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New Chicago oldies station WZZN-FM

Re: Chicago oldies

> And in 1997 there wasn't a station called "The Drive"
> playing classic hits and taking at least SOME of their
> listeners away. And there wasn't an AM oldies station taking
> at least SOME of their listeners away.

No other station has seen it audience move out of the sales demos so totally correlated with the passage of time.

WRLL does not bill with the same advertisers as the transactional stations, and the WRLL format was a mix of standards and olllllllddddd oldies, probably not a factor.

The fact is that every station competes with every other. WJMK was off against the market, and off against historic billing. They had a bigger peoblem than competitors... their problem was that the 47 year olds of 1997 are now out of the sales demos.
 
Re: Chicago oldies

> The fact is that every station competes with every other.
> WJMK was off against the market, and off against historic
> billing. They had a bigger peoblem than competitors... their
> problem was that the 47 year olds of 1997 are now out of the
> sales demos.
>

True about the 47 year olds of 1997 - but what about the 47 year olds of 2005? I was a former loyal WJMK oldies listener (during my 20's and early 30's) but I stopped listening. The reason I stopped listening is primarily because the station's playlist shrank and shrank, to the point where I could turn the station on and almost predict which tunes I'd hear. Very stale. I liked the personalities for the most part, although I thought the morning show was terrible and hardly played any music. But I still like Dick Biondi.

Thus the reason I gave up on the station wasn't the age of the songs, (considering that I started listening when they played mostly songs that hit while I was in diapers) but rather the lack of variety. Nobody likes a perceived playlist of 30 songs.

(For the record, my age currently puts me in a "desirable" sales demo.)
 
Re: Chicago oldies

>
> (For the record, my age currently puts me in a "desirable"
> sales demo.)
>

You are the exception that makes the rule. When the composition of a station's audience is predominantly over 55, buyers base pricing only on the portion in the demo they are after. This means that the older the audience gets, the more of it the station gives away on every buy as there are no takers for the older part and they must price as if the 25-54 was ALL they had.

Most oldies listeners like oldies because the songs have memories attached and are part of the person's life. You are not part of that group, and are not a significant audience segment for an oldies station.
 
Re: ABC... stupid,clueless or stunting?

> I am wondering if ABC is simply stupid, does not get radio
> or whether they are stunting in some way in a transition to
> something else.
>

It could be, but why don't you ask their consultant? Or are
you just mad they didn't hire you?
I figure ABC can afford the best. Maybe thats why you didn't
get the gig.

Oh and by the way David go back to our last thread and see
my answer to you.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SundayOldiesJukebox.com

King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
 
Re: Sticks and stones and other cheap shots.

> > I am wondering if ABC is simply stupid, does not get radio
>
> > or whether they are stunting in some way in a transition
> to
> > something else.
> >
>
> It could be, but why don't you ask their consultant? Or are
> you just mad they didn't hire you?

I don't do consulting in the Continental USA, and have competitive conflicts in Chicago, anyway.

> I figure ABC can afford the best. Maybe thats why you didn't
> get the gig.

Nice try. I do not think, seriously, they needed a consultant to plug in a satellite... and they don't seem to use outside consultants, anyway.
 
Re: Lost and don't care.

> Oh and by the way David go back to our last thread and see
> my answer to you.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Re: ABC... stupid,clueless or stunting?

> Another opinion
>
>
http://www.nydail> ynews.com/entertainment/ent_radio/story/351853p-300070c.html
>

That is not a "different opinion" but, rather, the creator of the syndicated format suggesting that advertisers are wrong. Unfortunately for those who believe that 55-64 (at least) should be a viable demo, nobody in the marketing departments of national brands and agency accounts is reading this type of article... and the fact remains that most goods and services are merketed at a younger demo right from the design stage.

PDs don't have any say in the advertising targeting of major advertisers.
 
Re: ABC... stupid,clueless or stunting?

The fact that nobody in the marketing department is reading this type of article doesn’t make their arguments correct.. Your answer is, I assume, conventional wisdom in the advertising industry. I am not a business person, just a regular human, and I respectfully disagree.

There are hundreds of products new enough to the marketplace that it would be almost impossible for anyone to establish a brand loyalty. Many of these products, digital cameras for example, are driven by an ever changing and improving technology. The temptation to upgrade would be strong, no matter what the age of the consumer.

There are untold numbers of other products whose appeal crosses the demographic spectrum. The ever changing list of airline carriers for example. Or maybe DVD’s of just about any movie or TV show ever created.

And even if all of the studies are correct and older people are in fact a hard sell, why not use advertising to reinforce their current buying habits? Encourage them to continue driving a Chevy and not lose the next sale to Toyota.

The baby boomers and generation Jones are a huge segment of the population. They have an enormous amount of spendable cash. Failure to even attempt to tap into that wealth is sheer stupidity.

The mantra: over fifty five is not a desirable demo, Oldies radio is not a viable format. Orwell must be required reading during the interview in the advertising world.

jc
 
Re: Mistaken impressions on demos and advertising.

> The fact that nobody in the marketing department is reading
> this type of article doesn’t make their arguments correct..
> Your answer is, I assume, conventional wisdom in the
> advertising industry. I am not a business person, just a
> regular human, and I respectfully disagree.

First mistake... the ad industry does not determine the marketing goals or target for products or services. The manufacturerer or provider does.

Let's take the "Gold Star" marketing company in the US, Proctor and Gamble. every roduct is designed, researched and packaged for a very specific age group, sometimes even down to lifestyle considerations. A particular H&BA product will appeal, say, to women between 24 and 42, and everything about the marketing of the product, whatever it is, is focused on that group and anything that is not in that group is ignored as it means inefficient usage of resources.
>
> There are hundreds of products new enough to the
> marketplace that it would be almost impossible for anyone to
> establish a brand loyalty. Many of these products, digital
> cameras for example, are driven by an ever changing and
> improving technology. The temptation to upgrade would be
> strong, no matter what the age of the consumer.

Yet each product is a combination of technology and marketing. Different brands inspire different consumer groups, whether by age or the degree to which the consumers are on the cutting edge or in a safety zone. Sony is safe, but more expensive, for example. Canon is for pros and wannabees, etc. All these images are cultivated and the products and line extensions are calculated to reinforce each brand niche.
>
> There are untold numbers of other products whose appeal
> crosses the demographic spectrum. The ever changing list of
> airline carriers for example. Or maybe DVD’s of just about
> any movie or TV show ever created.

Airlines know who travels the most and who does not. They know the demographics of the business traveller and the demographics, ages, geographic differences and even peak travel times of the leisure traveller. Leisure travelers put butts in seats, but do not make money. Business travellers make money... so the main marketing goes in areas like frequent flyer programs, special frequent flyer services, etc. They spend much more on the high volume traveller than on the casual one.

Beers are consumed by nearly everyone... yet nearly all the money goes to 21 to 39 year old male media and point of purchase and marketing. This is because this group consumes 20 or so beers for every one any other group buys.

Your movie example is particularly bad. the promotion for a release of Bridges of Madison County is not going to be the same as for the release of Season 7 of Barney. each one will be targeted at the consumer most likely to produce the larger share of the sales, and most other groups will be ignored as the cost of promotion (advertising, pop and marketing, etc) may be greater than the potential profits there.
>
> And even if all of the studies are correct and older people
> are in fact a hard sell, why not use advertising to
> reinforce their current buying habits? Encourage them to
> continue driving a Chevy and not lose the next sale to
> Toyota.

Since a lot of mainstream media is used by people of all ages, there is tremendous spillage. Chevy is not really interested in protecting the 60 year old buyer, as they do not WANT to have an image that makes them the Japanese Oldsmobile or Buick. they probably stay far away from "old" media so as not to get an image that will tarnish the brand.

> The baby boomers and generation Jones are a huge segment of
> the population. They have an enormous amount of spendable
> cash. Failure to even attempt to tap into that wealth is
> sheer stupidity.

Actually, the majority of retirees have little more than Social security, and a large additional segment has limited pensions to supplement. The median "weath" of a pre-retirment family in the US is under $100,000 and that is a very limited, constricted market. Keep in mind that one billionaire lifts the average of thousands of people, which is why I refer to median savings, not average.
>
> The mantra: over fifty five is not a desirable demo, Oldies
> radio is not a viable format. Orwell must be required
> reading during the interview in the advertising world.

Actually, it is over-55, and it is proven to be a difficult demo because the cost of selling is often higher than the profit on the sale.

And, again, it is not the advertising world but the fundamental marketing decisions made by manufacturers and service providers. Ad agencies and media simply do what the advertisers want, and that is usually to provide ad buys and media services that comply with the target demos.
 
little leaguer

Very insightful, Mike (NOT). At least you're consistent- consistently clueless. Please do us all a favor and stick to High School radio.


>
> It could be, but why don't you ask their consultant? Or are
> you just mad they didn't hire you?
> I figure ABC can afford the best. Maybe thats why you didn't
> get the gig.
>
> Oh and by the way David go back to our last thread and see my answer to you.
>
> Mike Dane
> WSTB-FM 88.9
> SundayOldiesJukebox.com
>
> King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
>
 
Re: little leaguer

> Very insightful, Mike (NOT). At least you're consistent-
> consistently clueless. Please do us all a favor and stick
> to High School radio.

Well Cat I have more of a clue than you ever will. And unlike
you I am at least in radio and on the air somewhere, even if
it is at a high school station. You're just a wanna be, and I
dont use that term lightly.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SundayOldiesJukebox.com

King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
 
Mistaken, period.

You know, we have had this argument over and over and over and over, and the facts do not change.

It does not matter one bit how much people on this board say "oldies should be viable because the target demo is desirable". Why? Because <u>you do not get to make that determination</u>.

The manufacturers tell the ad agencies what demo they want a product marketed to. The agencies find the stations that have the highest number of listeners in the demo the manufacturer specifies.

Nowhere in that equation are local sales managers, programmers, or know-it-all fans.

Here's an idea: Write the manufacturers' marketing departments and give them your arguments. But don't be surprised if the most you get in response is a polite form letter.

What I find sad is that half the posts on this board deal with this issue, and no one (other than David and myself, and a few others who aren't clueless) understands that reality is not commutable.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

Wow. I guess that ends the discussion. Time for the 76 million boomers to take their 17.5 trillion dollars in net worth and go home. To the only homes in the country by the way, that are apparently worth less than 100,000 dollars. (The median wealth of a pre-retirement family.)

Thanks for your responses and for not taking (too much) of a condescending attitude toward an obvious neophyte who is admittedly using mostly anecdotal evidence in his arguments.

Meanwhile, I remain,

Clueless in a New York suburb.

jc
 
on the radio

Put your money where your mouth is. I've been in radio AND on-air non-stop for 25+ years.

You should do your homework- or did you have to stay after for detention?

>
> Well Cat I have more of a clue than you ever will. And
> unlike you I am at least in radio and on the air somewhere, even if
> it is at a high school station. You're just a wanna be, and
> I dont use that term lightly.
>
> Mike Dane
> WSTB-FM 88.9
> SundayOldiesJukebox.com
>
> King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
>
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

The unfortunate part is many of our fellow posters are, a) not actually in radio and therefore not keen to the "ways of the radio world" and, b) those who are in the biz for ego reasons and, c) those in the biz but who've not been blessed to learn radio from the great mentors many of us had in our early days.

The radio industry is truly not the same- of course, we said that in the 70s, 80s and 90s, too.

>
> What I find sad is that half the posts on this board deal
> with this issue, and no one (other than David and myself,
> and a few others who aren't clueless) understands that
> reality is not commutable.
>
 
Re: on the radio

> Put your money where your mouth is. I've been in radio AND
> on-air non-stop for 25+ years.

Cat I put my money where my mouth is every Sunday night. I talk
the talk because I can walk the walk. Everyone that reads my
posts can tell who I am and where I am. I don't hide. My name,
station, website and sometimes my times are below my posts.
You on the other hand don't. Several times I've asked you to
prove who, what and where but you never do. All you do is come
in here and tell everyone that doesn't agree with you that
they are wrong and don't know what they're talking about.
Well I say baloney to that.

>
> You should do your homework- or did you have to stay after
> for detention?

Kind of hard to do homework when there is no material provided.
Oh in case you missed it go back to our last thread, I left a
message for you there that you might not have read.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SundayOldiesJukebox.com

King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> Wow. I guess that ends the discussion. Time for the 76
> million boomers to take their 17.5 trillion dollars in net
> worth and go home. To the only homes in the country by the
> way, that are apparently worth less than 100,000 dollars.
> (The median wealth of a pre-retirement family.)

Even if the over 55 and over 65 group had much more money than they really do, advertisers would shun them for the most part insofar as mainstream mass media is concerned.

The older a person gets, the more likely that trial and error has created a strong set of brand loyalties, making advertising to change these loyalties very expensive because it costs a lot to bet down habitual behaviour and to incite trial of a new product or service.

(By the way, all but a half-dozen of the Forbes 400, worth collectively about $2.5 trillion, are over 55. It only takes 394 people to change the net worth of the senior population by nearly 20%!!!!) Most senior worth is concentrated in about 10% of seniors, while the rest are below median household income families or persons.

>
> Thanks for your responses and for not taking (too much) of a
> condescending attitude toward an obvious neophyte who is
> admittedly using mostly anecdotal evidence in his arguments.
>

The fact is that, for whatever reasons, right or wrong, advertisers do not use radio to reach 55 and over. And radio has absolutely no control over this, as this sort of decision is reached at a level that radio stations can not reach.

Add to that the myth of boomers being loaded with disposable income and you have the real situation.
 
the radio

Yeah, Mike- you never do that, never come on and trash radio professionals.

Grow up.
>
> All you do is come in here and tell everyone that doesn't agree with you that
> they are wrong and don't know what they're talking about.
 
Leagues?

> Very insightful, Mike (NOT). At least you're consistent-
> consistently clueless. Please do us all a favor and stick
> to High School radio.

Cat--

I've tried to stay out of this whole deabte (except for supporting the adoption of the WLS-FM calls and the adoption of the late 60s-70s approach). But what struck me was the tone and attitude of David (stupid, clueless) and you (high school radio). It may not be intended, or even preferred, but the way these comments come across is as entrenched, establishment elitism--stuck in the Ivory Tower of big market commercial radio, frowning upon any station or programmer who isn't following the big city.

The oldies format had its peak 10-15 years ago. Even after the format tweak to center in the late 60s, oldies stations are less successful--ratings wise--than they were 10 years ago. There are less of them too. It happens, and I'm not going to argue or debate the merits of that.

But what you and David are, at least to me, implying is that a "good" oldies station cannot exist unless it's in a large market; and has adopted the new format; and bills large sums; and is in the 35-54 demo; and has a large budget (related to market size and billing and owner). There are successful stations that have adequately adapted: K-Earth, WMJI, 3WS, Big 100. But large-market success does not always equal "good".

There are many fringe stations (I'm thinking WJPA Washington, PA, south of Pittsburgh, and WLNG on Long Island) and many non-commercial stations (like WSTB) that are "good" stations and are offering a product that doesn't exist in large markets. They shouldn't be disparaged just because of their status and/or location.

The impression that you and David are presenting is elitism: these stations don't have the large numbers and success of our stations, so they must be inferior. You two are to be congratulated for your success and rewards, especially given your longevity in this industry. But I think that success and longevity has resulted in the air of invincibility and elitism comprising your aura instead of seasoned experience.

Not every station can be WMJI. And it's important for these new stations that are adopting the former oldies format (50s-70s) to be "good" and not merely placeholders. It is not the province of "radio" (as a whole) to forget segments of the population--including our seasoned listeners (55+). It is only because of an arbitrary age set by Madison Avenue and encouraged by weak-kneed local sales people that such formats do not exist in large markets. So be it--again, I'm not here to debate this.

But please, don't let your success in commercial radio blind you to what is happening on the fringe and in the left side of the band. These stations are good, in many cases great, and offer something that isn't provided elsewhere. They won't overtake Majic or 3WS. But they are "good" and well-programmed. They shouldn't be berated just because they aren't Class B competitors.

I just hope that you guys will see them as equals, and not as lesser stations just because of where they're located. The older format isn't trash--it's just not working now in the bustle of large markets. If Chicago's experiment fails, so be it. But they tried.

And these other stations are trying too. Just remember, the current oldies format may someday be on a fringe or non-comm too--and you may be hosting it there.
 
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