Question Regarding Market Boundry

[Loverboy]

Your arrogance is only matched by your ignorance.

The Walkman was invented in 1979. Critical mass came in the '80s.

What did I say? The Walkman started as a cassete player, not a CD player. This is correct.

Portable casette recorders prior to that were generally mono, generally low-quality, and certainly not used for jogging.

Cassette players started appearing in the mid to late 60's, and there were portable ones that one could carry about starting well before the Walkman, but they were just bulkier.

Prior to about 1977 or 1978, most radio listening was to AM, so the cassette compared very favorably with the "fidelity du jour."

Also, not very many people jogged in the 70's. Fitness was not yeat a "thing."

In fact, in the late 1970s, most FM radio transistors radios were still mono. Stereo gear of any sort was big, not carryable.

So? Much more than half of all FM listening TODAY is mono.

Most consumer tape machines in the 70s were 8-track, David, and were anything but portable.

I used to buy a new cassette recorder each time I went to Miami in the 60's. I had one in about 1968 that had an AM and FM radio, and a carrying strap. It was the size of a big DVD case (like the TV show seasons are packaged in) and I would carry these things all over with me to tape stations.

I never had an 8-Track, and did not even see one until they were "collectors' items" as they did not make much of an impact in most countries of the world.

Oh, yes, David. I lived thru that era, here in the United States, unlike you. Perhaps your LIFE magazines were delayed by the 3d class llama mail in whatever godforsaken pisshole you were living in.

I lived the entire period from 1971 to 1980 in the US.

Once, again, David, you made a mistake, and used it to snidely insult someone who made a valid point.

A mistake? Go on eBay and see all the late 60's and 70's cassette machines that are available.

Hell, in 1971 Gates / Harris had a fully automated (with tones like a Cart Machine) broadcast cassette machine.

This point, like others, will likely be lost on you.

David, for someone so smart, you sure are post some ass-bleedingly stupid posts.

You know, my first portable radio was a Zenith Trans Oceanic. At the time, people marveled at its protability. It must have weighed 20 lbs with the big batteries in it. Why did people think it was ultra-portable? Because it was portable compared to a console radio. People thought the original Compaq was protable, because it was when compared to an IBM PC. It must have weighed in at around 25 lbs, but it was portable by the standards of the day.

You are applying standards of today to devices of other eras. The least you could do is play fair.

David, I can't believe how off base you are. At first, I believed you were just wrong on some counts, now I think you're just making stuff up.

1) Actually the "Walkman" by Sony started as a RADIO...then cassette player in 1979. Obviously CD players (and mini disc players and mp3 players didn't come along until later. No one put you introduced the red herring "CD player" into the dialogue.

2) Yes cassette players existed in the late 60's & 70's, but certainly not for casual music listening use.

3) "Not many people jogged in the 70's???" In fact it was the HEIGHT of the "jogging craze" in America. If you were here David, you'd know it. It was even addressed in an American film called "Forrest Gump" (which I'm sure you've never seen).

4) You lived the entire period 1971-1980 in the U.S. were involved in radio and weren't familiar with 8-track???
Thats hard to believe. (Now that you're back...you've heard about cellphones haven't you??)

 

[zumahans]

Of course he's heard of cellphones, don't be absurd.

But he will also tell you that the introduction of cellphones has not changed the landline usage habits of Americans.

He will also tell you that Americans in the 1970s did not really need to use mobile phones because we were using CB radios.

He will also tell you that he ran an all-jogging format radio stations for the Phumatenque Indians in eastern Peru in the 1980s, until the voracious headhunters jammed the request lines with demands to switch back to the all-bus-schedule format.

 

[ricoontheradio]

He will also tell you that he ran an all-jogging format radio stations for the Phumatenque Indians in eastern Peru in the 1980s, until the voracious headhunters jammed the request lines with demands to switch back to the all-bus-schedule format.

While your attacks are often extreme, and digress from helping you prove your points, I will say the above comment is funny... in general. Not funny that you, like others on the site, continue to attack people. It was just a funny scenario to read.

Freedom of speech is great, but stupidity through expression is down right boring. You should really back off a little.

I can admit that I don't always agree with what David says, but it's not reason to attack him, and get so worked up about it. That is what makes this site great - INTELLIGENT debate. Unfortunately, that lacks lately.

Just my opinion.

 

[Loverboy]

Oh I dont think these attacks are personal at all.
In fact, I'm sure everyone concerned is quite intelligent (which is why the volley continues).

But, you must admit some of the assertions and statements disguised as facts are quite
laughable.

And it certainly beats another discussion on the viability of HDRadio (zzzzzzzzzz).

 

[davideduardo]

David, I can't believe how off base you are. At first, I believed you were just wrong on some counts, now I think you're just making stuff up.

1) Actually the "Walkman" by Sony started as a RADIO...then cassette player in 1979. Obviously CD players (and mini disc players and mp3 players didn't come along until later. No one put you introduced the red herring "CD player" into the dialogue.

We were discussing music playback devices, not radios.

2) Yes cassette players existed in the late 60's & 70's, but certainly not for casual music listening use.

Oh, really? I commonly found people taping songs off the radio, copying 45's and albums and such to cassette going back to thel ate 60's. It seems un-elegant to us today, but back then, it was amazingly avant garde.

3) "Not many people jogged in the 70's???" In fact it was the HEIGHT of the "jogging craze" in America. If you were here David, you'd know it. It was even addressed in an American film called "Forrest Gump" (which I'm sure you've never seen).

I did not see anything like today's fitness interest then. I did not see anything like the number of fitness clubs, biking teams, etc., etc. in the 70's as there are today.

But that is a digression. The real point is that "portable" is a quality that requires a "compared to what?" question. I gave the example of the "portable" Trans-Oceanic by Zenith and the Compaq portable... they WERE portable by that day's standards, but pale by those of today. You can not compare to what you do not know. We may have "radio" devices that are linked to some form of wireless and can be voice addressed and will be a fob on a keychain... that is portable, but we do not compare the XM Inno to that because it does not exist.

4) You lived the entire period 1971-1980 in the U.S. were involved in radio and weren't familiar with 8-track???
Thats hard to believe. (Now that you're back...you've heard about cellphones haven't you??)

The 8-Track thing was pretty short-lived, and mostly an in-car thing as I recall. I never saw an in-home or portable 8-track, although I can see them now on eBay. Since the 8-Track was simultaneous with the cassette while it existed, it never became universal. I don't recall recordable ones, and the initial appeal of the cassette was dubbing and recording. I still have late 60's and early 70's year-end countdowns from radio stations on cassettes I recorded off the air.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Hard to believe

A few things: It was a very entertaining read on this board and the Dallas board over the weekend.

Re. 8-tracks ... Few ppl I know back in the day (late 60s-mid-70s) had 8 tracks in their home... just in the car if at all. I had my first cassette player installed as an add on to the stereo system of my 1972 Lincoln Continental Mark IV which I bought new in January 1972. I did a lot of cassette recording from LPs, 45s, and FM radio starting in 1971.
I don't remember any wide-spread use or availabilty of portable stereo cassette devices in the early - mid-70s.

As to David's statement in Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 08:50:40 pm » Quote

"In the 70's, there were lots of portable cassette devices. The first Walkman was a cassette player, not a CD player. Of course, it helped if you had actually been through the era."

In his statement quoted above, he is insisting the FIRST sentence was INDEPENDENT of the second sentence. BUT we all can see what the implication intended was, otherwise why mention a Walkman other to imply that Walkmans were in wide-spread use in the 70s as a portable cassette device.


And then there is this whopper:

Much more than half of all FM listening TODAY is mono.

WHAT?!!??

That assertion is just about impossible to believe!
I would guess 99% of FM listening in a vehicle is in Stereo unless it's an NPR news/talk or a station like KLSX. At home and in the office, I would guess all FM music listening is in stereo.
I guess a few here missed David's assertion along with the other stuff.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

I don't remember any wide-spread use or availabilty of portable stereo cassette devices in the early - mid-70s.

I had portable devices from the late 60's on. They were "portable" only by the standards of the day (harcover book size, moving towards DVD set package size in the 70's). I travelled with these extensively.

"In the 70's, there were lots of portable cassette devices. The first Walkman was a cassette player, not a CD player. Of course, it helped if you had actually been through the era."

As Hans points out, although I assumed the discussion was about music players and not radios, I should hve said "the first Walkman that was not a radio..."

In his statement quoted above, he is insisting the FIRST sentence was INDEPENDENT of the second sentence. BUT we all can see what the implication intended was, otherwise why mention a Walkman other to imply that Walkmans were in wide-spread use in the 70s as a portable cassette device.

My only point was that Walkmans with music playback were first cassette pleayers, and then CD players. The Cassette Walkman came about 12 or so years after the first batter operated portable cassette players.


And then there is this whopper:

Much more than half of all FM listening TODAY is mono.

WHAT?!!??

That assertion is just about impossible to believe!
I would guess 99% of FM listening in a vehicle is in Stereo unless it's an NPR news/talk or a station like KLSX. At home and in the office, I would guess all FM music listening is in stereo.
I guess a few here missed David's assertion along with the other stuff.
[/quote]

Car listening is 30% of all listening. Most office and home listening is on table-top receivers, like clock radios and shower and kitchen radios, few of which are stereo. And "office" listening is not measured by Arbitron. At work listening is. And at work, like in the Jiffy lube, the receiver is either mono, piped on mono speakers in the shop, or off a boom box which looses the stereo separation about 3 feet from its speakers.

So, the listening in its majority is mono or, due to distance from the radio, functionally mono.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Re: Hard to believe

I don't remember any wide-spread use or availabilty of portable stereo cassette devices in the early - mid-70s.

I had portable devices from the late 60's on. They were "portable" only by the standards of the day (harcover book size, moving towards DVD set package size in the 70's). I travelled with these extensively.

Maybe for you I should have put in bold "wide-spread use" - You do understand what that means, don't you?

. At home and in the office, I would guess all FM music listening is in stereo.
I guess a few here missed David's assertion along with the other stuff.

Car listening is 30% of all listening. Most office and home listening is on table-top receivers, like clock radios and shower and kitchen radios, few of which are stereo. And "office" listening is not measured by Arbitron. At work listening is. And at work, like in the Jiffy lube, the receiver is either mono, piped on mono speakers in the shop, or off a boom box which looses the stereo separation about 3 feet from its speakers.

So, the listening in its majority is mono or, due to distance from the radio, functionally mono.

So you are saying instead of "At home and in the office, I would guess all FM music listening is in stereo" I should have stated "At home and at work, I would guess all FM music listening is in stereo"

NOW who is being petty??

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

Maybe for you I should have put in bold "wide-spread use" - You do understand what that means, don't you?

Cassette devices were in pretty wide-spread use in that era... being the mid-70's.

So you are saying instead of "At home and in the office, I would guess all FM music listening is in stereo" I should have stated "At home and at work, I would guess all FM music listening is in stereo"

NOW who is being petty??

I am saying that Arbitron does not measure office use. It meansures "at work" use. In most cases, at work use is not in an office. It is at theloading dock, the auto mechanic's shop, etc. And in many cases, it is via speakers that are mono.

Arbitron measures at home, at work, in car and "other" (which is at the beach, in the park, etc.). Most of the non-car listening is mono given the type of radio used. Even when a stereo boom box is used, unless you are sitting in front of it, it is not being heard in stereo.

 

[zumahans]

Let me get this straight:

Since the music is playing from a radio on one side of the room, it is therefore mono?

ARE YOU INSANE?

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

Davey----->As Hans points out, although I assumed the discussion was about music players and not radios, I should hve said "the first Walkman that was not a radio..."


No, you should not have confused the mass commercial rollout of personal music devices, which happened after the rollout of the Walkman tape deck in late 1979, with the very-limited use of cassette tape recorders that - as I was a technologically-friendly-but-without-money teenager in the 70s - were certainly not mass market music playback devices.

Nothing like the millions of pocket stereo tape players sold in the 80s.

Nothing like the Discmen and their knockoffs in the 90s.

Nothing like the MP3 players and IPods of the millenium.

Dave, stop drowning us with minutae trying to weasel out of your erroneous, nit-carcass-obsessed faux pas of a post.

LBOY posted that he did not see a lot of people playing personal photographs in the 60s and 70s to illustrate that big radio began to fracture and die once tape decks hit mass appeal in after the 1970s.

You immediately counter with a post that was (a) dismissively snotty, (b) ignored his point, (c) created an argument over a tangent, and (d) was facutally wrong.

Take a step back and lock at what you said, El Pluperfecto.

Then wonder why you engender such reactions.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Re: Hard to believe

Maybe for you I should have put in bold "wide-spread use" - You do understand what that means, don't you?

Cassette devices were in pretty wide-spread use in that era... being the mid-70's.

Geeeez you can't be this obtuse, can you?

OK Davey, pay attention to the following sentence I originally stated (It seems to me you are impaired in some way, as you continually twist things other people state to support your position)--- BTW note these words/terms and what they mean:"Wide-spread availability" and one you seem to not understand in the context of my sentence: "portable".

OK Davey, ready? Here goes again and I will even help remind you by putting the above-mentioned terms underlined in bold to make it easier for your comprehension---

I don't remember any wide-spread use or availabilty of portable stereo cassette devices in the early - mid-70s.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

Hey, 50 percent of radio listening is in mono.

Which ear?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Ya know, Davey forgot to mention that radio listeners who are deaf in one ear (what maybe 0.02% of the radio-listening population) listen in MONO.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

OK Davey, pay attention to the following sentence I originally stated (It seems to me you are impaired in some way, as you continually twist things other people state to support your position)--- BTW note these words/terms and what they mean:"Wide-spread availability" and one you seem to not understand in the context of my sentence: "portable".

OK Davey, ready? Here goes again and I will even help remind you by putting the above-mentioned terms underlined in bold to make it easier for your comprehension---

I don't remember any wide-spread use or availabilty of portable stereo cassette devices in the early - mid-70s.

Then your memory is failing you.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

Davey----->As Hans points out, although I assumed the discussion was about music players and not radios, I should hve said "the first Walkman that was not a radio..."


No, you should not have confused the mass commercial rollout of personal music devices, which happened after the rollout of the Walkman tape deck in late 1979, with the very-limited use of cassette tape recorders that - as I was a technologically-friendly-but-without-money teenager in the 70s - were certainly not mass market music playback devices.

Nothing like the millions of pocket stereo tape players sold in the 80s.

Nothing like the Discmen and their knockoffs in the 90s.

Nothing like the MP3 players and IPods of the millenium.

Dave, stop drowning us with minutae trying to weasel out of your erroneous, nit-carcass-obsessed faux pas of a post.

LBOY posted that he did not see a lot of people playing personal photographs in the 60s and 70s to illustrate that big radio began to fracture and die once tape decks hit mass appeal in after the 1970s.

You immediately counter with a post that was (a) dismissively snotty, (b) ignored his point, (c) created an argument over a tangent, and (d) was facutally wrong.

Take a step back and lock at what you said, El Pluperfecto.

Then wonder why you engender such reactions.

Radio usage was never higher in the post-Freeze era than in the mid and late 80's. Your basic premise is flawed.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

---->Radio usage was never higher in the post-Freeze era than in the mid and late 80's.

But it has gone down since, as users have gotten used to selecting their own music.

And more importantly, I thought you said radio usage is NOT going down.

Now you say it IS going down.

Which is it, David?

Which lie are we to believe this time?

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

Otherguy: I don't remember any wide-spread use or availabilty of portable stereo cassette devices in the early - mid-70s.

El Maximo Font of Knowledge ----> Then your memory is failing you.


David, you did it again. You make an insult that is beneath you, and make a stupid error of fact at the same time.

The Sony Walkman was, in fact and contrary to what you just said, the first major introduction into the consumer mainstream of portable stereo tape decks.

>"
PARK RIDGE, N.J., April 5, 1999 -- Twenty years ago, music listening was revolutionized by a pocket-sized 14-oz dynamo -- the Sony Walkman personal stereo. Introduced in 1979 as the "Soundabout," the Walkman stereo quickly altered the way we enjoyed music. Suddenly music could accompany listeners anywhere, anytime: in the car, on the subway - wherever life took them. Having a Walkman stereo meant creating a personal "soundtrack" for your life. Just as music serves as the beat of popular culture, the Walkman personal stereo has become a popular culture icon. It has become part of the landscape of street fashion, an everyday travel accessory, and a statement about one's personal style and even commitment to fitness. Since its introduction, Walkman portable stereos have been a huge product and marketing success. In fact, led by the Walkman stereo, Sony created a new industry of personal entertainment. "< http://history.acusd.edu/gen/recording/walkman2.html

>"The Walkman is a popular Sony brand used by the company to market its portable audio players, and is synonymously used to refer to the original Walkman portable personal stereo player. The original Walkman brought about a change in music listening habits, allowing people to carry their own choice of music with them."< http://www.answers.com/topic/walkman


There are DOZENS of academic and trade articles that repeat the same fact:

The use of tape players did not hit the mainstream american consumer until the Walkman in 1979.

It is YOUR memory that is faulty, and it is your SNIDE insults that have once again been dished out.

Insult + Error. You cannot resist that formula, El Pluperfecto.

You were wrong, David, and I'll wager you won't be honest or mature enough to admit it.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

Otherguy: I don't remember any wide-spread use or availabilty of portable stereo cassette devices in the early - mid-70s.

El Maximo Font of Knowledge ----> Then your memory is failing you.


David, you did it again. You make an insult that is beneath you, and make a stupid error of fact at the same time.

The Sony Walkman was, in fact and contrary to what you just said, the first major introduction into the consumer mainstream of portable stereo tape decks.

I disagree. As I said before, portability was and still is defined by what is the standard at any point in time for being portable. The first Compaq was a portable computer. It weighed about 25 pounds, but at the time was portable. It was not a laptop, though.

There were portable cassette devices with AM FM radios in the late 60's. They were portable, but not ultra-portable. The Walkman set a new standard for something you could clip to you belt or put in your purse, while previous portables were not that small and were not ultra-portable. But to say there were no portables is not true.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

---->Radio usage was never higher in the post-Freeze era than in the mid and late 80's.

But it has gone down since, as users have gotten used to selecting their own music.

And more importantly, I thought you said radio usage is NOT going down.

Now you say it IS going down.

Which is it, David?

Which lie are we to believe this time?

Radio usership has not gone down, as in the percentage of persons using radio. Cume.

Hours per week have gone down almost entirely in the demos radio can not serve... teens and 55+.