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No More Real Talk 1160
- Thread starter DJJack1
- Start date
I also believe a business radio network would make money and be self sufficient.
WestsideBulldog said:I also believe a business radio network would make money and be self sufficient.
I had a friend that was running a Business Talk Network, years ago. I did some free lance work for them (auto shows, presidential debate reporting). Its narrowcasting or niche broadcasting at its finest. Not sure that there would be enough support for it. It works in really big markets because there is a large enough population to draw from.
D
del_griffith
Guest
jry said:I agree with the "Great Post" sentiments.
Very thoughtful. I think that AM is still viable, though. There are a lot of markets where AM does well. We'll see...
First, I agree. It was a well expressed reply about radiom Medmen.
Jry. Where are these stations? I mean beyond the flame throwers. The WLW's, the WJR's, the WTAM's, the WGN's? The only example of a signal impared station that I know of that has done well is in Columbus. WTVN can get a decent rating during football, but post OSU football, it's dropped to a 5.5 share. About where it was pre-football. Because of it's night directional and the growth of the area, there are a growing number of populated areas that cannot get it, is in a null noise area or has horrible ingress. I live in a condo project and my street is in the null noise area. The entire length of it. Daytime, they are fine with a solid almost state wide signal. But nights is really pulled in.
And since there are a few stations that could rank above it but don't subscribe to Arbitron, it's difficult to see if they are 5th in the market or 8th when they used to be #1 or 2. Consistently.
In other words, a once proud station is wounded. The balance of our AM stations are more impaired than TVN and none of them have done more than a fractional share for a long time. (WBNS-AM, when they subscribed would also get a football bump.)
We have a daytime Christian station that supposedly has a profit, but I think that has more to do with how the parent allocates Dobson et al show dollars than actual if it stood alone on it's own income. (Speculation on my part.)
I agree, unless you are a 50kw flame thrower, I see hard times for the weaker 1kw-5kw stations which is why many of them have a FM translator. The noise floor has incresed greatly over the 10 to 15 years. At some point even those 50kw signals are going to face the same reality as well.
MTHBSTR said:Medman...BEST POST EVER!
I'll second that.
I think having listeners to AM stations less than 50,000 watts is possible in this market, but there has to be something on to listen to. Too much anymore, those lower-watt stations are either airing a show that is available on many other stations or a talk show that sounds like all of the others.
For many years, Stan Matlock on WKRC in the morning or a Dusty Rhodes on WSAI at night got high ratings. So did Jerry Thomas on 'KRC in the morning/afternoon as did some of the rock DJ's on 'SAI. Each basically provided programs that were unique and they got the listeners.
Sports-wise, the Reds were on WKRC from 1957 thru 1963 and had the listeners. UC football & basketball were, likewise on 'KRC from 1962-63 thru 1970-71 and did well listening-wise. The early broadcast years of the Royals (1959-60 thru 1962-63) were also on lower-power outlets.
Maybe these examples are from too many years ago, but they show that listeners can be obtained on local stations of less than 50,000 watts. It all depends on the material that is being aired on them.
For many years, Stan Matlock on WKRC in the morning or a Dusty Rhodes on WSAI at night got high ratings. So did Jerry Thomas on 'KRC in the morning/afternoon as did some of the rock DJ's on 'SAI. Each basically provided programs that were unique and they got the listeners.
Sports-wise, the Reds were on WKRC from 1957 thru 1963 and had the listeners. UC football & basketball were, likewise on 'KRC from 1962-63 thru 1970-71 and did well listening-wise. The early broadcast years of the Royals (1959-60 thru 1962-63) were also on lower-power outlets.
Maybe these examples are from too many years ago, but they show that listeners can be obtained on local stations of less than 50,000 watts. It all depends on the material that is being aired on them.
D
del_griffith
Guest
Cincinnati Kid said:I think having listeners to AM stations less than 50,000 watts is possible in this market, but there has to be something on to listen to. Too much anymore, those lower-watt stations are either airing a show that is available on many other stations or a talk show that sounds like all of the others.
For many years, Stan Matlock on WKRC in the morning or a Dusty Rhodes on WSAI at night got high ratings. So did Jerry Thomas on 'KRC in the morning/afternoon as did some of the rock DJ's on 'SAI. Each basically provided programs that were unique and they got the listeners.
Sports-wise, the Reds were on WKRC from 1957 thru 1963 and had the listeners. UC football & basketball were, likewise on 'KRC from 1962-63 thru 1970-71 and did well listening-wise. The early broadcast years of the Royals (1959-60 thru 1962-63) were also on lower-power outlets.
Maybe these examples are from too many years ago, but they show that listeners can be obtained on local stations of less than 50,000 watts. It all depends on the material that is being aired on them.
I agree it worked.......a long time ago. In Columbus lite 250 watt WCOL commanded monster ratings with it's top forty sound. By the late 70's it was carrying around an oxygen bottle. Today it gets a .2 share. AM radio worked until FM migrated to the automobile radio dial. From there the migration of listeners began.
El grande 1160?
That'd be my guess for somebody this year.
callletters said:El grande 1160?
That'd be my guess for somebody this year.
97.7 WOXY is already serving the Hispanic audience with La Mega. Not sure if there is room for 1 more.
del_griffith said:jry said:I agree with the "Great Post" sentiments.
Very thoughtful. I think that AM is still viable, though. There are a lot of markets where AM does well. We'll see...
First, I agree. It was a well expressed reply about radiom Medmen.
Jry. Where are these stations? I mean beyond the flame throwers. The WLW's, the WJR's, the WTAM's, the WGN's? The only example of a signal impared station that I know of that has done well is in Columbus. WTVN can get a decent rating during football, but post OSU football, it's dropped to a 5.5 share. About where it was pre-football. Because of it's night directional and the growth of the area, there are a growing number of populated areas that cannot get it, is in a null noise area or has horrible ingress. I live in a condo project and my street is in the null noise area. The entire length of it. Daytime, they are fine with a solid almost state wide signal. But nights is really pulled in.
And since there are a few stations that could rank above it but don't subscribe to Arbitron, it's difficult to see if they are 5th in the market or 8th when they used to be #1 or 2. Consistently.
In other words, a once proud station is wounded. The balance of our AM stations are more impaired than TVN and none of them have done more than a fractional share for a long time. (WBNS-AM, when they subscribed would also get a football bump.)
We have a daytime Christian station that supposedly has a profit, but I think that has more to do with how the parent allocates Dobson et al show dollars than actual if it stood alone on it's own income. (Speculation on my part.)
I'll carve out some time and give you a list of stations. Keep in mind, one thing. Not every "flame thrower" is a good signal. WTOP is a case in point. We were tied into a 3 way interference settlement with them, KSTP and my old station in Detroit. Those two guys still have coverage problems in their respective markets and do VERY WELL as does my old 50KW in Detroit.
It probably bills around 200K a month and costs about 50K per month to run. No, they aren't a ratings success but, they haul in the cash.
microbob said:I agree, unless you are a 50kw flame thrower, I see hard times for the weaker 1kw-5kw stations which is why many of them have a FM translator. The noise floor has incresed greatly over the 10 to 15 years. At some point even those 50kw signals are going to face the same reality as well.
1 - 5 KW stations can do very well. You have to factor in dial position.
I'll take 1KW at 600 over 50KW at 1500, everyday.
M
medman
Guest
Another example of my lack of knowledge about this part of a market.
Having been involved in approving advertising for our companies in the past, how do you successfully promote a station to Ad Agencies that aren't rated by Arbitron? Our agencies have always advised us to stay away from those players and dismissed them as "noise".
Without those it seems you are chasing some very small clients who don't use agencies or look at the ratings. That's not always a bad thing, but any small billing clients in most businesses return a lower net profit because of the additional coverage/support for resources. Just a fact of total margin dollars per client.
Now I understand a little more of what the banker I mentioned earlier was describing. Without an significant asset appreciation to make it attractive It's a weak business model to succeed on - might be possible to break even, or even make a little in good times. Relies on very low overhead, tightly managed costs for resources and capital needs. Sure doesn't sound like an investment for return, more as a hobby. Not a bad thing if that's what you like to do!
Last note - business radio. Sounds like a good thing to a lot of us, at least on the surface. The devil is in the details though...can't imagine that there are enough people out there to listen to it frequently, especially with a local focus. NPR does quite well with a half hour national show (Marketplace Money - out of LA) on weekday evenings during drive time, actually quite detailed and interesting. Sounds kind of expensive to compete with though and wouldn't you run up against the local business media outlets already covering the market?
The other problem is that of all demographics, most business people now are pretty well connected, and I'd rather get to those resources via my iPad or laptop. I can access Business Courier, Financial Times, Forbes, CNNFn, Technology news outlets and such including eprint, audio/video media and livecasting.
If traditional broadcasting is the model, I suspect the only hope for small AM stations is to reach listeners who
1. Don't spend much time at a computer/pad/smart phone.
2. Less expectations in sound fidelity (older listeners, older material in mono)
3. Listen on a traditional desktop radio rather than though the stereo or other device.
4. Interested in a variety of info talk driven programs (garden, food, car, sports, etc.)
5. Differentiate from large broadcasters - but how to do it affordably?
Now having said this, item #4 pretty much reflected RealTalk 1160's format - and that apparently couldn't swing it, even after years of hard work.
As much as my heart says keep at it, you've got to look at facts. A very tough one to succeed with for sure!
Having been involved in approving advertising for our companies in the past, how do you successfully promote a station to Ad Agencies that aren't rated by Arbitron? Our agencies have always advised us to stay away from those players and dismissed them as "noise".
Without those it seems you are chasing some very small clients who don't use agencies or look at the ratings. That's not always a bad thing, but any small billing clients in most businesses return a lower net profit because of the additional coverage/support for resources. Just a fact of total margin dollars per client.
Now I understand a little more of what the banker I mentioned earlier was describing. Without an significant asset appreciation to make it attractive It's a weak business model to succeed on - might be possible to break even, or even make a little in good times. Relies on very low overhead, tightly managed costs for resources and capital needs. Sure doesn't sound like an investment for return, more as a hobby. Not a bad thing if that's what you like to do!
Last note - business radio. Sounds like a good thing to a lot of us, at least on the surface. The devil is in the details though...can't imagine that there are enough people out there to listen to it frequently, especially with a local focus. NPR does quite well with a half hour national show (Marketplace Money - out of LA) on weekday evenings during drive time, actually quite detailed and interesting. Sounds kind of expensive to compete with though and wouldn't you run up against the local business media outlets already covering the market?
The other problem is that of all demographics, most business people now are pretty well connected, and I'd rather get to those resources via my iPad or laptop. I can access Business Courier, Financial Times, Forbes, CNNFn, Technology news outlets and such including eprint, audio/video media and livecasting.
If traditional broadcasting is the model, I suspect the only hope for small AM stations is to reach listeners who
1. Don't spend much time at a computer/pad/smart phone.
2. Less expectations in sound fidelity (older listeners, older material in mono)
3. Listen on a traditional desktop radio rather than though the stereo or other device.
4. Interested in a variety of info talk driven programs (garden, food, car, sports, etc.)
5. Differentiate from large broadcasters - but how to do it affordably?
Now having said this, item #4 pretty much reflected RealTalk 1160's format - and that apparently couldn't swing it, even after years of hard work.
As much as my heart says keep at it, you've got to look at facts. A very tough one to succeed with for sure!
Something might be noted about how people have moved outward from Cincinnati and its immediate suburbs in the past 30 years or so. In doing so, signals of the lower-wattages AM stations are harder to receive where they are now - especially after dark. As such, they may settle for WLW because it is easily picked up or one of the many FM outlets whose signals come in well for the most part even if their power isn't tremendous.
D
del_griffith
Guest
jry said:microbob said:I agree, unless you are a 50kw flame thrower, I see hard times for the weaker 1kw-5kw stations which is why many of them have a FM translator. The noise floor has incresed greatly over the 10 to 15 years. At some point even those 50kw signals are going to face the same reality as well.
1 - 5 KW stations can do very well. You have to factor in dial position.
I'll take 1KW at 600 over 50KW at 1500, everyday.
I agree in coverage. But unless it is non directional or a DA that's not severe, it's handicapped (ie the WTVN in Columbus example where the burbs have began to outgrown the signal).
Most non 50kw flame throwers have a signal limitation. Usually a reduced power/night time DA issue. Those were the stations I was inquiring about. Yes there are probably a few exceptions. But in general, I can't think of many that do well.
HafDawg said:Isn't this where someone is supposed to scream CLASS-X, CLASS-X, CLASS-X???
haha
Hey, They have The Bull Dog now..
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