7.5KHz ANALOG audio on AM, with impulse noise reduction, and stereo, sounds fantastic and beats the pants off any AM-HD that I've heard yet. I'll have to post some WJR audio pre-HD to show how great it really was!
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- Thread starter KB1OKL
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JohnnyElectron said:
I'd love to hear those airchecks too.
It's sad AM radio was tossed in the bin- but that started when radio manufacturers got away from wideband. I have a 1976 Panasonic AM-FM table radio, model RE-6516- this thing is a typical 1970's discrete component design. AM sounds as good as the FM section, it has amazing sensitivity- and most recently it's been getting a workout- we have a really GOOD sounding R&B oldies station in Atlanta:
http://www.oldschool1010.com/
I posted a link on my FB page, and most of my friends were blown away that:
1)-more than talk existed on AM radio
2)-it is a format not found (sadly) on any of the FM's in town anymore, despite Atlanta being a big market and large older black population
3)-it has a GREAT playlist that spans the 60's through the 2000's.
What they all said is they ALL listen on the webstream- three of my friends TRIED listening OTA at their homes but either complained of not being able to pick it up and one said it sounded "horrible" on her modern Yamaha surround sound receiver. When I went to her house, I concurred, the Yamaha has that ugly 3.5KHz bandwidth on AM, optimized for talk radio. When she came by my place last night, she could not BELIEVE the same music coming from the same station on a 1976 model AM-FM radio sounded SO GOOD, even, in her opinion, better than their web stream.
So there you have it. No magic here, no HD needed. Radio has to offer CONTENT people want to hear and SOUND GOOD.
why did corporate America manage to screw up in 10 years what so simple? I don't buy the "Internet killed radio" argument. If you give people what they want, make it sound good- and sound IS the product, then they will seek it out. Whether that is HD Radio, the Internet, their cellphones, or their 35 year old vintage table radios.
Yes, MRFLASHPORT, there is no good reason to accept the awful-sounding presentation made of AM radio by manufacturers.
I'm cynical enough to believe that the degradation is intentional.
Just like the "acceptance" of vehicles with "Mac Pherson" struts instead of "proper" unequal-lemgth upper and lower control arms with a small tubular shock absorber on the front suspension.
The reason it used to be done that way, was that it worked best.
Then somebody decided that for reasons of cost, everyone "could be" satisfied with a vehicle that did not handle as well,
or maintain proper tire angle contact to the road.
Whoever it was that decided that AM should sound like mud, deserves to "accquire" profound deafness as a curse.
I'm cynical enough to believe that the degradation is intentional.
Just like the "acceptance" of vehicles with "Mac Pherson" struts instead of "proper" unequal-lemgth upper and lower control arms with a small tubular shock absorber on the front suspension.
The reason it used to be done that way, was that it worked best.
Then somebody decided that for reasons of cost, everyone "could be" satisfied with a vehicle that did not handle as well,
or maintain proper tire angle contact to the road.
Whoever it was that decided that AM should sound like mud, deserves to "accquire" profound deafness as a curse.
Hense why I got the Maduci tuner. Excelent frequency response on AM.
http://meduci.com/
There is no reason to make receivers that sound like utter crap on AM. Its not the stations, its the manufactures of the receivers. Sony SRF-A100, SRF-42, CSF-6000 all sound great on AM. and for a moddern tuner, Maduci has once again made AM sound good. you dont have to shell out $$$ for a Fanfare FTA-100 AM Stereo tuner.
http://meduci.com/
There is no reason to make receivers that sound like utter crap on AM. Its not the stations, its the manufactures of the receivers. Sony SRF-A100, SRF-42, CSF-6000 all sound great on AM. and for a moddern tuner, Maduci has once again made AM sound good. you dont have to shell out $$$ for a Fanfare FTA-100 AM Stereo tuner.
Well, first, you stop using the radio which sounds horrible.TheBigA said:
This instantly removes the impression that AM "just sounds that way".
Then, you find a replacement radio that has not been sabotaged by design.
Actually destroying the "bad" radio is a further step that would ensure no one else has to suffer.
Those with technical skill may be able to modify the radio to make AM sound much better.
If the radio is a part of something else like a car, a strongly worded letter to the mfr, accurately stating (blaming) the manufacturer for the bad design of the AM section would be the next step.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
MRFLASHPORT said:
You are confusing wideband (IF response) with low pass filtering in the audio section. Almost all home and portable radios manufactured in the past 30 years have wide IF response. Roll off is only done in the audio section.
Tom Wells said:
You're asking the general public to do something they know nothing about.
Savage said:You do it with marketing, BigA. You know: what we do for a living in broadcasting? :
Marketing by whom? Electronics manufacturers? Really? What have they done that was good for radio in the last ten years?
What WE do for a living is different than what electronics manufacturers do, and we have very different agendas.
The ONLY way profit making electronics manufacturers will do something that benefits radio is if they're REQUIRED to do it. Period. They won't do it because it's good for the medium. They won't do it because it improves sound. They won't do it because it's the right thing to do. That's NOT the reason they make and sell products.
And when, by accident, that they actually do make a really good product (like the Sony HD tuner) - they stop making it altogether rather than improve upon it (better cooling, decent AM section) etc....
All the really good HD tuners that were worth a rat's arse have been discontinued except for the Sangean HD1-X. You can't even order a BestBuy Insignia 'Narrator' radio
All the really good HD tuners that were worth a rat's arse have been discontinued except for the Sangean HD1-X. You can't even order a BestBuy Insignia 'Narrator' radio
(Sigh) No, BigA. Marketing - over the air. With promos. With an industry-standard logo and moniker, something like "New Hi-Fi AM. Sounds great...again." Or some other phrase to sell the concept. I strongly recommend the positioning be honest and easy to understand by civilians - tests resoundingly flunked by HD Radio, over and over. (This means we must NOT put the marketing in the ten thumbs of the NAB.)
Of course there would have to be receivers capable of capitalizing on the improved audio. I know there are problems with non-radio device noise generation, but we have to start somewhere. Anything's better than doing nothing, or trying to rely on deader-than-dead AM-HD.
Of course there would have to be receivers capable of capitalizing on the improved audio. I know there are problems with non-radio device noise generation, but we have to start somewhere. Anything's better than doing nothing, or trying to rely on deader-than-dead AM-HD.
Savage said:
Compare the success of marketing HD Radio with marketing iheartradio. Which one worked? Why? Not because the content was better. Not because the sound was better. But because the device was what the public wants, i.e. internet and mobile. Clear Channel somehow managed to get several of its competitors to join up, so it's more than just a CC tool. And it's the second biggest radio streamer after Pandora. It may be radio's only success story. Consumers don't want to buy table radios. They don't want to buy radio-only portables. They don't want to buy satellite radios either. They want to buy devices that do other things PLUS radio. We all learned that 25 years ago with the Walkman. The public made up their minds a long time ago. Getting them to buy new radios, regardless of the sound or technology, is like getting them to buy head cheese. The best marketing in the world can't get people to buy something they don't want.
I'm less interested in selling radios than I am in selling radio.
There are millions of AM radios out there. I don't think getting hardware in the hands of consumers is the problem. The problems are (a) getting AM to sound as good as it is capable of sounding, which is to say, generally a heluva lot better than it is sounding generally these days (*), (b) improving the on-air programming to mass-appeal formats with a prayer of success and (c) successfully marketing the improved product, audio quality + programming, to the general public.
Given that radio has a history of successfully accomplishing most of this for 80+ years, this shouldn't be a daunting task. According to the radio industry's own defeatist leadership, about half of the commercial licenses on the air today (those would be the AM stations) aren't generating any meaningful audience or revenue. This represents massive potential for near- and long-term growth were these properties to be developed. All we have to do is get all the "smart guys" to stop wringing their hands, and allow those truly interested in radio to provide the leadership - and watch what happens. (Or, more precisely, listen.)
(*) largely thanks to the QRN supplied, shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-style, by HD Radio and non-radio devices. Come to think about it, citing those two sources is redundant.....
There are millions of AM radios out there. I don't think getting hardware in the hands of consumers is the problem. The problems are (a) getting AM to sound as good as it is capable of sounding, which is to say, generally a heluva lot better than it is sounding generally these days (*), (b) improving the on-air programming to mass-appeal formats with a prayer of success and (c) successfully marketing the improved product, audio quality + programming, to the general public.
Given that radio has a history of successfully accomplishing most of this for 80+ years, this shouldn't be a daunting task. According to the radio industry's own defeatist leadership, about half of the commercial licenses on the air today (those would be the AM stations) aren't generating any meaningful audience or revenue. This represents massive potential for near- and long-term growth were these properties to be developed. All we have to do is get all the "smart guys" to stop wringing their hands, and allow those truly interested in radio to provide the leadership - and watch what happens. (Or, more precisely, listen.)
(*) largely thanks to the QRN supplied, shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-style, by HD Radio and non-radio devices. Come to think about it, citing those two sources is redundant.....
Savage said:
I hear all this talk about leadership, and it's always one group pointing their finger at someone else. Never anyone stepping up to the plate with a plan and carrying it out. No one seems to want to actually be the leader. Leadership means working with lots of people who don't agree and don't share in the same narrow agendas in order to accomplish something for everyone.
From reading this thread, it sounds like there IS a hardware problem. Apparently, a vast majority of the available devices don't deliver the full potential sound. So just having radio stations cleaning their signal path won't fix everything. Are you as an owner going to provide free ad time to manufacturers who make quality radios? Because from what I see, manufacturers aren't buying ad time to sell radios any more. Even internet radios!
I think the problem is that those of us who are successful, local, and independent -- basically broadcasters who know what we're doing -- have no interest in giving up our situations to enter the abyss that is the national radio industry. My ongoing hope is that the big groups and the NAB don't do so much damage that they affect my local success. HD Radio is definitely one of the many self-inflicted wounds, but THE WORST is consolidation. Using "national radio industry leadership" and "smart" in the same sentence does not compute!
The reason so many AM facilities are making money is because they're incapable of serving the market they target. A 1 kW fulltime AM can probably do alright in smalltown USA, so making money there isn't too difficult when all the pieces fall into place.
But how is that 1 kW AM going to even show up in the ratings if it's smack dab in the middle of a metropolitan area that's 50 miles long and 40 miles tall? It won't even cover half the population with anything close to a usable signal. Nevermind HD, the old fashioned analogue signal is nowhere near sufficient. Then there are the directional properties which shoot signal out into the middle of nowhere but null out high income, high grown subdivisions. They miss the monied neighbourhoods and are extra expense to maintain.
Frankly, some of these facilities would be better off dead. Tear 'em down, sell the land, hand in the license. The rest can fight for scraps targeting niche and minority audiences that happen to live in the tiny coverage area, or get an FM translator and hope for the best.
But how is that 1 kW AM going to even show up in the ratings if it's smack dab in the middle of a metropolitan area that's 50 miles long and 40 miles tall? It won't even cover half the population with anything close to a usable signal. Nevermind HD, the old fashioned analogue signal is nowhere near sufficient. Then there are the directional properties which shoot signal out into the middle of nowhere but null out high income, high grown subdivisions. They miss the monied neighbourhoods and are extra expense to maintain.
Frankly, some of these facilities would be better off dead. Tear 'em down, sell the land, hand in the license. The rest can fight for scraps targeting niche and minority audiences that happen to live in the tiny coverage area, or get an FM translator and hope for the best.
I agree programming formats that people want to tune into would help. However the crapppy qualety of receivers dont help anything. People just dont turn to AM like they used to. and what reason do they have to do so? Yes, Maduci makes this great tuner, but in the Philadelphia markit for instance there is no reason for me to use it. I dont like sports radio, and i'm not interested in talk radio. Plus WIP and WPHT aren't even broadcasting in anolog-only mode. WNTP isn't what i'd like to listen to either. 1310 is AM Stereo but spanish. However you go to The Villages FL, and there are music formats of stuff that I know. sure it isn't CHR but its at least something I like and know. In The Villages, I have reason to use my tuner. IT sounds good, and WVLG/WLBE provides programming I like. However, if one of those elaments wasn't in place (bad tuner, or programming that doesn't appeal to me), i would once again have no reason to tune in.
To bring this back to HD, I have an HD radio I got for Christmas. no reason to use it. I can't get HD signals on it relyably. I'm too far away from any transmitter that transmits HD. Guess what? The HD tuner is goin back to PA and the Maduci is staying in FL. I can hook up to an external antenna in PA for HD and although its missing the personality that make radio radio, at least i'd like the 80's channel, the NAC/SJ channel etc.
I might listen to KYW on the FM HD as well sometimes.
To bring this back to HD, I have an HD radio I got for Christmas. no reason to use it. I can't get HD signals on it relyably. I'm too far away from any transmitter that transmits HD. Guess what? The HD tuner is goin back to PA and the Maduci is staying in FL. I can hook up to an external antenna in PA for HD and although its missing the personality that make radio radio, at least i'd like the 80's channel, the NAC/SJ channel etc.
I might listen to KYW on the FM HD as well sometimes.
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