Radio Equalizer: More Accurate Ratings "Crush" KGO

[BossRadioDJ]

Brian Maloney blogs, under the following semi-hysterical headline, that KGO's ratings have taken a big hit:

San Francisco's KGO Takes Huge Tumble With New Ratings System

CRUSHED

New, More Accurate Ratings Damage Longtime SF Leader​

[EDIT]


The full blogpiece by Maloney can be read by clicking here.


[EDIT-post truncated because originating material is copyrighted.Unauthorized use of copyrighted content is in violation of Radio-Info's
TOS.]

 

[LKellerIII]

I'm not familiar with Maloney, but since he refers to Citadel's "overtly leftist management" and implies they are intentionally neglecting conservative talker KSFO - I'm guessing that Brian is not a liberal.

He notes that PPM still rates KGO number 1 with 12+, but has "tumbled" among the desired 25-54 demo. David Eduardo should confirm this, but I believe KGO's ratings among 25-54 was considerably lower than number one before PPM.

But yes, KGO would appear to have a problem. David has given a few examples of long established AM talk stations in other markets that saw their ratings improve significantly when they moved to FM, or started simulcasting.

 

[SFStatic]

KGO is #11 in 12+ cume in the July meter. KOIT is #1 12+, knocking on the door of a million and a half. KGO has less than 700,000.

 

[davideduardo]

He notes that PPM still rates KGO number 1 with 12+, but has "tumbled" among the desired 25-54 demo. David Eduardo should confirm this, but I believe KGO's ratings among 25-54 was considerably lower than number one before PPM.

Yep. In 25-54, KGO is 18th. The PPM is going to have a major effect on KGO as the system goes currency and agencies start buying off it. There wil be no real way to justify a buy on KGO at the agency level, as 55+ is just not a buy demo.

But yes, KGO would appear to have a problem. David has given a few examples of long established AM talk stations in other markets that saw their ratings improve significantly when they moved to FM, or started simulcasting.

There is a real trend towards FM, as it brings back in the 35-54's. But the SF geography makes it hard to cover as well as KGO with just one FM... they would need a South Bay signal, an SF one, and another in Santa Rosa to do it right.

 

[RadioStarOne]

Perhaps the time has come for Micky Luckoff and his friends to buy KGO and an FM or two to go along with it!David is right on! Put KGO on FM now.

Whatever anyone hears on KOIT-FM to make it so special is a mystery to me. There is just too many other ways to enjoy music than from just an FM station.

Why do I get the feeling that the PPM is just as flawed as the diary system.

 

[MikeAmatori]

Well I think you just hear KOIT and KIOI more places...Nail and Hair Salons, small stores and business. It's
kinda free muzak for those folks. I w

 

[MikeAmatori]

Well I know you just hear KOIT and KIOI more places...Nail and Hair Salons, small stores and business, Dentist and Doctors offices, and offices in general. KOIT for decades has promoted at work listening directly with business, offering on air mentions and off air contesting with the folks who have signed up. It was a very clever thing to do that has paid off for years and is now Really Paying off. kinda free muzak for those folks. I was at lunch last Friday and Movin was blasting in and outside the resturant, If you were sitting down and eating and had a ppm on they would be getting credit. This is the new reality.

Now,Talk radio is definatly not a Backround listen, music is. Yes The rate$ will change. KCBS has the advantage of being one of those opperations that you can drop by for about 20 mins and get what you need News Traffic Weather. then move on. If you listen, they get credit if you are there 5 mins or more. FM talk would/could help but it won't cure the 25-54 problem. PPM has shown that 25-54 is a big problem for spoken word stations everywhere so far. Some bright spots but not many. KQED does OK. Most of it network, much of it time shifted...And no pesty commercials, unless you count those funding credits for sleeptrain and BMW.

Talk Radio (and lets forget the AM/FM thing for the moment) is an older listen, you grow into it... When you just don't wanna hear Celine Dion or Elvis again. I think KGO, which has a bulk of older listeners 50+, will have to adjust rates. KGO was a 6.6 12+ for july/aug ppm. The Last Book, mid July put KGO at 5.2 12+.

And that #1 thing has always been based on the 12+ numbers. You all knew that. I've seen it here a number of times. But what do you do? Change everything and blow off what you have hoping to attract younger Demo? If the answer is yes, then fire lots of people, hire lots of younger sounding "stars" spend a fortune marketing it and hope for the best as quick as it can get there!!! Oh yeah and buy an FM or 3.

KGO has Lot's of listeners, they are just an older demo. What is amazing about ppm is you can actually look at an hour, min by min. The Demos, when they tuned in an out, if they went to other media, if they shut the radio off. It will be an amazing tool for programers, and a great weapon for managment of that I am sure.

Music Radio will do very well with PPM. Talk radio, not so much. But then I'm reminded of an AE I met a few weeks ago from Alice who told me they don't sell off ratings (Good cause they were worse than KGO's) they were an emotional or lifestyle buy. They sold programing not numbers. KGO will most likely do the same thing.

Oh, and just one final thought, If we ever have a Big Quake or Terrorist Attack, or Big Breaking News Event...
PPM will show where every one goes for Info...and I gotta a buck that says it won't be KOIT.

There will be change. But that's just my opinion.

 

[davideduardo]

PPM has shown that 25-54 is a big problem for spoken word stations everywhere so far. Some bright spots but not many.

Not true. Stations like KYW are up substantially in PPM over the diary system, and looks nice in 25-54. WABC beats its diary cume and share in NY in 25-54. Even rather wretched KTRH in Houston looks nice in 25-54, as does KFI in LA. The big stations look good, but they are teetering on the brink as they age... but that is not a PPM issue but a format and band issue.

Talk Radio (and lets forget the AM/FM thing for the moment) is an older listen, you grow into it... When you just don't wanna hear Celine Dion or Elvis again.

That transition comes at 35 or so if the talker is on FM, at 55 if the talker is an AM station.

I think KGO, which has a bulk of older listeners 50+, will have to adjust rates. KGO was a 6.6 12+ for july/aug ppm. The Last Book, mid July put KGO at 5.2 12+.

And it's 18th 25-54. There are essentially no agency 55+ buys, so KGO will need to look for more of those PI deals and direct accounts.

And that #1 thing has always been based on the 12+ numbers. You all knew that. I've seen it here a number of times. But what do you do? Change everything and blow off what you have hoping to attract younger Demo? If the answer is yes, then fire lots of people, hire lots of younger sounding "stars" spend a fortune marketing it and hope for the best as quick as it can get there!!! Oh yeah and buy an FM or 3.

The 35-54 group will not listen to AM. Any AM. The FM is a good idea.

KGO has Lot's of listeners, they are just an older demo.

Unsalable older demos.

Music Radio will do very well with PPM. Talk radio, not so much. But then I'm reminded of an AE I met a few weeks ago from Alice who told me they don't sell off ratings (Good cause they were worse than KGO's) they were an emotional or lifestyle buy. They sold programing not numbers. KGO will most likely do the same thing.

Billing is already off about a third in the last 8 years, so look for it to shrink even more if KGO stays AM only.

Oh, and just one final thought, If we ever have a Big Quake or Terrorist Attack, or Big Breaking News Event...
PPM will show where every one goes for Info...and I gotta a buck that says it won't be KOIT.

There will be change. But that's just my opinion.


[/quote]

 

[gameon]

PPM has caused SF to be even more compressed. The difference between #1 and #20 has shrunk to the point where as many predicted, everyone has the same ratings. Clients now have to be sold on the value beyond the quantitative. To paraphrase Prod Boy, its about lifestyle and programming. Qualitative becomes much more important. How the campaign integrates with the station and the brand is critical. Its really a good thing. The days of throwing your rank position on the desk and collecting the orders are over. Now you really have to demonstrate to clients that your station will provide a platform to deliver the right audience in an environment that will help their message break through.

KGO's bigger problem is that when you compare their PPM performance to KCBS and KNBR, they now are clearly below those other Big AM's in key demos. They can sell through it. But it will be a challenge.

 

[LKellerIII]

PPM has caused SF to be even more compressed. The difference between #1 and #20 has shrunk to the point where as many predicted, everyone has the same ratings. Clients now have to be sold on the value beyond the quantitative. To paraphrase Prod Boy, its about lifestyle and programming. Qualitative becomes much more important. How the campaign integrates with the station and the brand is critical. Its really a good thing. The days of throwing your rank position on the desk and collecting the orders are over. Now you really have to demonstrate to clients that your station will provide a platform to deliver the right audience in an environment that will help their message break through.

KGO's bigger problem is that when you compare their PPM performance to KCBS and KNBR, they now are clearly below those other Big AM's in key demos. They can sell through it. But it will be a challenge.

I'm hoping that same "lifestyle and programming" rationale will help KDFC stay afloat. I don't know the demographics of the typical classical music listener...I would assume that it is older - but also more affluent. Mimi pointed out that Asians love classical music, and they certainly would be better educated and more affluent that average, I would think. If, as gameon says, the stations are compressed in ratings, the rationale for selling lifestyle would seem to become more important.

 

[davideduardo]

PPM has caused SF to be even more compressed. The difference between #1 and #20 has shrunk to the point where as many predicted, everyone has the same ratings. Clients now have to be sold on the value beyond the quantitative. To paraphrase Prod Boy, its about lifestyle and programming. Qualitative becomes much more important. How the campaign integrates with the station and the brand is critical. Its really a good thing. The days of throwing your rank position on the desk and collecting the orders are over. Now you really have to demonstrate to clients that your station will provide a platform to deliver the right audience in an environment that will help their message break through.

The real issue for agency buys, which is where the most use of ratings occurs, is the choice of a number of stations and the collective reach and frequency of the campaign in each market the agency buys. In fact, it may be less about the nature of the station's programming and more about the way a group of stations, bought together, gets the best reach and frequency for the money. Two highly duplicative stations may find only one of them being bought, but stations with a better carved niche or, on the other side, an immense cume, will do better.

KGO's bigger problem is that when you compare their PPM performance to KCBS and KNBR, they now are clearly below those other Big AM's in key demos. They can sell through it. But it will be a challenge.

In part, KCBS and KNBR offer information; KGO is mostly there for the entertainment value of the talk shows.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm hoping that same "lifestyle and programming" rationale will help KDFC stay afloat. I don't know the demographics of the typical classical music listener...I would assume that it is older - but also more affluent.

KDFC is 28th in 25-54. While it can certainly play on the income levels (OK, they get the Jaguar and Land Rover dealers), there is probably not enough business to keep ownership happy. KMZT in LA had the same issue... in the few years prior to going country, billings fell to the point they "did not cover expenses."

 

[Laurence Glavin]

I'm hoping that same "lifestyle and programming" rationale will help KDFC stay afloat. I don't know the demographics of the typical classical music listener...I would assume that it is older - but also more affluent.

KDFC is 28th in 25-54. While it can certainly play on the income levels (OK, they get the Jaguar and Land Rover dealers), there is probably not enough business to keep ownership happy. KMZT in LA had the same issue... in the few years prior to going country, billings fell to the point they "did not cover expenses."

The "dumbed-down" type of self-described "classical music" is a different format from REAL classical music...more like the "beautiful music" FM's that existed two decades ago, with possibly the same kind of audience: not really LISTENING, but having it on in the background, except for concert and opera broadcasts.

 

[LKellerIII]

The "dumbed-down" type of self-described "classical music" is a different format from REAL classical music...more like the "beautiful music" FM's that existed two decades ago, with possibly the same kind of audience: not really LISTENING, but having it on in the background, except for concert and opera broadcasts.

Yeah, I know that. I'm probably a typical classical music listener. Though my father loved classical music and opera (along with other genres), I grew up listening to Top 40, then "free-form" album rock. I got disillusioned with the crap that passed for rock by the late 70s, and got interested in jazz. I'm no jazz scholar, but I've listened enough to know the genre fairly well.

I've come to enjoy classical music lately, and I really do listen (some of the time, anyway). But I'm probably a "dumbed down" listener. If I had 28 hours in a day, and 8 days in a week, I'd try to educate myself and make time to get into more eclectic classical music. I heard years ago that KDFC was the "Lite" classical station, and KKHI was the place to go for a more eclectic play list. But I'm about a dozen years too late for that. Maybe someday...

 

[JEREMIAH]

SOMONE MENTIONED PROGRAMMING TO A "LIFESTYLE"....
THEY USED TO CALL IT "PSYCHOGRAFICS"....AS OPPOSED TO "DEMOGRAFICS". I REMEMBER THE BUZZ ON THIS AS FAR BACK AS THE '70s. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO IT?

I WANT TO SAY HI TO MY OLD COMRADE "PRODUCTION BOY" WE SERVED TOGETHER IN THE U.N. ARMED FORCES.

JERRY GORDON KNUU LAS VEGAS (S.F. RADIO-TV VET)

[email protected]

 

[davideduardo]

The "dumbed-down" type of self-described "classical music" is a different format from REAL classical music...more like the "beautiful music" FM's that existed two decades ago, with possibly the same kind of audience: not really LISTENING, but having it on in the background, except for concert and opera broadcasts.

If a "familiar classics" format can't get into the top 25 stations in 25-54, immagine how horribly a "real" classical station would do.

 

[MikeAmatori]

I WANT TO SAY HI TO MY OLD COMRADE "PRODUCTION BOY" WE SERVED TOGETHER IN THE U.N. ARMED FORCES.

JERRY GORDON KNUU LAS VEGAS (S.F. RADIO-TV VET)

[email protected]
[/quote]



Yes Jerry, my old friend, ALL we soldiers and sailors of the UN remember Phychografics...I also remember a quite a few Phycho's, most of which are in radio managment these day...Ahh Good Times

So as I come to the end of my time on the radio it's good to know that thanks to The PPM, Listeners no longer have to Listen to radio, because The PPM is listening for them...

My best to Mrs. Gordon, It was great serving with her too. As we used to say after a hard day in the trench...Viva Lumania.

PB-Out

 

[Domino Rippy]

Yes that's very true the "Wife purse" will be listening to the radio because that's where she will attach her PPM.

"Coach Purse you're on line one thanks for being on the show"

"Purse number 9 wins the trip to Hawaii call now"

Oh yes and the husband's PPM will be sitting in the front seat of his car all day long. Like he wants to keep that on his belt loop.

 

[davideduardo]

Yes that's very true the "Wife purse" will be listening to the radio because that's where she will attach her PPM.

"Coach Purse you're on line one thanks for being on the show"

"Purse number 9 wins the trip to Hawaii call now"

Oh yes and the husband's PPM will be sitting in the front seat of his car all day long. Like he wants to keep that on his belt loop.

The motion sensor and its algorithm can determine what parts of the day should be counted.

 

[BossRadioDJ]

I'd like to revisit the comment about KGO adding an FM, which might be a stretch considering the current economic conditions in the industry.

Would adding an FM signal help KGO attract additional listeners?

What possible FM facility could Citadel go after -- KBLX (102.9 FM) perhaps? How good is KSTN-FM's signal in the metropolitan Bay Area (at 107.3 FM)?

Perhaps an LMA would work?