Question Regarding Market Boundry

[SuperRadioFan]

Re: Hard to believe

As I said before, portability was and still is defined by what is the standard at any point in time for being portable. The first Compaq was a portable computer. It weighed about 25 pounds, but at the time was portable. It was not a laptop, though.

There were portable cassette devices with AM FM radios in the late 60's. They were portable, but not ultra-portable. The Walkman set a new standard for something you could clip to you belt or put in your purse, while previous portables were not that small and were not ultra-portable. But to say there were no portables is not true.

Last point first... Who are you talking about -- that said "there were no portables "... Wasn't me.

"There were portable cassette devices with AM FM radios in the late 60's"

Yes, but show us statistics on their use.. Was it WIDE-SPREAD use??? I doubt you can say that with references, David.


So now I want to know when the first boom boxes became used by the majority of users.

 

[Loverboy]

Geez....it's unbelievable the twisting of truths.

There were desktop and carry standard size cassette machines availble for personal beginning in 1969.

The first ultra portable with matching mini headphones was the Sony Walkman which appeared in April, 1979.

Although phonograph records (albums and 45's) still dominated the record sales landscape, between 1970 and 1979 8-tracks were in second place accounting for just under 16% of record sales. Commercially recorded cassettes accounted for less than 5% (all coming in the last 3 years of the decade). Commercial 1/4" reel to reels also existed but never rose above 2% of the market. CD's weren't introduced until 1982 by a collaboration of Phillips and Sony.

The first commercially released Compact Cassette was: Billy Joel "The Stranger" in 1977.

The first commercially released pop CD (a classical collection was released initially) was: ABBA "The Visitors" in 1982.

Cassettes passed albums as the #1 purchased music format in 1983. CD's passed cassettes in 1989.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

-----> I disagree. As I said before, portability was and still is defined by what is the standard at any point in time for being portable. The first Compaq was a portable computer. It weighed about 25 pounds, but at the time was portable. It was not a laptop, though.


I won my bet, neither mature nor wise enough to admit you made a mistake.

------->There were portable cassette devices with AM FM radios in the late 60's. They were portable, but not ultra-portable.

How petty can you be, David?

The man's point was that personal portable music was limited to radio in the 60s and 70s.

Your squeals of denial, your penny-ante splitting of hairs, and you denial of the obvious mistake are - once again - here for all to see.


----->The Walkman set a new standard for something you could clip to you belt or put in your purse, while previous portables were not that small and were not ultra-portable. But to say there were no portables is not true..

That is why he did not say it. Nobody said that, other than you. He said personal electronics were rare in the 60s and 70s, a fact that has been written about ad nauseum.

You slip is showing and you are not man enough to say, "well, maybe you are right."

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

------->There were portable cassette devices with AM FM radios in the late 60's. They were portable, but not ultra-portable.

How petty can you be, David?

I had several cassete devices in the late 60's (I would stock up each time I went through duty free in Panama) from Sharp and, I think, PAnasonic, that were about the size of a hardcover novel. That, to me, is protable. They ran on batteries, and could easily be carried in a car or to the beach or whatever, as well as on travels.

My first transistor radio, an Emerson 888, was only slightly smaller... and that was about 1957 if I recall correctly.

Each, in its day, was VERY portable compared to the alternatives.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

----->I had several cassete devices in the late 60's (I would stock up each time I went through duty free in Panama) from Sharp and, I think, PAnasonic, that were about the size of a hardcover novel. That, to me, is protable. They ran on batteries, and could easily be carried in a car or to the beach or whatever, as well as on travels.

My first transistor radio, an Emerson 888, was only slightly smaller... and that was about 1957 if I recall correctly.

Each, in its day, was VERY portable compared to the alternatives.
[/quote]

Wow, a radio station employee with a tape recorder. How very representative of the general population.

David, please do not be offended when I ask this, but do you even have a clue what this conversation is about?

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

----->I had several cassete devices in the late 60's (I would stock up each time I went through duty free in Panama) from Sharp and, I think, PAnasonic, that were about the size of a hardcover novel. That, to me, is protable. They ran on batteries, and could easily be carried in a car or to the beach or whatever, as well as on travels.

My first transistor radio, an Emerson 888, was only slightly smaller... and that was about 1957 if I recall correctly.

Each, in its day, was VERY portable compared to the alternatives.

Wow, a radio station employee with a tape recorder. How very representative of the general population.

David, please do not be offended when I ask this, but do you even have a clue what this conversation is about?


[/quote]

I was not a "radio station employee" in 1968.

And the portable cassette devices I usually bought were sold in the duty-free of the Panama City Airport, which was 100% consumer orineted. I remember several times not being able to buy them since they sold out (I went through that airport at least once a month and it was the busiest in the area at the time).

There were consumer cassette portables dating to the late 60's. Consumers used them to record music fromt he radio, or from record players. Just because there were no prerecorded tapes does not mean there were no cassette recorders.

 

[Loverboy]

Re: Hard to believe

There were consumer cassette portables dating to the late 60's. Consumers used them to record music fromt he radio, or from record players. Just because there were no prerecorded tapes does not mean there were no cassette recorders.

That is true David. But the fact that there were no prerecorded tapes does mean that the record labels had not yet seen sufficient use by consumers to warrant them....and not for almost another DECADE. Personal cassette use was as prevalent in the late 60's/early 70's as DAT use was in the late 80's/early 90's. This thread was originally about radio listeners' means to tap into their personal collection rather than radio. And the fact remains that outside of home phonograph use, there was VERY LITTLE of it (although some, especially in Panama) before 1979.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

There were consumer cassette portables dating to the late 60's. Consumers used them to record music fromt he radio, or from record players. Just because there were no prerecorded tapes does not mean there were no cassette recorders.

That is true David. But the fact that there were no prerecorded tapes does mean that the record labels had not yet seen sufficient use by consumers to warrant them....and not for almost another DECADE. Personal cassette use was as prevalent in the late 60's/early 70's as DAT use was in the late 80's/early 90's. This thread was originally about radio listeners' means to tap into their personal collection rather than radio. And the fact remains that outside of home phonograph use, there was VERY LITTLE of it (although some, especially in Panama) before 1979.

The existence of prerecorded cassettes is NOT the point. Portable units, not intended for broadcasst use, were widely available and purchased. When I was programming a Top 40 in Birmingham in 1972, we incessantly got complaints from listeners that we 2talked ont he songs" when they were trying to record them. Lee Abrams, creator of the Superstars format, even had his stations play an album every night straight through... obviously so liteners with cassette recorders could tape... this started also in about 1972 to 1973 and Lee used the "hook" in dozens and dozens of Superstars markets.

And it was very frequent to hear of listeners or to see friends who converted all the best cuts on thier albums (and ones of friends) onto cassettes. Again, it did not matter whether there were prerecorded tapes. Folks could finally record compies in the order they wanted, and skip the stiffs they did not want to hear on vinyl.

The cassette recorders sold in the Panama City Airport duty free were not even used in Panama... only in transit passengers could buy. Your attempt to be funny failed.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

---->The existence of prerecorded cassettes is NOT the point. Portable units, not intended for broadcasst use, were widely available and purchased.

No, they were not widely accepted by consumers for recording and playing music. Most had tinny little mics and no line inputs. They were toys and novelties to record your kids' voices.

---->When I was programming a Top 40 in Birmingham in 1972, we incessantly got complaints from listeners that we 2talked ont he songs" when they were trying to record them.

Yes, technophiles had reel decks and were maing recordingss. But one eight inch take was widely and justifiably regarded as unreliable and low-fi.

---->And it was very frequent to hear of listeners or to see friends who converted all the best cuts on thier albums (and ones of friends) onto cassettes.

Not in the early 70s, dude, not in the early 70s.

----->Again, it did not matter whether there were prerecorded tapes. Folks could finally record compies in the order they wanted, and skip the stiffs they did not want to hear on vinyl.

Didn't take off until the 80s, pal. Tons of articles, look at Google.

----->The cassette recorders sold in the Panama City Airport duty free were not even used in Panama... only in transit passengers could buy. Your attempt to be funny failed.

Anyone who cites what was for sale at the Panama City dutyfree shop as evidence of U.S. POPULAR CULTURE is a bigger idiot than imaginable.

 

[semoochie]

I am completely baffled by a report of Billy Joel having the first commercially available prerecorded compact cassette! I bought more of them before 1977 than after! Soonafter I started driving, I bought my first car stereo. While at the store, I bought the just released cassette of Chicage VIII. That's the one with Old Days and Harry Truman. It was from 1975. Sometime around 1971, I was at my cousin's house. He gave me several prerecorded cassettes including "Bridge Over Troubled Waters", "Steppenwolf Gold" and "Silver Bird" by Mark Lindsay. I have a copy of "Traffic" that I found while walking down the street. I think it was about 1969. I haven't checked the date for the technology but is it possible that you misread the information for the defunct Elcassette? That sounds about right.

 

[Loverboy]

I am completely baffled by a report of Billy Joel having the first commercially available prerecorded compact cassette! I bought more of them before 1977 than after! Soonafter I started driving, I bought my first car stereo. While at the store, I bought the just released cassette of Chicage VIII. That's the one with Old Days and Harry Truman. It was from 1975. Sometime around 1971, I was at my cousin's house. He gave me several prerecorded cassettes including "Bridge Over Troubled Waters", "Steppenwolf Gold" and "Silver Bird" by Mark Lindsay. I have a copy of "Traffic" that I found while walking down the street. I think it was about 1969. I haven't checked the date for the technology but is it possible that you misread the information for the defunct Elcassette? That sounds about right.

Oddly enough you're right...in a way. Mercury Records released 26 albums at the end of the 60's and CBS (the label of Simon & Garfunkel and Chicago) also released cassettes in the early 70's due to a demand in Europe (where 8-track never took off) Other labels soon followed.
Because of the success of 8 tracks in America , for awhile and due to the fears of recording (something the labels have never really quelled)....the US resisted mass marketing of cassettes in America until 1977. They existed indeed, (but no matter what others may say) were never a prevalent part of consumer listening until the 1979 introduction of the Walkman.

 

[Loverboy]

Re: Hard to believe

The existence of prerecorded cassettes is NOT the point. Portable units, not intended for broadcasst use, were widely available and purchased. When I was programming a Top 40 in Birmingham in 1972, we incessantly got complaints from listeners that we 2talked ont he songs" when they were trying to record them.

The cassette recorders sold in the Panama City Airport duty free were not even used in Panama... only in transit passengers could buy. Your attempt to be funny failed.

A few points:

1) So you WERE programming an American radio station in 1972 and had no knowledge of 8-tracks?
Ever go into a Birmingham record store?

2) The fact that you clarified who bought cassette records in the Panama City Airport duty free shop makes the attempt even funnier than I had hoped for.

3) I think I have an aircheck of you in 1972, but unfortunately I kept stopping the tape everytime the talking started...so I just have the songs.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

A few points:

1) So you WERE programming an American radio station in 1972 and had no knowledge of 8-tracks?
Ever go into a Birmingham record store?

I was programming American stations or managing them from 1970 through today.

I stated before that 8 tracks were mostly an in-car device. How many portable 8-track players did YOU see?

2) The fact that you clarified who bought cassette records in the Panama City Airport duty free shop makes the attempt even funnier than I had hoped for.

Why would knowing that those who purchase at duty free are not local passengers so surprising? You must not travel much.

3) I think I have an aircheck of you in 1972, but unfortunately I kept stopping the tape everytime the talking started...so I just have the songs.

Not very funny.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

---->stated before that 8 tracks were mostly an in-car device. How many portable 8-track players did YOU see?

Uh, David, that was his original point, that he didn't see any portable 8 trak devices being carried by joggers. Recuerdo?

BTW, in-home 8 track layers were quite common in the 1970s. I think my cousins and I all received one for Christmas in 1972.




----->Why would knowing that those who purchase at duty free are not local passengers so surprising? You must not travel much.

Maybe if you had sepnt more time in the US you would have a clue what the subject is.


----->Not very funny.

No, but amusing enough to get a rise out of a defensive old man.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Re: Hard to believe

A few points:

1) So you WERE programming an American radio station in 1972 and had no knowledge of 8-tracks?
Ever go into a Birmingham record store?

I was programming American stations or managing them from 1970 through today.

I stated before that 8 tracks were mostly an in-car device. How many portable 8-track players did YOU see?

2) The fact that you clarified who bought cassette records in the Panama City Airport duty free shop makes the attempt even funnier than I had hoped for.

Why would knowing that those who purchase at duty free are not local passengers so surprising? You must not travel much.

3) I think I have an aircheck of you in 1972, but unfortunately I kept stopping the tape everytime the talking started...so I just have the songs.

Not very funny.

You're the only one probably who does NOT find it funny. Humble is not your middle name, DE.

Your remark about "You must not travel much" shows ignorance and huge ego-centricity. So back in those days, how much "traffic" goes through PANAMA David? We're not talking about Birmingham, Alabama or Birmingham, England. I'm sure you would not be able to pull out travel stats that support your implied position that lots of people travel to and from Pananma then or today.

And you never did address when boom boxes achieved wide-spread use.

Lastly, you seem not to be able to make the distinction between portable and non-portable use of cassette players.

I started taping songs off the radio with a home cassette deck (note I said "home") back in 1971 so I understand the complaint people had about the DJ stepping on intros or outros (is that even a word?) of songs. In '72 I was able to play them (for the first time for me) in my car. THERE is your "portability".

As Hans stated earlier "Anyone who cites what was for sale at the Panama City dutyfree shop as evidence of U.S. POPULAR CULTURE is a bigger idiot than imaginable." I concur.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Hard to believe

Your remark about "You must not travel much" shows ignorance and huge ego-centricity. So back in those days, how much "traffic" goes through PANAMA David? We're not talking about Birmingham, Alabama or Birmingham, England. I'm sure you would not be able to pull out travel stats that support your implied position that lots of people travel to and from Pananma then or today.

Panama was the hub for much Latin American travel into the 60's. In my case, flights from Ecuador stopped in Panama. Almost all Peruvian, Bolivian and Chilean flights did, too... even those converting to 707s from prop planes. Tocumen was the only airport that I used in the 60's that was full after midnight, with the food service places usually found to have lines waiting at 4 AM.

And you never did address when boom boxes achieved wide-spread use.

Since the boom box is just a rounded-corner derivitive of other portables, I don't attach much importance to the subject. Is there some reason you think I should?

Showing what I mean about boom boxes jsut being a progression, you will find some neat pirctures at http://pocketcalculatorshow.com/boombox/birth1.html

Lastly, you seem not to be able to make the distinction between portable and non-portable use of cassette players.

Something the size of a book with batteries was a portable in the 60's and early 70's. Something the size of a briefcase was portable in the 50's. What's your point?

As Hans stated earlier "Anyone who cites what was for sale at the Panama City dutyfree shop as evidence of U.S. POPULAR CULTURE is a bigger idiot than imaginable." I concur.

If portable cassettes hit what you are trying to claim was a backwater in the late 60's, then they musta' been all over the place in the US... as they were. Oh, by the way, and saving best for last, most of the canal Zone employees and family and a lot of military dependants flew out of Tocumen in that era... which is why the place was so Americanized.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Hard to believe

Thank you, David for that entertaining and historic travelogue.

Do have any slides you could show us?

 

[zumahans]

I take that as a no.

 

[davideduardo]

I take that as a no.

Actually, there are a whole bunch of Panama radio station photos on my website.

But you don't care, so why ask?

 

[zumahans]

I take that as a no.

Actually, there are a whole bunch of Panama radio station photos on my website.

But you don't care, so why ask?

Now why didn't I think of that?

Let me use my other terminal and pull that one up: OK, got it. Thumb down thru the lengthy resume, geesh this is long, OK.

Here's a picture of DE standing next to the transmitter. Gosh, well all looked so young back then.

Here's DE in front of a tower. Uh huh, looks like a Phelps Dodge.

Oh, and here's a picture of Our Hero jogging on the beach. Why, it looks like he has an Ampex reel-to-reel deck strapped to his back, with the power supply in a baby carrier in front, and a long extension cord. Don't trip, David!

Who is the young stud in the Speedos?