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New Chicago oldies station WZZN-FM

Re: Mistaken, period.

Yes, I have been convinced for a while that you are right. Fortunately broadcast radio is one option. Satellite, internet and personal CD's are other options. The other options are working out well. I think that most of the oldies will disappear from the internet in ten years. So I am recording often in anticipation of that sad day.

WLNG still thrives because they sell their time to local businesses and avoid the agency pitfalls.




> You know, we have had this argument over and over and over
> and over, and the facts do not change.
>
> It does not matter one bit how much people on this board say
> "oldies should be viable because the target demo is
> desirable". Why? Because you do not get to make that
> determination.
>
> The manufacturers tell the ad agencies what demo they want a
> product marketed to. The agencies find the stations that
> have the highest number of listeners in the demo the
> manufacturer specifies.
>
> Nowhere in that equation are local sales managers,
> programmers, or know-it-all fans.
>
> Here's an idea: Write the manufacturers' marketing
> departments and give them your arguments. But don't be
> surprised if the most you get in response is a polite form
> letter.
>
> What I find sad is that half the posts on this board deal
> with this issue, and no one (other than David and myself,
> and a few others who aren't clueless) understands that
> reality is not commutable.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
Re: little leaguer

Not to put down anyone here, but I listen to Mike and to Akron Sunday Jukebox every week and record some of it to play during the week. It is a fine radio station with warm personalities and a superb playlist that few stations on the net or on the air can beat.



> > Very insightful, Mike (NOT). At least you're consistent-
> > consistently clueless. Please do us all a favor and stick
>
> > to High School radio.
>
> Well Cat I have more of a clue than you ever will. And
> unlike
> you I am at least in radio and on the air somewhere, even if
>
> it is at a high school station. You're just a wanna be, and
> I
> dont use that term lightly.
>
> Mike Dane
> WSTB-FM 88.9
> SundayOldiesJukebox.com
>
> King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
OldiesCat is ........

> Yeah, Mike- you never do that, never come on and trash radio
> professionals.
>
> Grow up.
> >
> > All you do is come in here and tell everyone that doesn't
> agree with you that
> > they are wrong and don't know what they're talking about.
>
Oldies Cat, while Mike's tone is harsh, he DOES have a point, doesn't he?????????????
I looked at your profile and all it tells me is that you are a Pistons fan in Detroit. At least David Eduardo (Gleason) makes his website available for anyone to review. Most people here (including me) post under an alias -- For me, my experience is not important because I am a fan. You OTOH have a lot to say and your response would have more weight if we knew something about your background. Over two thousand posts in just over 9 months and we don't know who you are. It's not like you just got a nomination to the US Supreme Court and NO ONE knows what your record is and where you stand.
So.... What are you afraid of??????
Thanks for your response, I do enjoy reading them and this board.
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by SuperRadioFan on 10/04/05 06:38 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: Leagues?

Johnny, great reply. We've also found out through later posts that Cat's experience in radio takes him allllll the way back to 1980 or so. Wow, I'm impressed.


> Cat--
>
> I've tried to stay out of this whole deabte (except for
> supporting the adoption of the WLS-FM calls and the adoption
> of the late 60s-70s approach). But what struck me was the
> tone and attitude of David (stupid, clueless) and you (high
> school radio). It may not be intended, or even preferred,
> but the way these comments come across is as entrenched,
> establishment elitism--stuck in the Ivory Tower of big
> market commercial radio, frowning upon any station or
> programmer who isn't following the big city.
>
> The oldies format had its peak 10-15 years ago. Even after
> the format tweak to center in the late 60s, oldies stations
> are less successful--ratings wise--than they were 10 years
> ago. There are less of them too. It happens, and I'm not
> going to argue or debate the merits of that.
>
> But what you and David are, at least to me, implying is that
> a "good" oldies station cannot exist unless it's in a large
> market; and has adopted the new format; and bills large
> sums; and is in the 35-54 demo; and has a large budget
> (related to market size and billing and owner). There are
> successful stations that have adequately adapted: K-Earth,
> WMJI, 3WS, Big 100. But large-market success does not
> always equal "good".
>
> There are many fringe stations (I'm thinking WJPA
> Washington, PA, south of Pittsburgh, and WLNG on Long
> Island) and many non-commercial stations (like WSTB) that
> are "good" stations and are offering a product that doesn't
> exist in large markets. They shouldn't be disparaged just
> because of their status and/or location.
>
> The impression that you and David are presenting is elitism:
> these stations don't have the large numbers and success of
> our stations, so they must be inferior. You two are to be
> congratulated for your success and rewards, especially given
> your longevity in this industry. But I think that success
> and longevity has resulted in the air of invincibility and
> elitism comprising your aura instead of seasoned experience.
>
>
> Not every station can be WMJI. And it's important for these
> new stations that are adopting the former oldies format
> (50s-70s) to be "good" and not merely placeholders. It is
> not the province of "radio" (as a whole) to forget segments
> of the population--including our seasoned listeners (55+).
> It is only because of an arbitrary age set by Madison Avenue
> and encouraged by weak-kneed local sales people that such
> formats do not exist in large markets. So be it--again, I'm
> not here to debate this.
>
> But please, don't let your success in commercial radio blind
> you to what is happening on the fringe and in the left side
> of the band. These stations are good, in many cases great,
> and offer something that isn't provided elsewhere. They
> won't overtake Majic or 3WS. But they are "good" and
> well-programmed. They shouldn't be berated just because
> they aren't Class B competitors.
>
> I just hope that you guys will see them as equals, and not
> as lesser stations just because of where they're located.
> The older format isn't trash--it's just not working now in
> the bustle of large markets. If Chicago's experiment fails,
> so be it. But they tried.
>
> And these other stations are trying too. Just remember, the
> current oldies format may someday be on a fringe or non-comm
> too--and you may be hosting it there.
>
 
Re: Leagues?

> Johnny, great reply. We've also found out through later
> posts that Cat's experience in radio takes him allllll the
> way back to 1980 or so. Wow, I'm impressed.

Just to clarify here, because I'm unsure of the tone of your post tj, I am not questioning or otherwise commenting upon Cat (or David's) success or longevity. Entering the business in 1980 and still sticking around to now takes a good deal of talent (and a fair amount of luck--must not work for Clear Channel :)). Cat's done something that many others have failed, that is be successful for many many years in large to major markets, and continue to do so currently. David's success reaches even farther back, and is even more geographically varied. That's equally commendable and downright amazing, considering a big success of his came before he was able to vote or drink in this country.

But my point is that the same success may have inadvertently insulated them in the large market commercial success establishment. This may have clouded their vision in regards to non-horizontal competitors.
 
Re: Leagues?

>
> But what you and David are, at least to me, implying is that
> a "good" oldies station cannot exist unless it's in a large
> market;

That is exactly the opposite of what I have said. I bvelieve oldies is very tough to do in big markets today, where nearly all business is transactional. However, it is a viable format in suburban situations and smaller, unrated markets where advertisers tend to be local retail and service buisiness rather than ad agencies and large advertisers with multimedia budgets.

> and has adopted the new format; and bills large
> sums; and is in the 35-54 demo;

The only way to be successful with mass apppeal programming in a big market is to have some strength in 18-54. Too young or too old, and you are out of the buys.

> and has a large budget
> (related to market size and billing and owner).

You can not run a significant station in a large market without a significant budget unless you are a limited AM or small FM doing ultra-niche or brokered programming.

> There are
> successful stations that have adequately adapted: K-Earth,
> WMJI, 3WS, Big 100. But large-market success does not
> always equal "good".

KRTH has tried to adapt, but not with eminent success. Their billing is off 20% in the last 6 years while market revenues are up over 40%. In other words, they are not even pacing, they are dropping... hard. Similarly, big is off over 30% in billing against a market growth of about 20%. Not good, either. WMJI is pacing the market, and so is WWSW.

>
> There are many fringe stations (I'm thinking WJPA
> Washington, PA, south of Pittsburgh, and WLNG on Long
> Island) and many non-commercial stations (like WSTB) that
> are "good" stations and are offering a product that doesn't
> exist in large markets. They shouldn't be disparaged just
> because of their status and/or location.

Again, I said that oldies (WLNG is a full service station, right down to Swapo Shop) can and will work for some time in non-transactional markets, which means suburbs and smaller markets.
>
> The impression that you and David are presenting is elitism:
> these stations don't have the large numbers and success of
> our stations, so they must be inferior.

Success in radio is measured by revenue and BCF, not artistic values. For art, go to a museum. Radio is a business, and we are employed, all of us, because we contribute to making a go of the business. If we no longer do this, we are pretty useless.

> You two are to be
> congratulated for your success and rewards, especially given
> your longevity in this industry. But I think that success
> and longevity has resulted in the air of invincibility and
> elitism comprising your aura instead of seasoned experience.

I don´t believe that radio is invincible, and definitely don´t believe that most formats are permanent. Cat can answer on his own, but his discussion on the need for change in oldies indicates that he reads the listeners and knows when change is needed.
>
>
> Not every station can be WMJI.

Very true. This is a station that has used a morning drive base to create much more than a juke box. Not all markets are as stable as Cleveland, so this can not be done everywhere.

> And it's important for these
> new stations that are adopting the former oldies format
> (50s-70s) to be "good" and not merely placeholders. It is
> not the province of "radio" (as a whole) to forget segments
> of the population--including our seasoned listeners (55+).

I disagree. Commercial radio in rated markets can only serve listener segments which have advertiser demand. No matter how good a 55+ station is... nad KJUL comes to mind since it flipped yesterday... it can not bill in large market today in enough volume to be profitable and good at the same time.

> It is only because of an arbitrary age set by Madison Avenue
> and encouraged by weak-kneed local sales people that such
> formats do not exist in large markets.

Neither sellers nor ad agencies set targets. The advertiser does, and the decision is often part of extensive research, incorporated in product design and even packaging. Ad agencies carry out the client mandate, and radio stations offer a medium to reach the target.

> So be it--again, I'm
> not here to debate this.

You could have fooled me. :)

> But please, don't let your success in commercial radio blind
> you to what is happening on the fringe and in the left side
> of the band. These stations are good, in many cases great,
> and offer something that isn't provided elsewhere. They
> won't overtake Majic or 3WS. But they are "good" and
> well-programmed. They shouldn't be berated just because
> they aren't Class B competitors.

No one is belittling the non-coms. Many do a magnificent job, while others don´t... just like commercial stations. However, thier motivations are based on listener donations and, in some cases, grants. If they had to sell advertising, many would be in a different mode. It´s good they do not have to do this.
>
> I just hope that you guys will see them as equals, and not
> as lesser stations just because of where they're located.

They are not equals. They are different, as their goals are different.

> The older format isn't trash--it's just not working now in
> the bustle of large markets. If Chicago's experiment fails,
> so be it. But they tried.

Nobody said that the format is trash. I believe that, int he long run, it is not viable. And the lost revenue due to the flip will be hard to make up before the format matures itself out of existence.
>
> And these other stations are trying too. Just remember, the
> current oldies format may someday be on a fringe or non-comm
> too--and you may be hosting it there.

If that works as a way to get donations, all the more power to such stations as care to try it. Generally, music driven non-coms have a difficult time, while talk and information based ones tend to be good achievers.

As to hosting, a good PD told me to focus on something other than my air work. That was when I was about 15, and I went into programming as an intern / apprentice at a big group. I won´t be spinning ¨The Book of Love¨ any time soon.
>
 
Re: little leaguer

> > Very insightful, Mike (NOT). At least you're consistent-
> > consistently clueless. Please do us all a favor and stick
>
> > to High School radio.
>
> Well Cat I have more of a clue than you ever will. And
> unlike
> you I am at least in radio and on the air somewhere, even if
>
> it is at a high school station. You're just a wanna be, and
> I
> dont use that term lightly.

You know nothing about OldiesCat. OC is far more successful and really knows his facts. I may not always agree with him, but to say he is a wanna be not on the air, is way out of line. I'm not questioning your success in radio (you're in it at least, I'm not, yet) but I am defending Cat. Don't say things without knowing if they're true.

>
> Mike Dane
> WSTB-FM 88.9
> SundayOldiesJukebox.com
>
> King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
The Place for the Latest Happenings in Radio
www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
This site has been updated! Check it out! Thanks
</P>
 
Re: little leaguer

> > you I am at least in radio and on the air somewhere, even
> if
> >
> > it is at a high school station. You're just a wanna be,
> and
> > I
> > dont use that term lightly.
>
> You know nothing about OldiesCat. OC is far more successful
> and really knows his facts. I may not always agree with him,
> but to say he is a wanna be not on the air, is way out of
> line. I'm not questioning your success in radio (you're in
> it at least, I'm not, yet) but I am defending Cat. Don't say
> things without knowing if they're true.

You're right I know nothing about Cat. But that is his own
fault not mine. I have asked on several occasions for info
and proof and I never get it. If he doesn't want anyone to
know who he is he could e-mail me. But he hasn't.

How can you know if he is successful or not if he won't give
us any information?

As for calling him a wanna be and that being out of line,
I say baloney. I dont use the term "wanna be" lightly. For
example I would not use the term with you since you plan
to go into radio (you're a gonna be and I say go for it).
But being out of line? yeah right. I call it as I see it.

Why don't you tell Cat to show me some proof. I'd be more
than happy to say right here on the board that Cat has
shown me some proof and I was wrong.


Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SundayOldiesJukebox.com

King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
 
Re: little leaguer

> Not to put down anyone here, but I listen to Mike and to
> Akron Sunday Jukebox every week and record some of it to
> play during the week. It is a fine radio station with warm
> personalities and a superb playlist that few stations on the
> net or on the air can beat.

Thanks for the kind words Pepper. It's for all the listeners
out there like you that we do this, as well as our own love of
this music.
We take time to ferret out great songs that have been forgotten
and play them and who knows the boss might put them in regular
play. Doris Day - I'll never stop loving you is an example from
last sunday.
If we bring back a wonderful memory we are doing our job. If I
can make everyone smile with a corny joke and say "wow I haven't
heard that in a long time", I'm doing my job.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SundayOldiesJukebox.com

King of the Non-Comms in Ohio.
 
Re: the radio

> Yeah, Mike- you never do that, never come on and trash radio
> professionals.

Well the only two people I have disagreements with are you
and David. And you're not a radio professional so you must
mean David.
I may disagree with David but he's up front with who he is
and what he's done. I have a few questions I'd like to get
answers to but thats ok. I don't think David has a good
grasp of the music side, but that is only my opinion. If I
wanted someone for the day to day office operations or a
recommendation to someone for that job, David would be on
my short list. Disagree with him or not. Like him or not,
he has gotten my respect.

>
> Grow up.

I will if you will. quit hiding and show me some proof.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SundayOldiesJukebox.com

King of the Ohio Non-Comms.
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> WLNG still thrives because they sell their time to local
> businesses and avoid the agency pitfalls.

And on that, David and I both agree with you. David said so elsewhere in this thread, and I am saying so now.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> Meanwhile, I remain,
>
> Clueless in a New York suburb.

At least you ended with something we can agree on.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> > Meanwhile, I remain,
> >
> > Clueless in a New York suburb.
>
> At least you ended with something we can agree on.
>
And this from a moderator? Hmmm. I wonder who is really clueless.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SudayOldiesJukebox.com
 
this board

well, I'm sure not afraid of a high school radio dweeb. Many (most) of us on this board prefer some degree of privacy for a number of reasons, including people like Mike who would no doubt find a way to hassle us OUTSIDE this board. If somebody prefers to communicate with me directly (and many do), simply Email me at the address that's in my profile.

There are many anonymous contributions (outside of monetary) I give to my church, for instance, but I prefer not to have attention put on me personally but let the gift stand by itself. Nobody at my church (which is much more important than a radio board) would dream of characterizing me as "afraid". It's the gift that's important, not the giver.

Anybody accusing me of "hiding" is also pointing the finger at fully 80% of regular participants on this board. Our contributions and perspectives are what we pass on, not the weight of our positions in the broadcasting industry.


> Thanks for your response, I do enjoy reading them and this board.
 
Leagues?

Mike Dane is on a high school radio station and whether he's 17 or 43, his demeanor is childish and unprofessional.

I'm not saying good oldies stations can't exist outside of major markets- what I am saying that in the real world of today's radio industry, it's gotten to the point where the most influential leaders in the industry are in larger markets.
I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is. I isn't me that's designated 25-54 as the "money demo"-- but that's the way it is. My statements are not personal opinions about their quality- it is about the way they influence the business as a whole and the big-picture Oldies format is not and has never looked at a station like WLNG (despite their success) as an industry format leader- that's not my opinion but the way it is today.

Not saying I agree with all of this, but guys like David and I deal in FACTS-
and this is the way it is in radio in 2005 whether we like it or agree with it.
Guys like Mike Dane deal in an idealistic world- sticking his tongue out and taunting people who've dedicated their entire professional lives to the radio industry. The radio industry is facing some our biggest challenges ever and guys like Mike treat it like a playground. A pox on him.

> I've tried to stay out of this whole deabte (except for
> supporting the adoption of the WLS-FM calls and the adoption
> of the late 60s-70s approach). But what struck me was the
> tone and attitude of David (stupid, clueless) and you (high
> school radio). It may not be intended, or even preferred,
> but the way these comments come across is as entrenched,
> establishment elitism--stuck in the Ivory Tower of big
> market commercial radio, frowning upon any station or
> programmer who isn't following the big city.
>
> The oldies format had its peak 10-15 years ago. Even after
> the format tweak to center in the late 60s, oldies stations
> are less successful--ratings wise--than they were 10 years
> ago. There are less of them too. It happens, and I'm not
> going to argue or debate the merits of that.
>
> But what you and David are, at least to me, implying is that
> a "good" oldies station cannot exist unless it's in a large
> market; and has adopted the new format; and bills large
> sums; and is in the 35-54 demo; and has a large budget
> (related to market size and billing and owner). There are
> successful stations that have adequately adapted: K-Earth,
> WMJI, 3WS, Big 100. But large-market success does not
> always equal "good".
>
> There are many fringe stations (I'm thinking WJPA
> Washington, PA, south of Pittsburgh, and WLNG on Long
> Island) and many non-commercial stations (like WSTB) that
> are "good" stations and are offering a product that doesn't
> exist in large markets. They shouldn't be disparaged just
> because of their status and/or location.
>
> The impression that you and David are presenting is elitism:
> these stations don't have the large numbers and success of
> our stations, so they must be inferior. You two are to be
> congratulated for your success and rewards, especially given
> your longevity in this industry. But I think that success
> and longevity has resulted in the air of invincibility and
> elitism comprising your aura instead of seasoned experience.
>
>
> Not every station can be WMJI. And it's important for these
> new stations that are adopting the former oldies format
> (50s-70s) to be "good" and not merely placeholders. It is
> not the province of "radio" (as a whole) to forget segments
> of the population--including our seasoned listeners (55+).
> It is only because of an arbitrary age set by Madison Avenue
> and encouraged by weak-kneed local sales people that such
> formats do not exist in large markets. So be it--again, I'm
> not here to debate this.
>
> But please, don't let your success in commercial radio blind
> you to what is happening on the fringe and in the left side
> of the band. These stations are good, in many cases great,
> and offer something that isn't provided elsewhere. They
> won't overtake Majic or 3WS. But they are "good" and
> well-programmed. They shouldn't be berated just because
> they aren't Class B competitors.
>
> I just hope that you guys will see them as equals, and not
> as lesser stations just because of where they're located.
> The older format isn't trash--it's just not working now in
> the bustle of large markets. If Chicago's experiment fails,
> so be it. But they tried.
>
> And these other stations are trying too. Just remember, the
> current oldies format may someday be on a fringe or non-comm
> too--and you may be hosting it there.
>
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> > > Meanwhile, I remain,
> > >
> > > Clueless in a New York suburb.
> >
> > At least you ended with something we can agree on.
> >
> And this from a moderator? Hmmm. I wonder who is really
> clueless.

I thought that had already been decided.
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

> > > > Meanwhile, I remain,
> > > >
> > > > Clueless in a New York suburb.
> > >
> > > At least you ended with something we can agree on.
> > >
> > And this from a moderator? Hmmm. I wonder who is really
> > clueless.
>
> I thought that had already been decided.
>
Nope, still open for discussion.

Mike Dane
WSTB-FM 88.9
SundayOldiesJukebox.com

King of the Non-Comms in Ohio
 
Re: Mistaken, period.

.
> >
> Nope, still open for discussion.
>

What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom of choice, would live in the Cleveland area...
 
Cleveland Rocks!

> .
> > >
> > Nope, still open for discussion.
> >
>
> What I _really_ want to know is why anyone, having freedom
> of choice, would live in the Cleveland area...
>

Whoa...

David, that's going a bit far. You can argue with Mike about oldies playlists, and radio business, &c.

But when you start dissing Cleveland, you gotta deal with not only Mike, but Me, Old Akronite, Nate81, and a number of other posters at the Cleveland board.

That was way over the line. Let's not make this a pissing match about whose city and environs are better, or about who's a "fool" (which is what this thread was turning into).

So, in a nutshell--Step off Jack. Cleveland Rocks.

Just because YOU left 40 years ago...
 
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