr. Stanton,and Paley himself in the Columbia University archives. Since it comes from them directly,I will differ to them.
Apparently there were "revisonist" consultants in the 30's who were prophetic enough to forecast your arguement,and knew you would have them in your "Personal Collection".

Next Up: Sarnoff was in favor of Consolidation! Marconi forcasted tighter playlists and syndication as a means to control the ether of the airwaves!
Edwin Armstrong predicts FM must use IBOC in the future in order to save itself from IPODS.......moving o


LOL!!!

 

[davideduardo]

I was Going by the papers of Dr. Stanton,and Paley himself in the Columbia University archives. Since it comes from them directly,I will differ to them.
Apparently there were "revisonist" consultants in the 30's who were prophetic enough to forecast your arguement,and knew you would have them in your "Personal Collection".

Next Up: Sarnoff was in favor of Consolidation! Marconi forcasted tighter playlists and syndication as a means to control the ether of the airwaves!
Edwin Armstrong predicts FM must use IBOC in the future in order to save itself from IPODS.......moving on.

I would prefer going by the actual financials, particularly after CBS was listed on the NYSE in 1937. The fact is that CBS as a company, including the O&O stations made money the first year it was "today's" CBS, which was 1930.

Duopoly was allowed in those years. Many markets had two AMs owned by the same operator, with ones like KFI and KECA (Earle C. Anthony) and Aren Bulova's 1130 and 1280 in NY being examples.