New at the Sound

[Zeb Norris]

You've made the ethnic point again and again DE, and I'm sure you're correct about the numbers... yet owners continue to program some stations for white people.

The white audience may be small, but that doesn't mean reaching it can't be profitable... does it?

I mean if not, wouldn't all stations in LA target Hispanics?

 

[Zeb Norris]

Oh, BTW, I meant to mention that the programmer who started to turn KFOG around when KRQR was going down was the same guy who launched "The Sound"... Greg Solk.

He's the same guy who concieved of The Drive in Chicago. I'm a fan.

 

[davideduardo]

You've made the ethnic point again and again DE, and I'm sure you're correct about the numbers... yet owners continue to program some stations for white people.

The white audience may be small, but that doesn't mean reaching it can't be profitable... does it?

Most Hispanics, per the Census, are "white" also which is why to exclude Hispanics we use "non-Hispanic white2 as the term. Most owners know they have to index well with English domiant Hispanics to do well in LA. Otherwise, you have a 0.9 share like The Sound just got a minute ago for November.

[/quote]I mean if not, wouldn't all stations in LA target Hispanics?
[/quote]

A pure non-Hispanic white format is AAA, and in LA, to a greater extent, Country. With only about a 25% market base, it is tough to do it. And the big LA staitons have huge Hispanic listenership... KROQ's cume is about 25% Hispanic, KIIS's is over 50%. AAA has so little appeal among Hispanics (except Jerry Garcia, but he does not have a meter) that you can say it is anon-Hispanic format. It's also almost not used by Blacks, and newer immigrants will not get it either, unless there is an AAA is Riga or Tehran I don't know about.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

The Sound's PPM#s are abysmal

ZERO point NINE !!!??!!

PLEASE please please do not call this station 'AAA' fer cryin' out loud. Nobody knows what a AAA-centric station in SoCal will do in the year 2008 or 2009 because there ISN'T one today!!


Playlist last two hours:

11:01am - Little Wing by Stevie Ray Vaughan wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:08am - Jean Genie by David Bowie wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:12am - *You Are The Best Thing by Ray Lamontagne wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:19am - Bell Bottom Blues by Derek And The Dominos wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:24am - *Pop Song 89 by R.e.m. wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:28am - One Headlight by Wallflowers wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:33am - Black Magic Woman, Gypsy Queen by Santana wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:38am - Trouble by Coldplay wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:46am - I've Seen All Good People by Yes wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:52am - I'm Yours by Jason Mraz wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:56am - A Million Miles Away by Plimsouls wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
11:59am - Stop Your Sobbing by Pretenders wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:02pm - Driven To Tears by Police wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:05pm - *And It Stoned Me by Van Morrison wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:10pm - Stadium Arcadium by Red Hot Chili Peppers wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:19pm - Trampled Under Foot by Led Zeppelin wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:25pm - Second Hand Love by Pete Townshend wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:29pm - Mrs. Robinson by Simon And Garfunkel wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:33pm - You Get What You Give by New Radicals wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:38pm - Hey Nineteen by Steely Dan wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:43pm - *Strange Overtones by David Byrne & Brian Eno wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:50pm - Drivers Seat by Sniff 'n' The Tears wiki | Buy this song: iTunes
12:56pm - Say Hello 2 Heaven by Temple Of The Dog wiki | Buy this song: iTunes

The songs above that I consider to be exclusive to the adult alternative format are indicated by an asterisk. 4 out of 23. The others could be heard elsewhere either on KROQ; KLOS; JACK; KRTH; KBIG MY FM; KYSR.

Black Magic Woman??? Mrs FREAKIN' Robinson!!??? Classic Yes?? Led Zep's Trample Under Foot (which is in REGULAR rotation)!!????

Without looking at the #s for the cume, I would imagine they'd be down from October. Which makes it every single month it has gone down since PPMs were initiated in (when?) July?

This is truly disgusting for such a promise of "Daring to be Different"!!
I am really pissed...................................

 

[davideduardo]

Re: The Sound's PPM#s are abysmal

Without looking at the #s for the cume, I would imagine they'd be down from October. Which makes it every single month it has gone down since PPMs were initiated in (when?) July?

September was the first currency book, and they cumed 672,000 there. In Novenmber, they cumed 697,000. the difference is well within the margin of error, so we can say that have been totally flat on cume (which is not what sales are based on).

In share, they have had a 0.9 or a 1.0 since September, too.

No growth, but certainly not dropping "every single month" since the PPM started (which was September, not July).

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Picky picky picky David!

Tell me, which is better cume or share? ...I would guess share... How does a station for example KYSR get higher cume than KROQ but KROQ gets a higher share? The biggest discrepancy in position# again is KFI's share vs cume

 

[davideduardo]

Picky picky picky David!

Tell me, which is better cume or share? ...I would guess share... How does a station for example KYSR get higher cume than KROQ but KROQ gets a higher share? The biggest discrepancy in position# again is KFI's share vs cume

There is nothing picky about distinguishing between cume and share. Cume is only used in sales to generate reach and frequency, which is not done on every campaign. What is used to buy is the number of persons listening on average, poarticularly in each daypart. Share, rating and AQH persons are all the same data, expressed against different metrics.

There are three ways to get the same share:
1. Low cume and high time spent listening (Smooth Jazz, Urban AC, talk, religion)
2. Average cume and average TSL (Hot AC, Many country stations, etc.)
3. High cume and low TSL (CHRs are best example)

Arbitron, whether meter or diary, measures time spent listening and cume. Share (AQH Persons and Rating) are derived from these two.

KYSR and KROQ have about the same cume (it's way inside margin of error) but KYSR gets 1:45 in weekly listening per cumer, while KROQ gets 2:30... nearly 50% more. So, the shares on KROQ are much higher... buy about 40%.

KFI has low cume... about 1.1 million. But the 5 hour TSL is the highest in the market for an on-air signal. So they get a big share, produced by fewer persons listening more.

This is not a PPM thing... the math on cume and TSL works the same with the diary and always has.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

There is nothing picky about distinguishing between cume and share.

JESUS Christ, my friend, I was making fun of you about when the ratings came out. I said July, you corrected me. Although I know the Official ratings didn't start til whenever, you should know that I know there's a difference between cume and share. THATS ALL, my friend!!

 

[davideduardo]

JESUS Christ, my friend, I was making fun of you about when the ratings came out. I said July, you corrected me. Although I know the Official ratings didn't start til whenever, you should know that I know there's a difference between cume and share. THATS ALL, my friend!!

Generally, I don't even answer people who use profanity, particularly using the name of Jesus in that way. You may not be religious, but many others believe and faith is a part of their life.

If you want someone to not misunderstand you, read your post before sending it... I assumed you were talking about cume and share, not about dates as nowhere in your post was the date referenced.

The pre-September months of June, July and August were in preparation for launch of the PPM; the data may represent an incomplete or non proportional sample. It's not an issue of being official or not... its a matter of the earlier months being public tests prior to currency status.

 

[scooty430]

The Sound is without question classic rock, not AAA. Any discussions regarding the viability of AAA are completely irrelevant if you are discussing the music at 100.3.

A true AAA (or roots rock / quality rock) station would not be a ratings powerhouse, but COULD do better if programmed well, due to the heavy presence of industry people / music people, and the cosmopolitan nature of L.A. But....they did not give it a chance to be something special and buzzworthy, and thus it is just another faceless corporate rock station.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Can't disagree with a word you said, Scooty.

And to David, my apologies for the use of our Lord's name. I just got caught up in the heat of the moment.

Not that I listen anymore, I noticed The Sound has played (since 5 pm) Peter Gabriel, old Mellencamp, the Doors, Bad Company (sheesh!!), Steve Winwood, and John Lennnon. Other songs by Snow Patrol, The Clash, the Pumpkins, Coldplay all songs played by KROQ and/or KYSR. The only adult alternative song was Gone Gone Gone-Robert Plant and Alison Kraus [LOL even that song features an old classic rocker].

 

[4UH8SIMBKAGN]

The Sound is without question classic rock, not AAA. Any discussions regarding the viability of AAA are completely irrelevant if you are discussing the music at 100.3.

A true AAA (or roots rock / quality rock) station would not be a ratings powerhouse, but COULD do better if programmed well, due to the heavy presence of industry people / music people, and the cosmopolitan nature of L.A. But....they did not give it a chance to be something special and buzzworthy, and thus it is just another faceless corporate rock station.

I wouldn't call it classic rock either. It's a MESS. That would be the closest description to its format. Morphing to a true classic rock might do it some better.

AAA won't work in L.A.. It doesn't matter how well it is programmed. It can never achieve any ratings nor any interest from agencies. Country "industry" people have been pushing country in this town for 25 years and still it goes nowhere.

 

[davideduardo]

The Sound is without question classic rock, not AAA. Any discussions regarding the viability of AAA are completely irrelevant if you are discussing the music at 100.3.

AAA is whatever the core in a particular market says it is. It's one of the least consistent formats, market to market. And one of the worst performing nationally, with only a few pockets of big partisanship. Try to count the number of successful AAA's that have launched in since the early to mid 90's.

A true AAA (or roots rock / quality rock) station would not be a ratings powerhouse, but COULD do better if programmed well, due to the heavy presence of industry people / music people, and the cosmopolitan nature of L.A.

There are 13,000,000 people in LA. How many do you think are in the industry who also like AAA? Maybe 10,000? Less?

But....they did not give it a chance to be something special and buzzworthy, and thus it is just another faceless corporate rock station.

If any company is NOT corporate it is Bonneville. That's a company that gives days off to do community work!

But, of course, anything you disagree with is "corporate."

 

[Zeb Norris]

DavidEduardo,

You keep making my own points for me without realizing it!

You say "AAA is whatever the core in a particular market says it is." Which is true to a degree. A better way of putting might be that AAA is a flexible format, and that the execution of the format varies depending on local market conditions and goals. In any event, this mean that The Sound could well include gobs of music that appeals to Latino listeners and still be AAA. There goes your entire "too white" argument.

You claim that in Chicago, WDRV is about tied in billing with WXRT. But the thing is, WDRV has better than double the arbitron numbers of WXRT (6+ Share WDRV is tied for 4th with a 4.7, while WXRT is tied for 20th with a 2.1). So it seems rather obvious to me why Bonneville, which owns WDRV, decided to go with AAA in LA.

You are obviously very knowledgeable about demographics and radio, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the point of the exercise is revenue, not ratings glory. If Bonneville can generate good revenue without making the huge investments required to get into the top 5 or 10 in Los Angeles, they'll meet their goal.

You can critique their programming in pursuit of the goal of generating revenue all you want, but f this talk about how it will "never" work in LA only applies if you are of the opinion that "working" means top 10 Arbitron performance. I rather think Bonneville knew going in THAT wasn't likely. So perhaps their definition of what "works" is different from yours. After all, there are 55 stations showing in Arbitron in LA. It's blindingly obvious that 45 of those will not be in the top 10. People within Bonneville who make business plans tend to grasp such details.

 

[davideduardo]

You say "AAA is whatever the core in a particular market says it is." Which is true to a degree. A better way of putting might be that AAA is a flexible format, and that the execution of the format varies depending on local market conditions and goals. In any event, this mean that The Sound could well include gobs of music that appeals to Latino listeners and still be AAA. There goes your entire "too white" argument.

There are not "gobs" or even "dribbles" of even psuedo-AAA material that is both of strong Hispanic appeal and which also is liked passionately by non-Hispanic whites. There is no AAA / Rock heritage among Hispanics in a market like LA where Hispanics are over 60% Spanish Dominant and there is only a very small third generation and beyond component.

For starters, name me 100 songs... nah, name 20... that qualify for AAA that were widely heard in Latin America.

You claim that in Chicago, WDRV is about tied in billing with WXRT. But the thing is, WDRV has better than double the arbitron numbers of WXRT (6+ Share WDRV is tied for 4th with a 4.7, while WXRT is tied for 20th with a 2.1). So it seems rather obvious to me why Bonneville, which owns WDRV, decided to go with AAA in LA.

WXRT's 2007 billing is about 20% off over the last 4 years, while WDRV is up 33% in the same period. There is a degree of latency in both increasing proprtionally with numbers or in losing revenue as they decline based on the way agencies buy using multi-book averages.

We have to realize we have only had currency for PPM for 90 days. In the diary, on which historical billing data is based, the two in 25-54 were essentially tied in Spring 2008. So having them, in 2007, tied in revenue is quite normal... they were, in fact, very close to each other.

As agencies start using the PPM, XRT will fall in revenue share while The Drive will likely increase.

You are obviously very knowledgeable about demographics and radio, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the point of the exercise is revenue, not ratings glory. If Bonneville can generate good revenue without making the huge investments required to get into the top 5 or 10 in Los Angeles, they'll meet their goal.

They can't generate good revenue with a 0.9 12+. And, as the Chicago example shows, ratings (in sales demos) and revenue share track quite closely for music stations.

You can critique their programming in pursuit of the goal of generating revenue all you want, but f this talk about how it will "never" work in LA only applies if you are of the opinion that "working" means top 10 Arbitron performance.

There has never been a station with a 0.8 share 25-54 that made money in LA. And Sound has been here for long enough to show a growth pattern, and it has not. This was the same issue with KSCA up until 1997's flip. As the market grew more and more ethnic / immigrant, there was less and less cume to convert to listeners. Sound has been relatively agressive in promotion, in a time when most stations in LA are doing nearly none... yet they don't grow.

To get decent billing in LA, you really have to be in the top 20 to 25 stations in sales demos. Sound is 32nd, tied with the separate rating for KOST's web stream.

I rather think Bonneville knew going in THAT wasn't likely. So perhaps their definition of what "works" is different from yours. After all, there are 55 stations showing in Arbitron in LA. It's blindingly obvious that 45 of those will not be in the top 10. People within Bonneville who make business plans tend to grasp such details.

To get a reasonable return on investment on their hundred mil or so investment, they need to bill around $18 to $20 million. With a 0.8, they might bill $6 to $7 million. That will barely pay the costs, even if they have no debt to service.

Of course, introducing any new format in today's troubled economy is tough, no matter how well a station does.

 

[Zeb Norris]

For starters, name me 100 songs... nah, name 20... that qualify for AAA that were widely heard in Latin America.

No. Learn some manners dude. You don't get to set tasks for me. You get to pontificate all you want... and with over 14 THOUSAND posts, that appears to be quite a bit LOL.

At any rate, I don't need to. As you pointed out, KROQ does fairly well with Hispanics. Yet I rather doubt they research what got exposure in Latin America.

As to your other points, you may be right, and the folks at Bonneville may be right. I don't claim to know. I do know that they're good broadcasters. I don't know if you have any clients in LA or how they're doing, but I hope that if you do they're succesful. Really I do.

Because it's poor form to wish failure on others.

And that's my final post here. Goodnight and good luck.

 

[davideduardo]

No. Learn some manners dude. You don't get to set tasks for me. You get to pontificate all you want... and with over 14 THOUSAND posts, that appears to be quite a bit LOL.

That, like the rhetorical question, was the "rhetorical request." AAA does poorly among Hispanics because Hispanics, wherever they are, don't particularly care for AAA music. And FMs in Latin America play loads of English language music, some playing nothing but.

At any rate, I don't need to. As you pointed out, KROQ does fairly well with Hispanics. Yet I rather doubt they research what got exposure in Latin America.

Again, you totally missed my point which was the lack of Hispanic appeal of most AAA music.

KROQ, last I checked, was not AAA. While we all know there would be some crossover cuts, it's what an AAA plays that an Alternative station does not play that would keep many Hispanics who use KROQ far, far away from the AAA.

As to your other points, you may be right, and the folks at Bonneville may be right. I don't claim to know. I do know that they're good broadcasters.

On that we agree. And they are in an enviable position of not having, to a greater extent, financial pressures of the kind affecting the whole economy today.

I don't know if you have any clients in LA or how they're doing, but I hope that if you do they're succesful. Really I do.

While they are not "clients" I work with three of the top 10 25-54, 18-34 and 12+ stations in LA, per November PPM.

Because it's poor form to wish failure on others.

I don't "wish" failure on The Sound. I am simply predicting what to me seems inevitable. Closing in on a year of AAA, and no growth in cume or TSL. I witnessed the last days of AAA on KSCA as we prepared for the LMA, and, while the signal was to blame in most people's minds, the lack of growth of TSL and the lack of "converts" in cume was also their concern. The Sound has an almost identical signal to KSCA, and it's 11 years later... even fewer potential listeners.

 

[Big E]

Dont you know by know...DE is always right!

 

[davideduardo]

Dont you know by know...DE is always right!

Actually, in this case the ones that are "right" are American Community Survey, Arbitron, and the history of AAA in LA.

 

[Big E]

Sorry, sarcasm doesn't come across well in written form. ;D