SONGS YOU'D LOVE TO HEAR ON KRTH-FM!

[davideduardo]

I know you're getting your data from some kind of program or database,

MediaBase, one of the services stations and record indiustry use to see airplay, monitors with actual radios in each market about 2000 stations 24/7. The audio is fed to computers which use very highly perfected software to compare each song with a fingerprint previously established for nearly every song that might be played in the US. When it gets a match, the song is recorded with a datestamp and station identifier.

Subscribers can see every song played for the last 10 years on monitored stations in a variety of sorts, by station by song, by artist, etc. It is very rare to find a missing song. The data is so exact that many of us use MediaBase to verify that our music logs are playing as desired and that our weekly rotation goals are being met.

but it just doesn't match what's on the air.

Actually, it matches, for most stations, 100%. Day in, day out. Hour by hour, day by day.

There are plenty of great old songs that may not score super high on some rating chart (which probably favors familiarity more than how much you'd like it) but are still good tunes.

There are no rating charts (whatever you mean by that). What does exist are music tests, that show both playable songs and the ones that will do lots of damage.

Familiarity and like are the two elements stations look for. We stay away from unfamiliar songs in all library based formats because if the song is not familiar it is not a hit today and we gain nothing playing a forgotten, un-favorite song.

Besides, LA oldies fans can't tune out anyway. They have no choice - there are no other oldies stations around. They could still play "Dancing Queen" and "Brown Eyed Girl" for the other seven or eight songs per hour to satisfy those who want the familiar, yet keep it from being so stale with more v-a-r-i-e-t-y.

The average listener uses at least three main stations. All that happens is the oldies listener spends more time with the others.

(And don't you dare say variety means heavy repetition!)

The perception of variety is 100% based on playing only songs each listener likes a lot, and few or no songs they don't like. Variety perception nearly 100% of the time increases as the playlist is shortened to contain higher scoring songs only.

I have beaten so many stations that thought variety was "a few more songs" than I can even count any more.

 

[oldies76]

D.E. I think Scooty430 means variety is what WCBS has to offer. (Playlist of 488+ songs, any extra songs added, themed weekdays, themed weekends, countdowns, DJ's knowledge of local hits, & other specials).

K-Earth only has Sunday morning Beatles, repetitious 70's at 7, and it's 502 songs that spin more frequent than CBS.

And remember, their weekends are their playlist of 502 songs, just shuffled around. It's nothing worthy.

Basically, CBS has "more to offer" (more variety) to the listener, than KRTH at this time.

That's what variety is meant by, among the two stations and what Scooty is trying to mention.
And it's true!

 

[BACKnUSSR]

I would say listening to KRTH every day would be like wearing khakis, a blue button down shirt, and a plain tie with tan loafers. Every single day.

White shirt? Nah. It doesn't test as well as the blue.

Hey, nobody's worn a tie-dyed t-shirt with a picture of Wavy Gravy on the front in years.
But...it was hip once. Let me do that and see if my boss takes me seriously.

 

[scooty430]

I would say listening to KRTH every day would be like wearing khakis, a blue button down shirt, and a plain tie with tan loafers. Every single day.

White shirt? Nah. It doesn't test as well as the blue.

Hey, nobody's worn a tie-dyed t-shirt with a picture of Wavy Gravy on the front in years.
But...it was hip once. Let me do that and see if my boss takes me seriously.

You completely missed the point. Yes, parachute pants and tie-dye shirts are out of style. That doesn't mean one can't wear different clothes each day and find creative ways to dress. Even guys that wear suits every day change their ties.

K-Earth wears the same tie every day. It's a nice tie. It matches. But K-Earth wears it every day. Same shoes too. He's been wearing the tie so long that people don't even notice how nice it is anymore. They only gossip about how he never wears anything different.

Once again, you're showing the mentality that anything off the list of 200-400 played to death "familiar favorites" is wildly out of date and ridiculous. Nonsense. There is plenty of music out there that is good, but not dated.

A smart radio station would connect with its listeners, re-introduce the older ones to forgotten goodies, educate younger listeners "turning them on" to old stuff, and mix things up.

Conversely, playing a short list of the same songs endlessly for ten or twenty years with faceless DJs is not great radio.

 

[scooty430]

I know you're getting your data from some kind of program or database,

MediaBase, one of the services stations and record indiustry use to see airplay, monitors with actual radios in each market about 2000 stations 24/7. The audio is fed to computers which use very highly perfected software to compare each song with a fingerprint previously established for nearly every song that might be played in the US. When it gets a match, the song is recorded with a datestamp and station identifier.

Subscribers can see every song played for the last 10 years on monitored stations in a variety of sorts, by station by song, by artist, etc. It is very rare to find a missing song. The data is so exact that many of us use MediaBase to verify that our music logs are playing as desired and that our weekly rotation goals are being met.

but it just doesn't match what's on the air.

Actually, it matches, for most stations, 100%. Day in, day out. Hour by hour, day by day.

There are plenty of great old songs that may not score super high on some rating chart (which probably favors familiarity more than how much you'd like it) but are still good tunes.

There are no rating charts (whatever you mean by that). What does exist are music tests, that show both playable songs and the ones that will do lots of damage.

Familiarity and like are the two elements stations look for. We stay away from unfamiliar songs in all library based formats because if the song is not familiar it is not a hit today and we gain nothing playing a forgotten, un-favorite song.

Besides, LA oldies fans can't tune out anyway. They have no choice - there are no other oldies stations around. They could still play "Dancing Queen" and "Brown Eyed Girl" for the other seven or eight songs per hour to satisfy those who want the familiar, yet keep it from being so stale with more v-a-r-i-e-t-y.

The average listener uses at least three main stations. All that happens is the oldies listener spends more time with the others.

(And don't you dare say variety means heavy repetition!)

The perception of variety is 100% based on playing only songs each listener likes a lot, and few or no songs they don't like. Variety perception nearly 100% of the time increases as the playlist is shortened to contain higher scoring songs only.

I have beaten so many stations that thought variety was "a few more songs" than I can even count any more.

The real test then, of WCBS vs. KRTH, would be to take the hours 10am-7pm Mon-Fri and over the course of a year, see how many different songs the stations play, total.

In the meantime, without any statistical analysis, we can plainly say that WCBS has four things KRTH does not: theme days, theme weekends that aren't fake, DJs that speak naturally, and specialty programs other than Beatles. Those things alone make it superior.

The people that actually HEAR THE ADS on KRTH are the people that leave it on all day. People in offices, people in delis, people in auto repair shops. Advertisers should be wanting to get more of THOSE people, and not the ones in cars who punch it up for a song or two, then switch away when an "unfamiliar" song or an ad comes on. I'd say the people who keep it on all day could handle, and might even LOVE, two or three surprise songs per hour. Or giving Brown Eyed Girl a rest from time to time.

 

[davideduardo]

I'd say the people who keep it on all day could handle, and might even LOVE, two or three surprise songs per hour. Or giving Brown Eyed Girl a rest from time to time.

And, at the end of this thread, that is why you are not programming a radio station. You are suggesting things that those of us who have programmed have tried, gotten screamed at or fired over, and which became learning experiences on what not to do on the radio.

 

[oldies76]

DavidEduardo You are suggesting things that those of us who have programmed have tried, gotten screamed at or fired over, and which became learning experiences on what not to do on the radio.

Then why is WCBS doing it? They are doing it!!! Scooty is right..Look at today's playlist on CBS,
& tell me they should all be fired or screamed at. They are still broadcasting, last time I checked.

Have any of you looked at the songs they play (mediabase list)?? It is nothing like KRTH's.

I can almost guarantee that some of the songs CBS plays are not tested songs, because we all know that just about all classic stations would not even consider playing them, even in NY. CBS played "Muskrat Love", "Feel Like Makin' Love" & Pop Muzik" today.

Would any other station play these, especially Cap't & Teneille Songs?? I highly doubt it, even in themes.

Obviously KRTH would not either in 100 years!! So why can WCBS get away with it then? And please don't tell me because it's NYC either.

If CBS can play specialties and other songs "outside" their playlist, why can't KRTH??? This has nothing to do with NY, it's a programming decision they have done.

L.A. can play it's tested songs too, but can also do real themes and specialties too, just like CBS. All Mr. Kaye has to do is decide to play themes & weekend specialties if the desire to do so is there!

 

[BACKnUSSR]

DavidEduardo You are suggesting things that those of us who have programmed have tried, gotten screamed at or fired over, and which became learning experiences on what not to do on the radio.

Then why is WCBS doing it? They are doing it!!! Scooty is right..Look at today's playlist on CBS,
& tell me they should all be fired or screamed at. They are still broadcasting, last time I checked.

Have any of you looked at the songs they play (mediabase list)?? It is nothing like KRTH's.

I can almost guarantee that some of the songs CBS plays are not tested songs, because we all know that just about all classic stations would not even consider playing them, even in NY. CBS played "Muskrat Love", "Feel Like Makin' Love" & Pop Muzik" today.

Would any other station play these, especially Cap't & Teneille Songs?? I highly doubt it, even in themes.

Obviously KRTH would not either in 100 years!! So why can WCBS get away with it then? And please don't tell me because it's NYC either.

If CBS can play specialties and other songs "outside" their playlist, why can't KRTH??? This has nothing to do with NY, it's a programming decision they have done.

L.A. can play it's tested songs too, but can also do real themes and specialties too, just like CBS. All Mr. Kaye has to do is decide to play themes & weekend specialties if the desire to do so is there!

I can GUARANTEE you that every song on WCBS-FM has been tested. And there are ZERO songs in regular rotation that have tested poorly. Actually since you mention it, Pop Muzik tests quite well!! Also, KRTH doesnt play 80s, its not what they do, so its an unfair comparison.

 

[oldies76]

Back in USSR I can GUARANTEE you that every song on WCBS-FM has been tested. And there are ZERO songs in regular rotation that have tested poorly. Actually since you mention it, Pop Muzik tests quite well!! Also, KRTH doesnt play 80s, its not what they do, so its an unfair comparison.

USSR, Do you really think "Muskrat Love" (1976) would test well enough to air on the radio again? What about "Billy Don't Be a Hero" or "Ma Belle Amie"......These do air on CBS now every so often.

Then if these "cheesier" songs are airing again (testing well), then people tastes must be changing.

This proves, once again, that listeners DO want to hear other songs besides the ordinary playlist of 488!!

And you know, just as much as anyone in radio that "Muskrat Love" is not in the regular rotation of any station playing classic hits.

KRTH does not venture..It's the same 502..over and over, give or take a couple.

 

[evalmaster]

As good as WCBS-FM is now, dont forget WLNG. Their variety puts everyone else away. And it works. Many local hamptons businesses have WLNG playing in their stores.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

Back in USSR I can GUARANTEE you that every song on WCBS-FM has been tested. And there are ZERO songs in regular rotation that have tested poorly. Actually since you mention it, Pop Muzik tests quite well!! Also, KRTH doesnt play 80s, its not what they do, so its an unfair comparison.

USSR, Do you really think "Muskrat Love" (1976) would test well enough to air on the radio again? What about "Billy Don't Be a Hero" or "Ma Belle Amie"......These do air on CBS now every so often.

I'm sure none of them are in regular rotation. And on weekends or in dayparts when listenership is down, they throw them in just to "widen the scope" a bit. There's less to lose in those dayparts. But songs that test poorly (as David has mentioned many times) ARE INDEED TUNEOUTS.

Then if these "cheesier" songs are airing again (testing well), then people tastes must be changing.

When you start hearing the cheesier non-hit stuff on Dan Taylor's morning drive show....either
1) you are correct and they are suddenly testing well...or
2) the station will suffer ratingswise

This proves, once again, that listeners DO want to hear other songs besides the ordinary playlist of 488!!

No it doesn't. It simply means Brian Thomas is "taking a shot" during meaningless dayparts.

And you know, just as much as anyone in radio that "Muskrat Love" is not in the regular rotation of any station playing classic hits.

Nor is it in CBS-FM's. Nor should it be.

KRTH does not venture..It's the same 502..over and over, give or take a couple.

Audience tastes don't venture much either. You are an exception.

 

[oldies76]

BackinUSSR I'm sure none of them are in regular rotation. And on weekends or in dayparts when listenership is down, they throw them in just to "widen the scope" a bit. There's less to lose in those dayparts.

It simply means Brian Thomas is "taking a shot" during meaningless dayparts.

Audience tastes don't venture much either. You are an exception.

That's my point...WCBS "widens the scope" & they are "taking a shot", even if it's during dayparts when there is less tuning in. The point is that CBS will play a few extra songs at some point in time.

Why can't KRTH do the same then, "take a shot" or "widen the scope"?

So really, the difference as to why CBS plays more extras than K-Earth, ultimately is a programming decision.

I have to disagree on the last fact then, that "Audience tastes don't venture much either". How can this be true?
Some, sure will only want the same 502 songs, but others will want a change eventually. It's just a fact of life.

From a "Radio" point of view, you might be correct, but as a "Listener" wouldn't you be bored a bit after hearing the same 502 with no extras & features?

 

[calguy]

It's funny, watching this thread go on like the Energizer Bunny. It proves that no one is ever satisfied. 3 years ago everyone hated the way KRTH sounded. Now they sound better musically than they have in years, but still, no one is happy. According to the complainers KRTH is only playing 502 songs, but it's obvious that Jhani Kaye is bicycling his songs to make those 502 sound bigger. He's changing the library around to keep the variety and diversity up. But still, no one seems to be happy. Think KRTH is playing too few songs? Well then go to the San Francisco board and listen to the complaints about KRTH's sister FM KFRC. I actually find it refreshing that these CBS stations aren't being run the same way. So WCBS sounds better to some and others like KRTH better. That's life. It could always be worse. At least there IS a WCBS, and there IS a KFRC, and there IS a KRTH. A few years ago the first two were nowhere to be found and 3 years ago it looked like KRTH was about to become extinct too. Sometimes you just have to be thankful for what you got, you know?

By the way, I hear 80's songs on KRTH, so how can you say they don't play 80's? Besides, every market is different. That's why what might work in one town won't work in another. Perhaps these programmers are actually trying to shape the sound of their stations to the markets they're in... Perhaps...

 

[airpab]

calguy-

Understand what you're saying, but KFRC is languishing!

They can try and make it sound as "local" as they want, but they are still at the bottom of the barrel ratings wise and they're still not very fun to listen to...It's not working!

It always comes down to two things...music and presentation. KFRC's music selection is weak and presentation is only ok?

KRTH and WCBS make KFRC look small-market, kind of 2nd tier. They can do better!

 

[calguy]

calguy-

Understand what you're saying, but KFRC is languishing!

They can try and make it sound as "local" as they want, but they are still at the bottom of the barrel ratings wise and they're still not very fun to listen to...It's not working!

It always comes down to two things...music and presentation. KFRC's music selection is weak and presentation is only ok?

KRTH and WCBS make KFRC look small-market, kind of 2nd tier. They can do better!

Okay, I can agree on that. My take on KFRC is that they're doing it on a shoe string. KRTH is "LIVE" till midnight. KFRC is tracked after 7pm. I actually think that KFRC's 99.7 incarnation sounded better in the months before it changed to MOVIN', but I suppose that wasn't working in the eyes of the "then" CBS honchos. CBS needs to spend a little more cash. Add to the airstaff and open the music up, but with all the budget cuts I don't see that happening. Even KRTH is now tracked overnights. KFRC has a few people from the "good old days" of the Big 610 and perhaps they should call on them for ideas. Dave Sholin was there in the glory years and is a smart guy. Perhaps he should be programming? For those of us who grew up with and love KFRC its great just to have those call letters on the air again, but for many, it's not working. I hate to say it, but maybe they should bring in the former KFRC PD who is now the WCBS PD for a little help.

 

[airpab]

Hear ya calguy.

Or maybe even just have someone from WCBS or KRTH consult KFRC. You'd think that it would be relatively easy since they're all CBS??

 

[BACKnUSSR]

calguy-

Understand what you're saying, but KFRC is languishing!

They can try and make it sound as "local" as they want, but they are still at the bottom of the barrel ratings wise and they're still not very fun to listen to...It's not working!

It always comes down to two things...music and presentation. KFRC's music selection is weak and presentation is only ok?

KRTH and WCBS make KFRC look small-market, kind of 2nd tier. They can do better!

Okay, I can agree on that. My take on KFRC is that they're doing it on a shoe string. KRTH is "LIVE" till midnight. KFRC is tracked after 7pm. I actually think that KFRC's 99.7 incarnation sounded better in the months before it changed to MOVIN', but I suppose that wasn't working in the eyes of the "then" CBS honchos. CBS needs to spend a little more cash. Add to the airstaff and open the music up, but with all the budget cuts I don't see that happening. Even KRTH is now tracked overnights. KFRC has a few people from the "good old days" of the Big 610 and perhaps they should call on them for ideas. Dave Sholin was there in the glory years and is a smart guy. Perhaps he should be programming? For those of us who grew up with and love KFRC its great just to have those call letters on the air again, but for many, it's not working. I hate to say it, but maybe they should bring in the former KFRC PD who is now the WCBS PD for a little help.

Brian is CBS's VP/Oldies Programming and is a consultant for KFRC.
Jhani Kaye does KRTH on his own.

 

[calguy]

Brian is CBS's VP/Oldies Programming and is a consultant for KFRC.
Jhani Kaye does KRTH on his own.

If he's consulting KFRC they may not be taking all of his advice.

 

[oldies76]

calguy It's funny, watching this thread go on like the Energizer Bunny. It proves that no one is ever satisfied. 3 years ago everyone hated the way KRTH sounded. Now they sound better musically than they have in years, but still, no one is happy.

Actually, you're correct. I just can't seem to convince USSR & D.E. that CBS is playing so-many extra songs "beyond the standard playlist" not including specialties & weekend themes. I check the Mediabase list of songs played everyday (midnight to midnight - 24 hours of spins) and the titles I'm seeing are just incredible. I mean to hear "Welcome Back" during morning drive a few days ago is something! "Welcome Back" is just not one of those songs you hear anymore, no matter what daypart it is. Or even "Muskrat Love" a few early mornings ago.

All I am trying to convey is, why KRTH sticks just to the same 502 songs with rarely, if ever new adds; but WCBS ventures with new additions every so often, beyond the 488. Do you believe "Welcome Back" by John Sebastian is part of the core 488, songs that rotates frequently? I have not seen "Welcome Back" during the last 7 days, except once. I understand the differences between the KRTH & WCBS core playlists, due to demographics.

How can WCBS play the extras? And why KRTH won't play these? I'm only talking about the extras, the rarities here, not the core playlists.

Also I am questioning how songs are tested, because the amount of song titles seen on WCBS's mediabase lists and the extent of them (core playlists, rarities, cheesies, extras) would lead me to believe outright, that NYC will just about accept anything (within format) that was ever popular in the past. Themes & countdowns are not included either.

KRTH's audiences will only test it's same 502 songs. That's all you hear on that station is a mix-up of those 502 with nothing more!!

Do you get my point here?

Please shed some light on this calguy. You seem to have summarized this thread correctly.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, you're correct. I just can't seem to convince USSR & D.E. that CBS is playing so-many extra songs "beyond the standard playlist" not including specialties & weekend themes. I check the Mediabase list of songs played everyday (midnight to midnight - 24 hours of spins) and the titles I'm seeing are just incredible.

MediaBase subscriptions can cost as much as a cheap new car, and are not otherwise available (except in extract form that is very limited in scope on AllAccess or similar sites) to the general public.

Please tell us how you can see MedaBase reports... just days ago, you did not even know it existed and still, I think, do not understand how the service monitors stations.