SoulCrusher said:Agreed. Fall Out Boy like to think of themselves as "extreem punk rawk" and their teenybopping fans seem to agree. Truth be told, they have a lot more in common with Good Charlotte and Simple Plan than The Exploited and Sex Pistols. Fall Out Boy and their ilk can be summed up like this: boy bands in Hot Topic clothing. I would like them if the majority of my free time was spent with either MTV or MySpace, but that's not the case.
Beejus said:What? No stab at GRock in a post? That's a first.
Beejus said:I say keep this thread in the Alternative forums. Just because an artist crossed over onto the Pop Charts doesn't mean they have to be totally blacklisted from the world of Alternative music. Alternative radio programmers program to what their listeners want to hear, and right now, their listeners want to hear the new song from Fall Out Boy.
I personally like the song...it's different from their last album's sound... has a great beat too. I've had listeners of all ages respond favorably to this song on my station.
SoulCrusher said:FOB is another one of those bands whose classification I don't understand. So they were on a pseudo-indie whose main genre can be described as "Disney-punk" (Fueled By Ramen). Is that all an act needs nowadays to receive Alternative classification?
Beejus said:SoulCrusher said:FOB is another one of those bands whose classification I don't understand. So they were on a pseudo-indie whose main genre can be described as "Disney-punk" (Fueled By Ramen). Is that all an act needs nowadays to receive Alternative classification?
No. It needs requests by listeners of Alternative stations, and good numbers in audience research, which apparently it's getting, seeing how it has broken into the Top 20 at Alt.
Even the mighty Sirius has taken a liking to it, as AltNation has spun it 57 times this week. XM too, as it saw a +20 spin bump on Ethel.
And this next comment, I'm not trying to call you out or start a flamewar, I'm truly curious. You don't like Emo, which is proving to be an Alt Powerhouse... you don't like much of the active leaning rock either. What would your perfect Alt Top 10 list look like this week?
SoulCrusher said:Beejus said:SoulCrusher said:FOB is another one of those bands whose classification I don't understand. So they were on a pseudo-indie whose main genre can be described as "Disney-punk" (Fueled By Ramen). Is that all an act needs nowadays to receive Alternative classification?
No. It needs requests by listeners of Alternative stations, and good numbers in audience research, which apparently it's getting, seeing how it has broken into the Top 20 at Alt.
Even the mighty Sirius has taken a liking to it, as AltNation has spun it 57 times this week. XM too, as it saw a +20 spin bump on Ethel.
And this next comment, I'm not trying to call you out or start a flamewar, I'm truly curious. You don't like Emo, which is proving to be an Alt Powerhouse... you don't like much of the active leaning rock either. What would your perfect Alt Top 10 list look like this week?
I had a comment prepared, but my hand slipped and the message deleted. That irks me to no end. Anyway, rather than trying to recreate it, I'll just start fresh.
Bands such as Stone Sour, Shinedown, etc. are neither here nor there for me. They're alright, but a little bland and they don't belong on Alternative. Ditto for Hinder, Buckcherry, Nickelback and 3 Doors Down, all of whom annoy me. Basically, all of these acts have more of an '80s mainstream rock sound to them, nothing "Alternative" about them at all. But apparently the term means something completely different today than it did before Nirvana broke. These days, if you are a current band that plays rock music of any kind, you are Alternative. It doesn't matter whether you imitate a bunch of bands from the '70s (Jet), Lynyrd Skynyrd (Shinedown), Aerosmith (Buckcherry), or any number of lunkheaded corporate rockers (Hinder, 3 Doors Down and Nickelback). If these bands were around in 1989, they would have fit seamlessly on the AOR stations and sounded very out of place on Alternative. By playing any of these acts, you take liberty with the roots of the format, which some stations still hold sacred (Indie 103.1 in Santa Monica and The End in Seattle are good examples) - many other stations are Active/Alternative hybrids, throwing heavier acts into the mix. G Rock Radio (WHTG/WBBO, Monmouth/Ocean, NJ) is unique in that they are willing to play the modern AOR acts, but won't go anywhere near bands like System Of A Down. Looking at the two side by side, playing acts like SOAD and Korn would be less of a betrayal of the format's roots. SOAD has a very unique and quirky sound that's unmistakable, and Korn takes influence from bands like Faith No More and Suicidal Tendencies, acts more likely to receive airtime on Alternative than AOR. Not that I'm saying Alternative should or should not play these bands, but I do feel they belong more on Alternative than modern corporate rock acts like Stone Sour and Shinedown.
Now, going on to emo. I never thought of Fall Out Boy as an emo act, aside from the lengthy song titles so often associated with the genre - ditto for FOB associates Panic! At The Disco. These acts sound nothing like Rites Of Spring, Embrace or other DC acts where the roots of emo can be traced. Nor do they sound like modern emo bands like Taking Back Sunday or The Used, or screamo acts like Silverstein or Finch. Honestly, when I hear FOB and PATD, I am reminded of Rick Springfield jamming with Good Charlotte if you can imagine that - they sound like overproduced '80s pop mixed with '00s pseudo-punk pop/rock. And since Alternative abandoned GC and never really got behind anything by the like-minded Simple Plan, I don't see why these acts belong on the format.
In the end, it's not a matter of personal taste, but whether an artist fits on a format based on the way they sound. I was a fan of the Alternative format ever since I discovered 120 Minutes as a wee lad, and apparently a lot has changed then. While there are some exceptions, Alternative is no longer the format that goes against the grain - instead, it has become the grain. This is why acts that would have fallen in either AOR or Top 40 categories back in 1989 are classified as Alternative in 2006 (Run ... it's the invasion of the frat boys and their bratty little sisters!). Maybe a format will lean mainstream due to the tastes of the influx of listeners that jumped on board after Nirvana's breakthrough, or maybe this is terrestrial radio's way of coping with competition. Whatever the case, Alternative has become a catch-all mass appeal format, to the point where only a fraction of songs that the stations play are exclusive to them. And I can't help but notice that ratings at many of these station have fallen since this approach has been taken a few years ago. The influence of frat boys and teenyboppers is chasing the format faithful away.
p_herring said:Bands like Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance and Panic! At The Disco will continue to appear on alternative radio because of the way their audience responds to them, the style of music they play, and (well, with the exception of Panic!) both bands did come up from the underground scene and were supported by a large fanbase that was probably listening to alternative radio as well. While I like the idea of Indie 103, the fact is, it's not going to work in most areas of the country. There just isn't enough of a population that only likes The Shins, TV On The Radio, Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, etc. to appeal to advertisers.
I would rather hear Fall Out Boy on alt radio than some of the other hacks you mentioned (Hinder, Buckcherry, etc.) One of the cool things I think about the format is the way it is able to be more eclectic than Active Rock. You have your neo-new wave bands like The Killers sitting next to punk/emo hybrids like My Chemical Romance next to grungers such as Three Days Grace and Breaking Benjamin (both better and more acceptable to play on alternative than Hinder) as well as left-field acts like Gnarls Barkley. 2006 was a great year for alternative acts (Red Hot Chili Peppers, Panic! At The Disco, My Chemical Romance, AFI, Taking Back Sunday to name a few). I see why you're a bit upset but alternative can't get by on playing the "too cool for the room" music. The Nirvana/Pearl Jam/Soundgarden era 10 years ago was a million more times exciting than when a bunch of dudes looking like they just got out of bed to play a show and standing still (yes, I'm looking in The Strokes' direction). Alternative has long been abandoned by the record store clerk type, why not aim for what the kids are actually LISTENING to these days and pay attention to what bands are being downloaded talked about. Fall Out Boy should've been on alt. radio 3 years ago, not just starting last year.
p_herring said:Bands like Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance and Panic! At The Disco will continue to appear on alternative radio because of the way their audience responds to them, the style of music they play, and (well, with the exception of Panic!) both bands did come up from the underground scene and were supported by a large fanbase that was probably listening to alternative radio as well. While I like the idea of Indie 103, the fact is, it's not going to work in most areas of the country. There just isn't enough of a population that only likes The Shins, TV On The Radio, Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, etc. to appeal to advertisers.
I would rather hear Fall Out Boy on alt radio than some of the other hacks you mentioned (Hinder, Buckcherry, etc.) One of the cool things I think about the format is the way it is able to be more eclectic than Active Rock. You have your neo-new wave bands like The Killers sitting next to punk/emo hybrids like My Chemical Romance next to grungers such as Three Days Grace and Breaking Benjamin (both better and more acceptable to play on alternative than Hinder) as well as left-field acts like Gnarls Barkley. 2006 was a great year for alternative acts (Red Hot Chili Peppers, Panic! At The Disco, My Chemical Romance, AFI, Taking Back Sunday to name a few). I see why you're a bit upset but alternative can't get by on playing the "too cool for the room" music. The Nirvana/Pearl Jam/Soundgarden era 10 years ago was a million more times exciting than when a bunch of dudes looking like they just got out of bed to play a show and standing still (yes, I'm looking in The Strokes' direction). Alternative has long been abandoned by the record store clerk type, why not aim for what the kids are actually LISTENING to these days and pay attention to what bands are being downloaded talked about. Fall Out Boy should've been on alt. radio 3 years ago, not just starting last year.
SoulCrusher said:but I think all of these bands will be finished once their audience (90-95% of which consists of teenage females) graduates high school. I would hope by then that their tastes become a little bit more refined; if not, it is definitely a sad commentary on society as a whole.
Beejus said:Are you kidding me? You're saying that society is sad and pathetic for liking Fall Out Boy?
Again, I will start by saying NOT ONLY TEENAGE GIRLS LIKE FALL OUT BOY AND EMO. I doubt this point got through to you this time.
I really don't know how to respond to this anymore, because you just don't listen. You have your viewpoint, and the rest of the world has the opposite. But you're just going to have to accept the fact that Fall Out Boy had the biggest increase and chart jump at Alternative this week.
p_herring said:I think you're missing the point on Fall Out Boy. Both GC and SP basically had success thrown in their face from day one (Although, both their records took about a year to pick up). Fall Out Boy toured hard and gained a respetcable following of kids who did listen to punk/emo or whatever you want to call it, radio then came around. That's why I think they belong on alternative, because their audience is made up of alternative listerners.
SoulCrusher said:I miss the '80s, and the first half of the '90s as well. This was back when the Alternative format was generally exclusive, and there was very little crossover to the Top 40 formats. Nowadays, you hear so much crossover pop that you sometimes have to check your dial to see if you accidentally landed on "the station with all the hits!". I wonder where the next Smiths are, or the next Smashing Pumpkins, maybe the next Rage Against The Machine ... the next artistic band that's going to have some staying power. But lately it seems like most bands receiving the big push are cheesy pop groups with guitars (sadly, that's all it takes to get classified as Alternative these days) with a few exceptions here and there. These groups don't have fanbases that exclusively consist of young females who also think Nick Lachey and Jesse McCartney are "like, so totally hot", but they account for a good 90% of it. I did notice that a certain magazine gave a brief review of the latest Fall Out Boy single, and said with regards to their following "the little girls understand", which reiterates my point about them. Basically, there are some great acts out there that are being ignored while Alternative chooses to go with the quick fix - too much of this and the format could wind up killing itself. Do you really want to alienate the audience who initially helped the format attain its peak level of popularity? That's why Alternative should be careful about how much disposable pop fluff it plays, and should try to spend more time looking for relevant acts to support instead.
Someone compared Fall Out Boy to Green Day. I can see that: both came from "indie" beginnings, both quickly became MTV darlings upon the release of their official major label debuts, and both are shameless pop acts with audiences that are predominantly female (just going by what I see). U2? Maybe new corporate "radio, please play our songs / people, please buy our albums" U2, but not the innovative, bold U2 of years past.
I've drawn parallels between Fall Out Boy and bubblegum pop acts. If they have a longer shelf life than those acts, perhaps a comparison to Journey or Foreigner (only less musically proficient) would be more apt. All it takes are half a dozen songs to drive the point home: This is a band that wears what it truly desires on its sleeves - money, cars, girls, money, cars, girls ... did I mention money, cars & girls?
Beejus said:Are you kidding me? You're saying that society is sad and pathetic for liking Fall Out Boy?
Again, I will start by saying NOT ONLY TEENAGE GIRLS LIKE FALL OUT BOY AND EMO. I doubt this point got through to you this time.
I really don't know how to respond to this anymore, because you just don't listen. You have your viewpoint, and the rest of the world has the opposite. But you're just going to have to accept the fact that Fall Out Boy had the biggest increase and chart jump at Alternative this week.
Some acts that are classified as emo are acceptable for non-females to listen to. Among them: My Chemical Romance, The Used, Taking Back Sunday, Thursday, etc (and for the record, I quite like Thursday and don't mind the other bands). Fall Out Boy does not belong in that category, as their sound and image is different - they're a teen idol band. They have a sound that is extremely poppy, very simple and direct lyrics, they beg for the little girls to vote for them on TRL, and someone from the band is supposedly getting busy with Ashlee Simpson. These are all irrefutable facts, and the reasons why most males either don't listen to FOB, or are ashamed to admit that they do. I haven't even mentioned the fact that their fans seem to always talk about how "hot" the band members are. That shows you right there that FOB fans tend to be young and immature.
I did say that we're in trouble as a society for many of us liking FOB, given their overall primitive sound. But now that I thought about it, the blame shouldn't be placed on FOB; if anything shows us how much we've regressed, it's the popularity of "My Humps", "London Bridge", "Laffy Taffy", etc., among other things.
p_herring said:I think you're missing the point on Fall Out Boy. Both GC and SP basically had success thrown in their face from day one (Although, both their records took about a year to pick up). Fall Out Boy toured hard and gained a respetcable following of kids who did listen to punk/emo or whatever you want to call it, radio then came around. That's why I think they belong on alternative, because their audience is made up of alternative listerners.
They did build their fanbase a different way and weren't on the radio initially, but musically FOB isn't far off at all from GC and SP. They just started off on a pseudo-indie, Fueled By Ramen, a one-dimensional label that specializes in the brand of Radio Disney-approved kiddie-pop/pseudo-punk that FOB dabbles in and has for years. And it seems to be this very affiliation with said pseudo-indie that makes them acceptable. For the record, it's a known fact that Fall Out Boy fans also listen to Kelly Clarkson, Black Eyed Peas, etc. - see the "customers also bought" section of a certain popular online retailer. And I have heard some of their older stuff - basically, it was pop music for closet MTV fanatics who wanted to appear cool by claiming they liked an "underground" band.
I guess I respect their work ethics, but I don't respect the fact that they are a bunch of glorified commercial jingle writers. They may write very catchy songs, but they lack any kind of wit, creativity or substance. Of course, that means that it's just what the little MySpace-obsessed teenyboppers love to hear.
p_herring said:1) You say you miss the late 80's, early 90's.
2) You, yet again, have completely misinterpreted the fanbase of acts like Fall Out Boy.
3) I would love to know where you found this "known fact" that most FOB fans listen to Kelly Clarkson.
4) As for FBR being the "Disney punk" label, you might want to look a little deeper into their roster.
5) It sounds like you don't even listen to the band.
6) You claim that we're in trouble as a society because people are listening to acts like Fall Out Boy.
7) It's interesting you say the bands receiving the "big push" are cheesy pop bands.
8) It seems almost every act discussed on here gets dismissed by you as being "not alternative enough."
TOOL - "Uh, guys, the Active Rockers play this too, this no belong on alternative."
THE KILLERS - "Hmmm, top 40 seems to have taken a liking to them too, better get them off our playlists."
RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS - "Active Rock plays them, they sell out arenas, do I need to spell it out for you?"
AFI - "They wear make-up and young girls like them. Must be a gimmick! Alternative stations shouldn't play them."
With this type of attitude, all the alternative stations would be gone because the only people listening to them would be the same 12 virgin indie record-store clerks. And you wonder why Lollapalooza doesn't sell tickets anymore....