Rock in New York City

[atlantaboy]

you posted that WRFF/Philadelphia doesn't consider itself an Alternative station, and their website is titled "Philadelphia's Alternative"

Again, again, again. We are talking about the business decision to put alternative, in whatever color and flavor might result, on an FM in New York City.

Stations often "brand" for listeners in a different manner than how they self-describe for the industry and for advertisers. Among the stations you mentioned several posts back are stations that play music that is partly or all from the alternative charts but which do not identify themselves to Arbitron or to the industry as "alternative."

I don't see how this matters, man - let me rephrase the statement... Nearly all Top 40 markets have stations with playlists based on the Alternative chart - there are only a handful of exceptions, including NYC

Regarding ratings, which someone asked about...
Los Angeles has an Alternative share of 5.8
Chicago has an Alternative/AAA share of 4.3
San Francisco has an Alternative/AAA share of 4.2
Dallas has an Alternative/AAA share of 4.3
Houston has an Alternative share of 4.6
Philadelphia has an Alternative/AAA share of 5.5
Atlanta's new Alternative station is at a 3.3, but that's with a signal that only covers half of the city limits (their share under Rhythmic CHR had been a 1.9 when they flipped it to Alternative two months ago)

Just to reiterate, by flipping a Rhythmic CHR to Alternative, Clear Channel brought ratings up from 1.9 to 3.3 in 2 months

The Alternative/AAA share in New York City - 1.1

 

[MoldaMania182]

Stations often "brand" for listeners in a different manner than how they self-describe for the industry and for advertisers. Among the stations you mentioned several posts back are stations that play music that is partly or all from the alternative charts but which do not identify themselves to Arbitron or to the industry as "alternative."

David you really need to stop talking. Everything from Clear Channel's own corp site to yes, Arbitron, bills WRFF as an Alternative station. Stick to arm chair consulting Spanish language stations 3k miles away from NY.

For everyone else. http://imgur.com/a/bg7ym

I pretty much only come back to this board for laughs, clearly anyone can say anything on the internet.

 

[davideduardo]

A good example for this conversation is the recently launched radio 105.7 in Atlanta, a city who's demographic makeup isn't overly different then that of New York City, and if anything, New York City has a more robust suburban area to further support such a station--after only a few months on the air, the station is at a 3.3--and the market has a history of under performing rock stations.

The root issue here is whether any station in New York is performing so badly that the risk of a format flip, the reality of losing the equivalent of about 8 to 10 months of revenue and the low power ratios often associated with alternative justify such a flip.

No Clear Channel station is in this position.

The lower performing CBS stations double as effective flankers against CC's AC and CHR offerings; this is important because agency buys often look for reach as well as frequency and lowering the reach (and share, of course) of Lite and Z-100 benefits CBS.

ESPN is not going to change: the station was bought with a mission.

SBS is a Spanish language broadcasting company. No change. Same for UVN.

Cumulus is not about to change either station. Emmis does well with Hot, and would be unlikely to change. Yucaipa won't be changing the increasingly successful WBLS, either.

Bottom line: no potential or obvious stations for a flip.

 

[davideduardo]

Stations often "brand" for listeners in a different manner than how they self-describe for the industry and for advertisers. Among the stations you mentioned several posts back are stations that play music that is partly or all from the alternative charts but which do not identify themselves to Arbitron or to the industry as "alternative."

David you really need to stop talking. Everything from Clear Channel's own corp site to yes, Arbitron, bills WRFF as an Alternative station.

As I responded to Atlantafanboy, I am, at a personal level, willing to accept that this station (and others he mentioned) are alternative based formats. However, they don't self define as such and are not listed as such in the sources referred to by buyers... things like BIA and the Arbitron SIP. WRFF is still listed in BIA as "rock" and was so last year in the SIP.

And this whole format discussion was only really a sidebar to the real issue of whether any operator of a full signal FM is in need of a new format and willing to sacrifice existing billing for much of a year to try out a format that has no guarantee of working in NY.

Stick to arm chair consulting Spanish language stations 3k miles away from NY.

When did they move the ESB to the West Coast?

 

[Barry]

WNYE on 91.5 FM already rebroadcasts 6 hours of alternative rock each weekday morning from WFUV HD3. Much of the rest of the day they carry a hodgepodge of international music and AAA type rock, as well as some talk and ethnic shows. Perhaps if there was some indication alternative rock fans were tuning into it in significant numbers, the station could increase the amount of alternative rock programming. It is a station with a decent signal that could probably benefit from some more focused programming.

 

[davideduardo]

Regarding ratings, which someone asked about...
Los Angeles has an Alternative share of 5.8
Chicago has an Alternative/AAA share of 4.3
San Francisco has an Alternative/AAA share of 4.2
Dallas has an Alternative/AAA share of 4.3
Houston has an Alternative share of 4.6
Philadelphia has an Alternative/AAA share of 5.5

While we can quibble about which stations identify to Arbitron about being alternative or not, mixing AAA and Alternative is rather extreme. It is more far fetched than mixing Hot AC with CHR (where there is considerable overlap and it's sometimes hard to tell whether some stations... like KRBE... are one or the other) yet nobody combines Hot AC and CHR for comparisons of total shares.

And, there you go again on the 6+ ratings numbers. 6+ is meaningless. That is why Arbitron gives it away for free.

And for a viability analysis, it is revenue and potential power ratios that are looked ad. Since a significant percentage of Alternative stations have poor power ratios, that has to be a major concern for anyone looking today at the format as anything except a "what else can we do" solution.

A couple of observations on power ratio are germane (with "power ratio" being defined as the conversion of ratings to proportional revenue shares in the market).

Where there are power ratios in excess of 1, at many instances are in towns with big college populations, such as Austin and Tallahassee. Others are heritage stations, like KROQ.

The underperforming stations range from Dallas, Charlotte and Las Vegas which are around 0.9 conversions, to Columbus, Pittsburgh, Tucson, Providence, Norfolk, San Francisco, Boston, Kansas City, Honolulu, Hartford and Knoxville (and many others) which are in the 0.6 to 0.8 range.

The preponderance of alternative stations that are underperforming... meaning they get something around $0.60 cents on the dollar rate-wise... would really scare most operators considering a switch.

Atlanta's new Alternative station is at a 3.3, but that's with a signal that only covers half of the city limits (their share under Rhythmic CHR had been a 1.9 when they flipped it to Alternative two months ago)

Actually, it puts a 60 dbu over 75% of the market, and is usable in cars in just about 100% of the market, per signal analysis. In any case, the signal is better suited for alternative, and the rhythmic format left only $2 million on the table when they flipped. Either Fresh or Now would dump around $15 million each were they to flip.

"Again, again, again. We are talking about the business decision to put alternative, in whatever color and flavor might result, on an FM in New York City."

You still have not addressed this core issue... there is no station in NYC at this moment which gives any appearance of being a candidate for a costly flip to Alternative.

 

[davideduardo]

WNYE on 91.5 FM already rebroadcasts 6 hours of alternative rock each weekday morning from WFUV HD3. Much of the rest of the day they carry a hodgepodge of international music and AAA type rock, as well as some talk and ethnic shows. Perhaps if there was some indication alternative rock fans were tuning into it in significant numbers, the station could increase the amount of alternative rock programming. It is a station with a decent signal that could probably benefit from some more focused programming.

Unfortunately, WNYE tends to be a no-show and has picked up zeros in all dayparts since February... When it has gotten any numbers, which is two of the last 10 books, it was in one instance just mornings and in the other mostly mornings with a 0.1 in middays.

 

[Barry]

WNYE on 91.5 FM already rebroadcasts 6 hours of alternative rock each weekday morning from WFUV HD3. Much of the rest of the day they carry a hodgepodge of international music and AAA type rock, as well as some talk and ethnic shows. Perhaps if there was some indication alternative rock fans were tuning into it in significant numbers, the station could increase the amount of alternative rock programming. It is a station with a decent signal that could probably benefit from some more focused programming.

Unfortunately, WNYE tends to be a no-show and has picked up zeros in all dayparts since February... When it has gotten any numbers, which is two of the last 10 books, it was in one instance just mornings and in the other mostly mornings with a 0.1 in middays.

The fact that what ratings WNYE does get are in mornings when they are broadcasting alternative rock, and that the mishmash of other shows during the day has virtually no listeners seems to support the point I made. If they devoted more of their daily programming to alternative rock, instead of the jumbled mess of unrelated shows they currently air, the station could have more respectable numbers. Word could get out that this is a place to listen to alternative rock.

 

[atlantaboy]

After all this discussion, I finally realized why CBS (and certain posters associated with CBS) don't want to flip 92.3 to Alternative - CBS owns 102.7, classified as Hot AC, but which differentiates itself from WPLJ by playing edgier tracks off the Alternative chart

By flipping 92.3 to Alternative, CBS would be shooting Fresh-FM in the foot

 

[benson86]

Realistically, the only way Alternative comes to NYC in the foreseeable future (1 to 3 years) is if WBAI is sold. The station starts from 0, so nothing to lose. The new owners would have to determine if Alternative is the best option, or if another format would generate more revenue. At the end of the day, it's always a business decision.

 

[davideduardo]

After all this discussion, I finally realized why CBS (and posters associated with CBS) don't want to flip 92.3 to Alternative - CBS owns 102.7, classified as Hot AC, but which differentiates itself from WPLJ by playing edgier tracks off the Alternative chart

By flipping 92.3 to Alternative, CBS would be shooting Fresh-FM in the foot

I don't know of any of the posters on this subject who are associated with CBS. Maybe you can enlighten us?

In any case, the majority of the Hot ACs that have found success in PPM have done so by eliminating the heavily rhythmic stuff from CHR and adding the Alternative crossover material to a greater extent than CHR has done.

If we look at the best performing example of a Hot AC, KBIG, in a market with arguably the most successful alternative station in the world, KRQO, we see that KBIG shares half its cume with a CHR KIIS, 40% with co-owned CHR AMP, 36% with an AC station, 30% with Power, a rhythmic and hip hop station, and 25% with Alternative KROQ.

Playing crossovers or having moderate title overlap does not create cannibalization such as you suggest. Those of use who operated large clusters in a single market (in my case, back as far as the 60's) learned that it is what you play that the other station does not play that defines you.

 

[davideduardo]

Realistically, the only way Alternative comes to NYC in the foreseeable future (1 to 3 years) is if WBAI is sold.

Bingo.

 

[tjolsen]

if the downward slide that wwpr seems to be on continues it may be a candidate for a flip but that would probably be in several months at least, though Radio 105.1 does have a nice ring to it.
I'm still reasonably certain that once wwfs is moved in to the city it switches to Alternative, signal difficulties and all.
As for WNYE while I personally quite like the programming from the Alternate side it tends to superserve a very select part of the alternative audience in such a way as would never make it viable on a commercial level.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

Realistically, the only way Alternative comes to NYC in the foreseeable future (1 to 3 years) is if WBAI is sold.

Bingo.

I'm pretty sure the most likely prospect is Cumulus' 103.9 unless CBS decides to surprise everyone and flip one of their under-performers.

WBAI is about to miss payroll again after failing to reach their latest fundraising goal by ~50%. I think they've pre-empted all programming now to do 100% emergency fundraising (again). So it's definitely a wild card but they seem to be able to pull a rabbit out of their hat time and time again.

WNYE carries a non-commercial college indie rock format with a lot of unfamiliar, non-hit music in the morning, on a block-formatted public radio station that runs NPR and foreign language programming the rest of the week with zero promotion. It's not really a fair barometer of how a commercial Alternative rock format would do. The last version of WRXP would be a better comparison for that.

 

[davideduardo]

if the downward slide that wwpr seems to be on continues it may be a candidate for a flip but that would probably be in several months at least, though Radio 105.1 does have a nice ring to it.

WWPR still is at or above a 4 share in 18-49, and most viable. It places in the top 10 in this increasingly important sales demo, and its 18-34 share has actually increased in the last book to a one-year high.

And that's why looking at 6+ numbers are so dangerous. It's a beauty contest, but irrelevant for the business model of radio in the last few decades.

 

[XCountry285]

Power really isn't needed either because a lot of their songs "Justin Timberlake for example" have been played on Hot 97, KTU, & Z100. Too much overlap with KTU definitely & Z. Also why can't CBS flip Fresh to Alternative? They aren't doing as well as PLJ anyway and PLJ isn't doing that well.

 

[atlantaboy]

Philadelphia. Billing up about 5% 2011 to 2012, but they are 18th in the market in revenue with one of the worst power ratios for a significant facility that I have ever seen... 0.3.

David, this is what you posted about WRFF/Philadelphia

According to the All Access PPM Analysis, WRFF (the Alternative station in Philadelphia) ranks #1 in the market 18-34

http://www.allaccess.com/net-news/a...rector-inc-presents-exclusive-may-ppm-atlanta

Sorry, but I can't find any credibility for any of the figures you're posting - clearly, I feel like you're either using faulty/dated sources, quoting information out of context, or just making information up

 

[chrocket87]

^ What you posted are demo ratings ranks, not revenue ranks.
I can't believe I actually had to post this :
And you can't find credibility in his figures lol :

 

[chrocket87]

Power really isn't needed either because a lot of their songs "Justin Timberlake for example" have been played on Hot 97, KTU, & Z100. Too much overlap with KTU definitely & Z. Also why can't CBS flip Fresh to Alternative? They aren't doing as well as PLJ anyway and PLJ isn't doing that well.

Same as Now. Why would they flip a profitable station to something that has not succeeded in the market in over a decade? Would you do that if it was YOUR money? And, as for variety, radio is a business, not a buffet meant to satisfy everyone's individual tastes.

That being said, I think WFAS or WBAI will eventually flip to Alternative (the Mediabase definition).

 

[davideduardo]

Philadelphia. Billing up about 5% 2011 to 2012, but they are 18th in the market in revenue with one of the worst power ratios for a significant facility that I have ever seen... 0.3.

David, this is what you posted about WRFF/Philadelphia

According to the All Access PPM Analysis, WRFF (the Alternative station in Philadelphia) ranks #1 in the market 18-34

Sorry, but I can't find any credibility for any of the figures you're posting - clearly, I feel like you're either using faulty/dated sources, quoting information out of context, or just making information up

It really does not matter how a station ranks in the ratings if they are unable to sell that audience delivery.

That is why the industry uses "power ratio" as a metric to show the conversion of ratings to revenue. If a station has a 5 share, and only gets 2.5% of the market revenue, it gets a power ratio of 0.5 meaning it underperforms in revenue conversion by 50%

WRFF's power ratio is based on a trailing 12+ share of 4.7 (2012 12 book average) which is a 5.6% Local Commercal Share, and 2012 revenues of $4.2 million. That is 1.7% of all local revenue, for a power ratio of 0.30. In other words, extreme underperformance.

If you go the other side of NYC, WBOS has a power ratio of 0.48. In Hartford, WMRQ has a power ratio of 0.57.

It's extremely sub-par performance like this that frightens station owners when format decisions come to the table. It's not ratings, it's not what MediaBase calls your format, it's not iTunes downloads... it is pure and simple revenue.

The data is based on the 2012 billing... the latest available... and the Arbitron data for the market. There is no "context" in this. The data is the most accurate available and there is no better total market data available to anyone.

You really have to stop blaming the messenger and accept the facts on this. Quite simply, reality does not match your agenda but you lash out at anyone who presents the real facts.