Say Goodbye to the AM Band

[kenhawk1160]

You and I know that selling sports has nothing to do with advertising. It is about either supporting the home town team, or supporting a team that the advertiser's kid is on. If I had a penny for every $100 in retail sales generated by H. S. sports, nationally, I could probably not even buy a Hundai.

I love how those of us in larger markets are criticised for bigness when small market radio perpetrates these huge frauds on local advertisers, such as the belief that local H.S. sports actually is advertising rather than a "you had better be in the games or you will be thought of as not having town spirit." Just awful.

David
(Who has probably owned more AMs than you... 10 in total between 1964 and 1972... and would not give $10 for one today)

I don't disagree that the majority of listeners are going to be found in your typical 6a to 7p dayparts. Yes, most AM's don't often make money at night...that is if you run nothing but syndicated talk or music. If you air very local programming like high school sports, you can and will make money doing so.

Now David, you may not give $10 for an AM station today, but if you know of one for sale at that price, let me know. I'll take that $10 station and put more than enough zeros behind it to make a killing with it. I say those who "can't make money" with an AM station aren't trying hard enough, or their goals for one are unrealistic.

 

[dbdigital]

You and I know that selling sports has nothing to do with advertising. It is about either supporting the home town team, or supporting a team that the advertiser's kid is on. If I had a penny for every $100 in retail sales generated by H. S. sports, nationally, I could probably not even buy a Hundai.

I love how those of us in larger markets are criticised for bigness when small market radio perpetrates these huge frauds on local advertisers, such as the belief that local H.S. sports actually is advertising rather than a "you had better be in the games or you will be thought of as not having town spirit." Just awful.

David
(Who has probably owned more AMs than you... 10 in total between 1964 and 1972... and would not give $10 for one today)

I don't disagree that the majority of listeners are going to be found in your typical 6a to 7p dayparts. Yes, most AM's don't often make money at night...that is if you run nothing but syndicated talk or music. If you air very local programming like high school sports, you can and will make money doing so.

Now David, you may not give $10 for an AM station today, but if you know of one for sale at that price, let me know. I'll take that $10 station and put more than enough zeros behind it to make a killing with it. I say those who "can't make money" with an AM station aren't trying hard enough, or their goals for one are unrealistic.

BTW, Art Astor is flipping his station, KSPA 1510, to Adult Standards another format along with Country that a certain ego-bloated corporate radio apologist has dismissed as unprofitable for So.CA.

db

 

[lash]

Ah, he says every format, except for talk is not profitable on AM radio. He says talk on AM is dyin too.

Yet, I get up in the morning, and drive my Lexus to my little AM radio station each day.

 

[davideduardo]

BTW, Art Astor is flipping his station, KSPA 1510, to Adult Standards another format along with Country that a certain ego-bloated corporate radio apologist has dismissed as unprofitable for So.CA.

db

That is one dog of a facility. It lies right in the middle of no-man's land (the area between LA County and the Riverside San Bernardino Arbitron market) where there are no MSA ratings (just a piece of TSA for the IE twoice a year) so any sales are going to be direct.

The station made a bit of money for many years as a Spanish language station, but then fell into a parade of formats. The fact that the coverage area is so diverse makes it hard for a local station to cater to any significant local group. And standards is, even in a more monolithic market, a tough sale. Country, in the shadow of Froggy, must have been even worse an endeavor.

There is simply no way to make standards profitable in SoCal, where the LA TSA is, just like the MSA, about 75% ethnic and immigrant... a group that has essentially no interest in US standards in English.

This one will change format again, quite soon... or be sold.

 

[kenhawk1160]

That is one dog of a facility. It lies right in the middle of no-man's land (the area between LA County and the Riverside San Bernardino Arbitron market) where there are no MSA ratings (just a piece of TSA for the IE twoice a year) so any sales are going to be direct.

The station made a bit of money for many years as a Spanish language station, but then fell into a parade of formats. The fact that the coverage area is so diverse makes it hard for a local station to cater to any significant local group. And standards is, even in a more monolithic market, a tough sale. Country, in the shadow of Froggy, must have been even worse an endeavor.

There is simply no way to make standards profitable in SoCal, where the LA TSA is, just like the MSA, about 75% ethnic and immigrant... a group that has essentially no interest in US standards in English.

This one will change format again, quite soon... or be sold.

Did anyone ever think of multicultural programming for this station? World Radio Network maybe? If it's that highly concentrated in an ethnic population, why not cash in on it? There's an audience out there for everyone.

 

[davideduardo]

Ah, he says every format, except for talk is not profitable on AM radio. He says talk on AM is dyin too.

I acutally said that in the context of large, rated markets. Obviously there are many profitable stations on AM that are not talk or derivitives (sports talk, all news, etc.) such as ethnic (Korean in LA, Vietnamese in Houston, Russian in NY) or brokered (Art Liu is one wealthy man due to this).

But talk is moving to FM from AM due to the inability of AM to attract sales demos (under 55) which in any market dependent on agency business is crucial. In the last year, we have seen WTOP in DC move to FM entierely, a new FM talker in New Orleans, WOKV in Jax starting an FM simulcast in the manner of KSL in SLC and KTAR in Phoenix moving entirely to FM from one of the market's only 2 decent signals. We have seen WNLS in Talahassee move to FM, leaving sports on the AM. An FM talker in Pittsburg is not beating KDKA consistently in any demo that is salable. Talk moved to FM in Dayton, too.

AM is unknown or irrelevant to the under-45 demos in markets with a decent FM population. To under 25's, it is unknown. Add BPL, LED stoplight controllers, halogen lamps, dirty power lines, our home and office computers and the 120,000,000 gaming consoles in the US and all the interference they produce on AM frequencies, and you have a situation where in most areas and to most Americans AM is only useful, if at all, when there are hugely powerful signals to be had.

Yet, I get up in the morning, and drive my Lexus to my little AM radio station each day.

You are hardly in a rated market. And I can lease a Lexus for $350 a month... new. Of course, we should remember that the average US radio station grosses less than the average McDonalds by more than 50%... so what you have is the same thing as a local hardware store or dry cleaners... a small local business. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it lasts. Your problem is not your programming and local focus... it is the fact that you are a very low power AM.

 

[davideduardo]

Did anyone ever think of multicultural programming for this station? World Radio Network maybe? If it's that highly concentrated in an ethnic population, why not cash in on it? There's an audience out there for everyone.

LA already has Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Tagalog and other Asian formats or perogramming. It also has two Farsi staitons (on FM SCA and the other a decent AM), 16 Spanish stations (and another 6 or so from the IE) , and even Russian! Every significant group is being served by the roughly 80 signals in the LA MSA.

The station's biggest problem is being at 1510 in an area of horrible ground conductivity. Bad frequency, bad conductivity.

What is WRN? I am not familiar with it.

 

[lash]

Lease that Lexus David. Proud that mine is paid for.

Several of the FM talkers that you mentioned are simulcasts of their AM counterparts. Those AM's have the ratings, but Clear Channel and the rest are either to cheap or to stupid to program something else, so the quick and easy way is to simulcast them.

So lets review all of David's posts. AM is dead, except for a few talk stations. No other formats can work anywhere on AM. Local Sports are a waste and make no money on AM stations.

FM is where its at. But, mostly ethnic formated FM's in major cities, programmed and researched by David.

So I'll say it. I program, own and run American AM radio stations. And we do it well. I wouldn't program an ethnic format if I was down to my last dollar. And if programmed right, with the right format and personalities, an AM can still beat one of the poorly programmed stations owned by CC, Entercom or any of the big media jerks.

The world of radio is not going to be saved by your ethnic programming. Please stop pushing it down our throats.

 

[dbdigital]

BTW, Art Astor is flipping his station, KSPA 1510, to Adult Standards another format along with Country that a certain ego-bloated corporate radio apologist has dismissed as unprofitable for So.CA.

db

That is one dog of a facility. It lies right in the middle of no-man's land (the area between LA County and the Riverside San Bernardino Arbitron market) where there are no MSA ratings (just a piece of TSA for the IE twoice a year) so any sales are going to be direct.

The station made a bit of money for many years as a Spanish language station, but then fell into a parade of formats. The fact that the coverage area is so diverse makes it hard for a local station to cater to any significant local group. And standards is, even in a more monolithic market, a tough sale. Country, in the shadow of Froggy, must have been even worse an endeavor.

There is simply no way to make standards profitable in SoCal, where the LA TSA is, just like the MSA, about 75% ethnic and immigrant... a group that has essentially no interest in US standards in English.

This one will change format again, quite soon... or be sold.

If Art Astor and Saul Levine, two mavericks in town that is by turns dysfunctional and timid in regards to radio, think their is money to be made in Adult Standards and Country, that's good enough for me.

Those two have been in radio for a helluva lot longer than you. They didn't become and stay successful station owners by losing money.

db

 

[Tom Wells]

When all the money is gone from AM, and no one can afford to keep a signal on the air, maybe the FCC will re-authorize hobby stations
so that those interested in radio as an ART can serve the few radio/music geeks left.

Don't see this ever happening, though I am sure there are more than a few people like myself who would find ways to put a good signal on the air for next-to-zero $, and volunteer staff the operation.

I still consider FM as inferior, yes, even for music. I find most AMs have better drive-around coverage at distance.
And I prefer the signal degradation of AM to that of FM.

Regarding all the noise-producing devices, blame the FCC.
They were supposed to keep these devices from being sold, as not complying with Pt 15.
Or require manufacturers to properly engineer devices to not create discontinuous-current RF byproducts.
I won't even use flourescent lights in my house.
I have no SCR dimmers, and run the whole house current through EMI/RFI filters, right after the meter.
I chose my house by first scouting for clear RF background noise.
Not many people would go to this extent, but then they wonder why their AM is "unlistenable".

 

[radionut925]

When all the money is gone from AM, and no one can afford to keep a signal on the air, maybe the FCC will re-authorize hobby stations
so that those interested in radio as an ART can serve the few radio/music geeks left.

Don't see this ever happening, though I am sure there are more than a few people like myself who would find ways to put a good signal on the air for next-to-zero $, and volunteer staff the operation.

I still consider FM as inferior, yes, even for music. I find most AMs have better drive-around coverage at distance.
And I prefer the signal degradation of AM to that of FM.

Regarding all the noise-producing devices, blame the FCC.
They were supposed to keep these devices from being sold, as not complying with Pt 15.
Or require manufacturers to properly engineer devices to not create discontinuous-current RF byproducts.
I won't even use flourescent lights in my house.
I have no SCR dimmers, and run the whole house current through EMI/RFI filters, right after the meter.
I chose my house by first scouting for clear RF background noise.
Not many people would go to this extent, but then they wonder why their AM is "unlistenable".

That's amazing, someone preferring the staticky sounds of AM to FM. How many people actually listen to AM these days, aside from talk shows or sports?

 

[davideduardo]

Lease that Lexus David. Proud that mine is paid for.

Big deal. 4 to one trade? You were the one bragging about the car. I don't want a Lexus, and don't lease... I was just showing that a Lexus today is not an expensive car.

Several of the FM talkers that you mentioned are simulcasts of their AM counterparts. Those AM's have the ratings, but Clear Channel and the rest are either to cheap or to stupid to program something else, so the quick and easy way is to simulcast them.

Actually, the FM talkers are transitions if they are still on AM at all.

KTAR in Phoenix kept the AM in a simulcast after putting n/t on FM, but will drop it for sports on AM January 1. In 3 months, they have more than doubled the 25-54 numbers on the format, going from below 15th to 7th in that key demo.

WTOP in DC totally dropped AM upon moving to FM, and saw a huge increase in 35-54, which means improved sales.

KSL in Salt Lake City has noted a huge improvement in 25-54, and they may use the AM for a different format soon.

New Orleans is a brand new sign on, competing with WWL; the success of Clear's FM talker in Pittsburgh has shown them they can take on the old-line AMs and win in 25-54.

Tallahassee is a total move to FM. Dayton and Jacksonville are transitions, where the AM will eventually drop the format. In every case, a huge spike in 25-54 has been generated, making the prospects for this becoming a fast-moving trend even more probable.

So lets review all of David's posts. AM is dead, except for a few talk stations. No other formats can work anywhere on AM. Local Sports are a waste and make no money on AM stations.

That is not what I said and you know it. If the only way you can defend AM is by twisting my posts, then I have proven my case quite amply.

FM is where its at. But, mostly ethnic formated FM's in major cities, programmed and researched by David.

I did not, of course, say that, either. If you are trying to be funny or sarcastic, use an emoticon... since your humor is not very apparent.

So I'll say it. I program, own and run American AM radio stations.

And I program and run American AM and FM radio stations. So what?

And we do it well.

Who would want to compete with you, really?

I wouldn't program an ethnic format if I was down to my last dollar.

My first job was with an "r&b" station in 1959. I am immensely proud of having begun in what you demeaningly call "ethnic radio." At the time, many did not think well of the Black audience we served... but we prospered and we were very influential in the times of Orvil Faubus, George Wallace and the Reverend King. "We will overcome" became a fait acomplit with a lot of help from the Black (or "ethnic" as you like to call it) audience.

In the 60's, there was nothing more noble than working for an "ethnic" station and helping a community that had been discriminated against. Today, working with US Hispanic stations has much in common; these stations are a voice as well as entertainment for the 42 million American Hispanics.

And if programmed right, with the right format and personalities, an AM can still beat one of the poorly programmed stations owned by CC, Entercom or any of the big media jerks.

No, it can't. There is not one iota of proof that this can or ever has been done.

The world of radio is not going to be saved by your ethnic programming. Please stop pushing it down our throats.

Well, at least we know that you are a bigot. That explains a lot towards understanding your attitude. Depending on how you define "ethnic" (and I think I am better off not knowing your definition), about a third of Americans today are "ethnic" if you only count Arabs, Persians, Asians, Hispanics and Blacks. That is a major part of America, and one not desrving of your dismissal and demeaning attitude.

 

[davideduardo]

If Art Astor and Saul Levine, two mavericks in town that is by turns dysfunctional and timid in regards to radio, think their is money to be made in Adult Standards and Country, that's good enough for me.

Those two have been in radio for a helluva lot longer than you. They didn't become and stay successful station owners by losing money.

db

Art has been losing money at his AMs for years. This is just another try to make something our of a bad facility... he should sell it.

Sol just plays with his AMs. I doubt he has made money from 1260 in many, many years. But he has the money, so he can do whatever he wants. I did several unprofitable stations when I was an owner back in the 60's just for the fun of it.

And I have been in radio for 48 years, so "heluva lot longer" does not really apply.

 

[lash]

Call me what you will. I am not a bigot. What you program is apples and oranges, to what we program. What you program ARE truly niche formats.

I am done responding to your posts here. But I'll end with the fact that your full of crap, on 90% of it.

Now I'll return to the oldies board, after finding oldies stations that surpassed your poor excuse for research.

 

[davideduardo]

Call me what you will. I am not a bigot.

Someone who refers to programming directed at Hispanics or Blacks "niche" ONLY because it is "ethnic" when staitons directed at such audiences are often market leaders (check who is in the top positions in Memphis, for example) has the hallmark of a bigot.

What you program is apples and oranges, to what we program.

As I said, we have a dozen stations that are in English... and therein lies the rub: the only difference in what I do and what you do is language. Every listener in the USA counts as a person, irrespective of language, race, ethnicity or whether they have fangs or not.

What you program ARE truly niche formats.

When two of the stations I am involved with are #1 and #2 in LA, the largest radio revenue market in the world, you would have to also call CHR, Churban, AC and such as niche formats, too (which they are, as none has a massive share)

In truth, all formats today are niche, whether "ethnic" (Black, Hispanic, etc.) or directed at non-Hispanic whites. None has anywhere close to a majority position in any market, even when all stations in an individual format are added.

I am done responding to your posts here.

That comes as a relief. It is getting very hard to be civil, which has been a reaction I have had to bigots since I first learned what "polling" was in Alabama in about 1961 when a group of us from WJMO went to help in voter registration.

But I'll end with the fact that your full of crap, on 90% of it.

Now I'll return to the oldies board, after finding oldies stations that surpassed your poor excuse for research.

55+ in rated markets is virtually unsalable. Those stations you mention are poor revenue producers save a couple, and most are far, far below the 12+ rank when you look at useful demos, like 25-54. You can't pull the wool over everyone's eyes by citing numbers that are so valueless that Arbitron gives them away for free.

 

[kenhawk1160]

What is WRN? I am not familiar with it.

David...here's the link:

http://www.wrn.org/services/commercial/index.html

 

[kenhawk1160]

You are hardly in a rated market. And I can lease a Lexus for $350 a month... new. Of course, we should remember that the average US radio station grosses less than the average McDonalds by more than 50%... so what you have is the same thing as a local hardware store or dry cleaners... a small local business. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it lasts. Your problem is not your programming and local focus... it is the fact that you are a very low power AM.

Actually David, Chris' AM is at 930 on the dial. Even with low power, it's still a like a mini-blowtorch at that dial position.

 

[kenhawk1160]

That's amazing, someone preferring the staticky sounds of AM to FM. How many people actually listen to AM these days, aside from talk shows or sports?

Here's what a lot of people aren't considering when it comes to AM. I've been working in Pittsburgh and the surrounding area for almost 20 years now. Lash and I at one point were head-to-head competitors for a few years. The market is still there for AM, and here's why:

Devices like iPods and such are NOTHING NEW. They're personal listening devices that allow you to hear your favorite music without commercials. When I was a kid growing up in the 80's, we had the Sony Walkman. Radios or cassette or CD players with headphones. Kids used them and so did adults who walked or jogged. Outside of that, they don't have their ears glued to them 24/7.

When Lash and I were competing, we ran contests at my AM station and collected listener information from contest winners. We found that we were meeting our 25-54 target audience VERY WELL. We found that our average listener was a 44-year-old married woman raising teenagers or had kids grown and moved out.

Think about that for a moment. 44-year-old woman in 2004. The Walkman was invented in 1978, when this woman would have been 18 years old, and FM was on its way towards being established as the leading technology.

The radio listener at age 18 isn't going to be the same in 20 years. Their needs as a listener change over the years. That age demands uninterrupted music. The 18-year-old woman who listened to FM Top 40 exclusively is going to grow up, and so are her tastes. She's going to graduate high school, go to college, get a career, and then boom, a husband, two kids and a minivan later, she's going to have to plan her day out in advance as the head of the household and primary spender in the family.

She will need to know the weather as to how to dress herself and her kids for school. She doesn't have time to read the paper, and the kids are always on the family computer, so she has to catch whatever is making news on the fly. Turn on that car radio and tune it to the local AM station. She won't have time to catch the 6pm news because she's running around picking up kids from after school activities, or it's the family's mealtime. Because she has this routine to repeat in the morning, she doesn't catch the 11 o'clock news either.

Then she may find that she likes what she hears outside the news. I know a lot of AM stations that still play music, but its role is VERY SECONDARY. Information is first and foremost. I know of VERY FEW AM stations that program a music-intensive format also found on FM. Those who program music and nothing else (outside of a truly niche format) are going to lose and deserve to.

And Chris, though you and I do agree on a lot of things, I do have to respectfully disagree with you on one aspect...ethnic programming. We're more of a global society now than ever before, and we have more and more foreigners coming to America to perform jobs in fields that Americans are losing interest in, such as medicine, high technology, or engineering. WEDO has been doing ethnic programming for almost three decades now, and they're one of the very few profitable daytimers left.

Sima Birach in Detroit is making a fortune with his 13 AM radio stations, all of which are in major markets and most of them programmed with ethnic music.

 

[lash]

I'm not against ethnic programmed radio stations. I'm a huge fan of WDIA in Memphis and many others. I'm tired of David slamming other formats, and AM radio general.

He can continue to use all the research he wants, and I will continue to say he has a defeatest attitude and is lazy.

 

[Tom Wells]

Mr Birach bought one of my favorite AMs (WNWI) I listened to my whole life, and filled it with every language except english, and now
it's just another frequency I tune right past.

I consider it ethnic, and less useful to more people than it ever was before.
I am sure he's making money at it. Just not from me or other english-only americans.

I said goodbye to that frq, at least.