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possible cbs-fm flip

murphmac said:
You know something ------I don't care about the "testing" thing. I think it's a bunch of crap and always have. It's one of the reasons why stations playlists are sliced to crap!

So you do not believe in asking the listener what they want to hear, but do want to limit play of songs so the DJ on the air does not get tired of them...

The average jock with a 4 hour or 5 hour shift listens to the station's music more in a day than most listeners hear in a week.
 
Let's be honest here.Free radio is for the advertisers,not john q. public.If it were cbs wouldn't have flipped in the first place.
 
ceaser said:
Let's be honest here.Free radio is for the advertisers,not john q. public.If it were cbs wouldn't have flipped in the first place.

Any commercial station must have an advertiser base to be able to provide "free" programming for listeners. This has been radio's model for over 80 years, so it's nothing new.

The only thing that affects some listeners is that formats that appeal exclusively outside of the groups advertisers desire to reach can not be programmed because there is no way to pay the bills. That means that all-55+ formats are not going to be programmed in larger markets where ad buys are based on precise age targets...

It's always been that way.
 
I'm 30-something and VP/GM of a small-market radio station in Georgia, although I like to keep up with what's going on across the country. The vast majority of my career has been in small market radio. Although I worked in corporate radio for a couple of years to get a taste of what it was like. . .ultimately to see if my heart was in the big cities or small towns. Obviously by the career path I picked, one can see where my heart lies. My commute to work consists of driving down two-lane roads past cow fields, and wild roosters running loose in people's front yards. I wouldn't trade it for anything. ::)

Working in big market radio, I quickly grew to disdain advertising agencies. David Eduardo, unfortunately, is correct that the agencies drive the formats of big market stations. I've never agreed with the agency idea that once you turn 55, you might as well make a noose and finalize your last will and testament because you're useless in their eyes. But it is what it is. I think the baby-boomers are an extremely viable target demo for advertisers and are not "old" and set in their ways like the Depression-era generation that preceeds them. Last time I checked, now that the kids are out of the house, the baby-boomers have got more discretionary income to play with than ever before. Too bad 23-year-old Sally Timebuyer and her boss, 31-year-old Marcy Media Planner, do not realize that.

I've been keeping my eye on the CBS 101 flip since it happened in June 2005. I'm happy to see that CBS Radio is going to bring back the beloved WCBS-FM. I hope the resurrected WCBS-FM will succeed and bring back that New York LOCAL "Feel" that JACK destroyed. Unfortnately in an agency-driven market, if the majority of the listenership falls 55+, we'll be seeing another format change in a few years.

Bottom line, I think in order for CBS 101 to succeed, they will have to make sure they are pulling strong numbers in that 35-54 bracket to keep those agency clowns spending, or they better hope there are enough local-direct dollars out there to ensure its success.
 
When IS the Flip Predicted to Happen? I have heard several Say thursday. Where does that info come from? and if it's thursday What Time would it possibly be? The Popular 7:20 am(why do radio stations pick that time of all times for special announcements?) or do they go for 5pm? or do they go for 5am or some time way early in the am like they did with Fresh 102.7?
 
Oldies Cat said:
For the record, I'd be in favor of CBS flipping 101.1 back to what today's Oldies are (similar to KRTH and WRBQ) but not back to the "golden oldies" that includes much before 1967- if they do that, it's just a temporary move to gain positive P.R. and I believe Dan Mason is a lot sharper than that (and his predecessors LOL). I said all along that while I understood WHY they did it in the first place, they totally and 100% botched the move to Jack on every possible front. It's been an unmistakable disaster from day one. They'd have been better off sticking with the general Oldies format, nuking Micky freakin' Dolenz and updating the format's target audience so they'd be viable from a revenue standpoint.

That being said, I'd also be very, very careful what fringe programming I'd air. I know, all the radio geeks & freaks want all the Doo-Wop shop crap back and a bunch of pre-Beatles features. Again- forget it. Why return to the days when demos were aging fast and billing was declining faster. "Yeah, but what would it hurt to just put a few hours of this & that..."? will be the next cry, but if I want my station to appeal to 40-somethings at all, I lose the pre-1967 image and feel...and music AND jocks. Love 'em to death, but the Cousin' Brucie and Harry Harrison glory days are o-v-e-r.

We are in agreement here. 'CBS-FM in its final days was a pretty crappy station. I listened to WKBW (WWKB) after sundown, until they flipped, instead of 101.1. When I'm out in SoCal, I love listening to KRTH. If WCBS-FM became a clone of k-earth 101, it'd be something I'd seek out. But, the specialty shows should return. WOGL in philly has 'em, without any detriment. Number 4 station in Philly, per PPM. David Eduardo must be cryin' in his beer ;)
 
Don said:
Number 4 station in Philly, per PPM. David Eduardo must be cryin' in his beer ;)

Philly is not oldies, it is classic hits. Exactly what I have been saying (and doing) for some time here. The non-speicailty sho plays are about 80% 70's.
 
murphmac said:
I am sticking to my statement. I listen to a station in Delaware called "the wave"92.1. They play all oldies. You know something, I find myself listening to this station the most even though I like classic rock and country. The reason is because they play songs that I haven't heard in a long time in addition to the "late sixties" and seventies! No I don't have to "wake up!" I will always say that commercial radio playlists are way too short. The same songs come up over and over and over. I worked at an adult contemporary station a while back and Mariah Carey would come up at least once an hour sometimes more. I wanted to vomit!! I left because I couldn't stand the repetition. With oldies, you have much more to work with. Why limit it so much? I'm not saying play all early 60's and 50's but throwing them in a few times during the hour doesn't hurt anyone. Also having sixties weekends and specialty shows enhance a station. You seem like you are describing an adult contemporary station. I don't like only sixties or only seventies or only fifties but I do like the combination. You know something ------I don't care about the "testing" thing. I think it's a bunch of crap and always have. It's one of the reasons why stations playlists are sliced to crap!

I know my opinion is probably in the minority of those on this board but it's what I've always believed.


Murphmac

Here on the Central Jersey shore, we have 'The Breeze' (107.1 WWZY Long Branch and 99.7 WBHX Tuckerton). Mr. Eduardo educates me that they bill 'soft AC' or something like that. Yet, they play a lot of late 60's music, and they have a specialty show on Saturday night; actually, a Saturday Night...gasp....OLDIES show! They do quite well in the Monmouth/Ocean book, and I think they have broken into the bottom of the NYC ratings (if they have not, Mr. Eduardo, forgive me...but the Saturday night show gets callers from Brooklyn and Staten Island).

I'm 47...according to Dr. Dave, I'm dead. Funny, I'm an Army Reservist, and not too dead to deploy. Maybe Dr. Dave will go on active duty to 'consult' AFRTS. Ha! He'd have to give up earning the big bucks...which will never happen!
 
DavidEduardo said:
Don said:
Number 4 station in Philly, per PPM. David Eduardo must be cryin' in his beer ;)

Philly is not oldies, it is classic hits. Exactly what I have been saying (and doing) for some time here. The non-speicailty sho plays are about 80% 70's.

Well, in Philly folks still refer to the station as OLDIES 98....NOT 98.1 WOGL. And it is NOT classic hits. It IS OLDIES, with a heavy 70's slant. Not too far removed from 'Motown, Soul and Rock and Roll.' They do, much to your chagrin, play 67-70 music, too. Horrors!
 
Don said:
Well, in Philly folks still refer to the station as OLDIES 98....NOT 98.1 WOGL. And it is NOT classic hits. It IS OLDIES, with a heavy 70's slant. Not too far removed from 'Motown, Soul and Rock and Roll.' They do, much to your chagrin, play 67-70 music, too. Horrors!


By industry standards, the station is classic hits, per the industry terminology. To clarify, we call staitons that play 50's and 60's or mostly 60's oldies, and mostly 70's hits stations are called classic hits. WOGL is classic hits. If you look at the higher rotation songs in Mediabase, they are about 90% from 1968 on (the mark of a classic hits station) and the rest are biggies from pre-68 and some (maybe 5% of the library) 80's songs.
 
Actually, you even have your Drake facts wrong. Drake pretty much introduced oldies to regular play, a move that deepened playlists from a pure Top 40 with 40 songs plus pick hits to several hundred songs including the gold.
[/quote]

God, how could a mere listener be right? The Drake playlists weren't all that deep. I remember WOR-FM in New York in the late sixties. Playlist was nowhere near 'several hundred' deep, although they did pay homage to the Fifties.
 
Don said:
God, how could a mere listener be right? The Drake playlists weren't all that deep. I remember WOR-FM in New York in the late sixties. Playlist was nowhere near 'several hundred' deep, although they did pay homage to the Fifties.

The gold was several hundred songs deep. The solid gold weekends repeated some of the songs as few as twice in 6 to midnight, so there were about 250 or so gold / recuerrent cuts in the library, most of which also played in the gold slots Monday to Friday. See Ron Jacob's book, complete with playlists and programming memos, to get an idea of how Drake used oldies to give additional depth and familiarity to the Top 40 fomat that had previously been just that: 40 songs.

I have worked for one of the former Drake PDs for the last 15 years, so I have a pretty good idea of the Drake formatics. Hell, I have a print of the KHJ studios and billboard and Melrose Ave. in my office... I flew about 5000 miles in 1965 to listen to KHJ when it went on the air!
 
Don said:
No doubt they do call it that. Consultants such as yourself have made the term 'oldies' verboten.

No, oldies is simply a different format... all 60's or 60's and 50's. It is a 45-64 format. Classic Hits is mostly 70's with flavor on either end, depending on the market and its competitive array. >The target is 35-54. Different music. Different demos, Different name.

They can call it whatever they want. Fly to PHL, meet me, I'll drive you around town, and you'll learn what the station's format really is, from the people who made it #4.

Keep in mind it is not quite that high 25-54, which is where it matters. But, in PPM, it is a lot higher than it was in the diary survey. 12+ numbers are useless, which is why you, in health care, get to see them for free.

Nobody is denying that WOGL looks very good in the PPM... but it is not an oldies staiton, and that is precisely why it does so well. And the subject here is what blend of gold WCBS FM will use to become viable in NYC.
 
Why get into the symantics of it all? "Classic Hits", "oldies", how about a whole new name? Yes, "modern oldies"...lol. Does it truly matter? The format has evolved, so be it. Everyone should be happy that CBS Radio understands that several bad decisions were made 2 years ago and that they are taking the right steps to correct those bad decisions. Let it be called "classic Hits", whatever term you want, but just be happy. This will not be your CBS-FM of 2 years ago anyway, and honestly, what would be wrong with that? The jocks who were on that version were awesome to listen to and truly are legends, but you have so much other talent out there who can make this a "fresh" version of CBS-FM. Relish in the moment, enjoy this station when it flips back, and stop pining over a past that is now nothing but nostalgia. This station can be great in it's own right....let it have a chance for goodness sake.
 
Oldies Cat said:
fang39 said:
I've participated in "music research testing" as done by radio stations in my local market (#'s 1 & 18, respectively). And when you come right down to it, that's exactly what it is because the diagnostics indicate if song A "tested" better than song B, then song B should not be played.

You're either fabricating attending a music test or the one you say you went to was garbage. Proper music tests don't pit song "A" against song "B" with the winner making the cut and the loser not being played.

Sheesh.

Not a fabrication, Cat. If you read my statement, you'd note that I was paraphrasing when I said "when you come right down to it." I've actually particpated in several different testing modes. In the early 90's, I was regular of a "telephone survey" for a local radio group, which consisted of about 20-30 minutes of Q&A about listening habits and music sound bytes. Compensation for this was a mailer-pack with coupons and a gift certificate to a local restaurant. Did that about 6 times over a three year period. I've also taken part in "auditorium" (actually it was a Hotel Banquet Room) testing of the pre-dial variety, where I had to rate several hundred songs by "my listening preference" and was then invited to join the ensuing focus group. For these tests, I was paid $100 each. And so, I stand by my statement, although slightly ammended..."when you come right down to it, that's exactly what it is because the diagnostics indicate if song A "tested" better than song B, then song B should not be played (or played less frequently)" 'Nuff said!
 
UncleBozzle said:
Why get into the symantics of it all? "Classic Hits", "oldies", how about a whole new name? Yes, "modern oldies"...lol. Does it truly matter? The format has evolved, so be it. Everyone should be happy that CBS Radio understands that several bad decisions were made 2 years ago and that they are taking the right steps to correct those bad decisions. Let it be called "classic Hits", whatever term you want, but just be happy. This will not be your CBS-FM of 2 years ago anyway, and honestly, what would be wrong with that? The jocks who were on that version were awesome to listen to and truly are legends, but you have so much other talent out there who can make this a "fresh" version of CBS-FM. Relish in the moment, enjoy this station when it flips back, and stop pining over a past that is now nothing but nostalgia. This station can be great in it's own right....let it have a chance for goodness sake.

You are correct. However, there are those on these boards who insist until their dying day it have the name or label "OLDIES" so they can feel like it's all original and connected to back-in-the-day.

What few of them get is that the "Oldies" brand name stands for something definitive: it IS top 40 music from the sixties (with a little late 50s and a bit of early 70s). These clowns think you can just attach that name brand to any set of music before 1980 and they are mistaken. That would be like taking the brand name "COKE" and having it attached to a line of bottled water- Coca Cola didn't do that, wisely, and they call their bottled water Dasani. COKE is a name for colas, OLDIES is a name for 60s-based radio formats.
 
How about we take the "Jack-like" format, clean it up a bit, and rename the format "Evolution"? We could be on to the best new format Oldies Cat. We can truly play anything from the 50's up until now. "Retro" is cool as any teenager will tell you. Heck, this would be novel programming....lol.
 
You could try it but, based on the extensive research on Oldies and Variety Hits I've seen, it would be too wide (strange as that sounds). Most of the successful Variety Hits stations ("Jack" mostly not among them) will play a little bit from the late '60s, but it's stuff like the Stones, Beatles and Brown-Eyed Girl (none of the light, poppy stuff). To most 45 year olds, "Sugar Sugar" is just too bubblegum and much pre-1967 to them is just plain too old ("it's like my parents' music" is what we hear a lot from those in their early 40s).

CBS-FM should just do classic top 40 from the late 60s to the early 80s and have fun doing it (and leave all the over-done Oldies trappings, like Top 5 @ 5 countdowns and theme weekends behind).
 
Oldies Cat said:
You could try it but, based on the extensive research on Oldies and Variety Hits I've seen, it would be too wide (strange as that sounds). Most of the successful Variety Hits stations ("Jack" mostly not among them) will play a little bit from the late '60s, but it's stuff like the Stones, Beatles and Brown-Eyed Girl (none of the light, poppy stuff). To most 45 year olds, "Sugar Sugar" is just too bubblegum and much pre-1967 to them is just plain too old ("it's like my parents' music" is what we hear a lot from those in their early 40s).

CBS-FM should just do classic top 40 from the late 60s to the early 80s and have fun doing it (and leave all the over-done Oldies trappings, like Top 5 @ 5 countdowns and theme weekends behind).

While agree with most of your statement, Cat, I have to firmly disagree with the part about the "over-done Oldies trappings." If the company wanted to present a new "Classic Hits" format and not "your parents" oldies station, they wouldn't employ the WCBS-FM call letters at all. The branding itself represents a heritage. That alone tells me there will be ties to the former "Golden 101." If not, then they will quickly be dismissed by the listening audience they lost when they flipped to Jack and are trying to win back. And if you tell us they don't want those listeners and their spending power back, you're mistaken. I also wouldn't be surprised if they re-instate the term "Oldies" into their imaging.
 
fang39 said:
Not a fabrication, Cat. If you read my statement, you'd note that I was paraphrasing when I said "when you come right down to it." I've actually particpated in several different testing modes. In the early 90's, I was regular of a "telephone survey" for a local radio group, which consisted of about 20-30 minutes of Q&A about listening habits and music sound bytes. Compensation for this was a mailer-pack with coupons and a gift certificate to a local restaurant. Did that about 6 times over a three year period.

That is called "call out" research, and almost exclusively done by stations that play currents and recurrents as a supplement to AMTs which are seldom done more than 2 times a year due to cost. The idea is to track new adds to see if they are working, and to determine current categories and rotations.

Compensation is not often given, so you were fortunate. And not all callout operations build panels, and few go as far as to use a panelist 6 times.

I've also taken part in "auditorium" (actually it was a Hotel Banquet Room) testing of the pre-dial variety,

Only a couple of companies use dials. More still use the paper form and Scantron to process. The advantage of the dial is that results can be given the very next morning... even with complexities like cluster analysis or "fit" scores.

where I had to rate several hundred songs by "my listening preference" and was then invited to join the ensuing focus group.

A breakout session is not that common, so you had an interesting experience. Many stations will not use focus groups due to the group dynamic generated in them, but a break out generally identifies a subset of the participants in the ATU (based on sign-in data or recruit data) which is consulted about some station concern that requires verbatim responses. Typical would be music mix issues, changes in themorning show, interest in a contest or to preview a potential TV spot. What did they ask you in the post-test session?

For these tests, I was paid $100 each.

Incentive can run from $40 to over $150, based on the level required to get people to show up. In Boise or Fresno, where traffic is not so bad, $40 might work. On Long Island, less than $125 and nobody shows.

And so, I stand by my statement, although slightly ammended..."when you come right down to it, that's exactly what it is because the diagnostics indicate if song A "tested" better than song B, then song B should not be played (or played less frequently)" 'Nuff said!

You are oversimplifying. Once a station has tested a few times, there are not that many songs that do not make the "playable" categories. It's all about adjusting spins... songs that are getting a bit burnt get slowed down (or rested) and ones that score high may get pushed up. Since there is a margin of error of several percent, even with a dial (paper tends to divide scores into quintiles, while dials are 0 to 100 usually) there is a gray area between rotation categories where the PD has to look at many different scores on a song (men, women, young, old, heavy listeners, etc.) to decide where a song belongs. This is where the difference between a paint by numbers PD and a good, intuitive, talented, creative PD come into play.
 
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