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Sony XDR-F1HD

hipporadio said:
The feedback I’ve heard on this tuner has been overwhelmingly positive, and after reading this thread, I decided to forgo a few evenings of “holiday cheer” and BUY ONE! Amazon wanted $86 for it, but no rebate was indicated [maybe it has expired or Big A didn’t know about it – and it’s tucked away in the box].

I should have it in time for my Christmas pilgrimage to my parents’ residence in east-central Indiana... DOZENS of FM HDs [many at adjacent channel addresses], many more FMs made “difficult” due to adjacent channel spacing, and EIGHT HD-[in]capable AM stations with dependable daytime analog service [albeit at 4.5k] – five at 50kw including WLW [near “local”] and WIBC [very strong].

Shocking as it may seem, I’ve freely volunteered to contribute cash to iBiquity’s royalty pot :eek: I strongly suspect I’ll keep this little box just for its analog RF properties, but as Paul Harvey said: “Stand-by for NEWS!” ‘Promise to keep an open mind. :)

Hope you have better luck than I did, unless I have a defective one which some people seem to think, analog's range still kills .FM HD It does sound a little better noting dramatic though, (AM HD is useless) and I bet the average person with average equipment won't know the difference. To me the lousy range, artifacts and difficulty (slowness) of tuning and locking in stations just makes it too much trouble to use and I'm a DXer and accustomed to working for my signals. I can imagine what the average Joe does (how do you spell r-e-t-u-r-n).
 
My FIRST personal purchase of “HD technology”—Sony’s demure XDR-F1HD was waiting yesterday evening. Amazon delivered it in five days despite the Thanksgiving holiday. This is the first “HD Radio” product I have had to opportunity to interface with my living room surround-sound audio system [a Sony ES 5.1 pre-amp/control center, Carver power amps, Polk speakers/250-watt powered sub] and directly compare performance with my three “heritage” component tuners: McIntosh’s MR-78 (1982); Carver’s TX-11B (1987); and Denon’s TU-680NAB (1990). The former offered “legendary” FM reception and audio quality for its era; the latter two feature dual I.F. on both AM and FM; notable innovations such as Carver’s exclusive FM noise and multipath mitigation plus “hi-fi” wide-bandwidth C-Quam AM Stereo; and Denon’s NRSC-compliant 7.5k “mid-fi” C-Quam capability.

This encounter is far from a “lab test” – no instruments involved... Only my perceptions and expectations as a consumer, but is the target customer for this product any different? So far, listening spanned one evening, early-morning, and some channel surfing at the office. “HD” reception occurred “in market” – generally within the 70dbu contours of Class C1 stations running 100kw [two stations are 25kw Class C3 facilities, but are not considered “rimshot” in nature]. I tossed the Sony-supplied antennas to the corner – opting to use a C Crane “FM Reflect” dipole for FM... Two external AM antennas with a “workaround” to accommodate the “balanced” nature of the XDR-F1HD’s AM RF inputs were tried—Terk’s “AM Advantage” loop [in wired mode] and a Dymek DL-4/DA-9 12-inch ferrite bar/active and tunable RF pre-amp with adjustable gain and a bypass option.

When I first sampled the prolific number of five-star reviews of this tuner on Amazon, I wondered if I was viewing an online convention of “HD Radio” apologists engaged in “seminar” posting to bolster a “finally, we have a winner” radio. It appears that their glee is rooted in more fact than fiction – on the FM band. All I had to do was drape the C Crane dipole across the top and down one side of my entertainment center, and EVERY local “HD” and HD-2 service [even on the Class C3s] appeared – and remained despite the path I took walking around the room. FM “HD” reception was SOLID and DEPENDABLE. The XDR-F1HD tuned and acquired “HD” signals much faster than the prior two “HD” radios I have handled [the BA and Sangean table models]. Audio quality is VERY GOOD on the primary services, but I did not notice a compelling advance beyond the audio offered by my much-older thoroughbred FM tuners in an A-B comparison [especially the 26-year-old MR-78 whose sonic capability was generally indistinguishable from that of the current-day contender]. The Sony was a bit quieter on a few stations whose format engaged a less aggressive modulation scheme, and the high-end on the usual over-processed culprits was more transparent in HD mode; but as earlier stated in this thread: Most casual listeners wouldn’t notice - much-less care about the difference.

I enjoyed two HD-2 services [interestingly on the 25kw C3 stations]: “Jammin Oldies” [classic soul] on WSCC and Jazz on WALC. The “JO” HD-2 service sounded uncharacteristically good! The WSCC primary “HD” service is News/Talk, so I’m wondering if they can or have allocated a higher bitrate to the HD-2 channel at an expense to the primary “HD” service due to the lesser demands of the voice-intensive format there. Jazz on WALC HD-2 sounded nice also, but all the other HD-2s were sub-128k mp3 in quality [not that 128k mp3 is the apex of audio excellence by any means]. The Sony XDR-F1HD is worth owning at its reasonable price to provide HD-2 and HD-3 services alone, but there appears to be an even bigger caveat packed into this little tuner...

Much has been made about the astonishing FM reception capabilities of the XDR-F1HD. My urban location and initial setup only allows me to scratch the surface of this tuner’s awesome performance to price ratio, but I get an initial sense that it lives up to its kudos. I found several distant stations [one adjacent to a nearby 50kw Class C2] that were sub-listenable on the TX-11B and TU-680NAB, borderline on the MR-78, but fully-usable on the XDR-F1HD. I wouldn’t have believed that an under-$100 tuner marketed by a company that long-ago surrendered its pursuit of FM excellence [remember Sony circa 1974] could have pulled off a difficult station snare that a McIntosh MR-78 could not. It is patently obvious that this tuner’s greatest finesse is not in its “HD” logo, but rather in its FM RF agility! I’ll be better-able to experience this in a few weeks when I return to the FM “sandbox” between Cincinnati, Dayton, and Indianapolis... Can’t wait!

There are no AM stations in ChasTown that have squandered their precious resources on “HD” [in]capability, so I’ll sweep this aside quickly. Regardless of the premium antenna that fed it, the Sony XDR-F1HD’s AM RF ability is “pedestrian” at best, and the analog audio is “typical modern Sony”—very little below 150Hz and nearly-nothing of substance above 2kHz. In fact, it was nearly identical to the pathetic no-attention-given sound offered by the “convenience” AM section in the ES surround-sound unit it was plugged into. I’ve heard shortwave that sounds better! As for “HD”... Despite a strong post-sunset signal from WBT Charlotte, there was never a “lock” and only very-brief and infrequent illumination of the “HD” indicator. Since the AM “HD” Emperor still appears to “have no clothes”, this AM tuner in analog offers little more than low-quality local listening... FORGET IT! Shame on you, Sony... What you scored thru DSP technology on FM – you sidetracked on AM :'(

Finally, “THE BAD”... [1] You could slow-fry an egg on the top of this tuner – IT RUNS HOT!!! [2] The control buttons are top-mounted dirt catchers. Both “bads” make for a no-good – plus an installation dilemma and potential service and longevity concern... 'Remember when your Engineer told you about the two worst enemies of electronic gear—HEAT and DUST? [3] There is no way to direct-enter a desired frequency :eek: ...The first Sony radio remote I’ve held without those ten little numeral buttons. [4] In analog, the FM high-frequency de-emphasis is inaccurate and results in a noticeable dulling of the high-end when compared with my other tuners. This has been documented elsewhere, and allegedly there is a “fix” in the pipeline. [5] WHY in the Master’s name, given the well-established inconsistent reception of “HD” signals on both bands, would a manufacturer design an “HD” radio without an “analog only” option? The XDR-F1HD forgot to include one also! There is an easy technician’s fix, so I’ll keep mine, but I’m wondering if Joe the Plumber will when his Sony keeps doing an analog-“HD” see-saw ::)
 
That is a very accurate review. At least, it concurs with my findings. Considering the author, I'm not surprised.

My friend Scott at Broadcast Warehouse in the UK, is contemplating marketing an add-on board for the Sony tuner which will allow it to do quite a few things the Sony factory left out. I have already told him I will buy three, and others have as well, so it is looking good that an easy to configure modification may be in the works. Interestingly, this modification is more software (and a way to configure said software) than it is an electronic modification. It will require adding a PC board and connecting some wires for power and interface. After that, everything is done in software. I guess that is the age we live in. It truly is a software defined radio. In fact, I've been told that the chip that does the AM section is actually tunable from roughly 140 KHz to 30 MHz. It just isn't being used to its full capabilities. I suspect the FM section has similar tricks that haven't been used. It opens up some interesting possibilities.

The intended target market for this modification is not the DX or consumer crowd, but some dedicated radio fanatics might buy it too. The real "killer app" is for use as a translator receiver. It outperforms some expensive commercial tuners. Unfortunately, the Sony lacks several features that are needed in this niche market.

I've been a big fan of Broadcast Warehouse products. We use a DSP-Extra for our main audio processing at the station, and some of the translators use their processors as well. They have been quite good, and an excellent value. Hopefully, this will fall in line with the innovation that is included in their other products.
 
Chuck, can you find out if that AM chip has a true RF amp or if it's just straight down-conversion to IF?
If not, it's a deal breaker if I still need to build and tune an outboard RF antenna/amp.
While that would work, it's seldom as effective as building such a stage into the radio in first place.
Separate tweaking is so...1920's.
Any idea if the same AM chip can be convinced to have different passband ( in IF or however they're modeling bandwidth )?

Heck, I'll pay $200 for a new tuner that will do that, unless the square-wave detection on AM still sounds like, well you know.
Well, I guess I could wire in a '27 triode and do power detection to get the audio I really want.
 
Tom Wells said:
...Can you find out if that AM chip has a true RF amp or if it's just straight down-conversion to IF?
If not, it's a deal breaker if I still need to build and tune an outboard RF antenna/amp.

Any idea if the same AM chip can be convinced to have different passband ( in IF or however they're modeling bandwidth?

Tom... The Sony XDR-F1HD's AM section appears to have NO RF AMP [neither does the FM] ??? The "balanced" two-wire AM antenna teminals feed an adjustable input transformer - then it's straight-on to the I.F. I tried a very-nice amplified Dymek antenna that was popular in the 1980s, but had to establish "ground" by tying the Dymek's "shield" to an outer sleeve on one of the RCA audio output jacks... "hot" was feed to one of the two antenna terminals on the XDR-F1HD [doesn't matter which one].

The outboard amplified antenna improved reception over that achieved from Sony's included 4x5-inch loop, but the AM sensitivity still was far short of commmendable.

I had the same thoughts regarding the programmability of the I.F. bandpass... then, I asked myself "WHY wouldn't Sony make a better effort than 150hz-2khz - or did they just not care?" The AM analog sound "quality" of this tuner ranks at the lower end of the scale. I have not yet heard it in "HD" mode... CAN'T recieve any AM stations in IBOC [yet].
 
A thought and question... Might the I.F. bandpass on this tuner have to be much wider than usually encountered in an analog AM receiver simply to pass the IBOC saddlebags before entering the “AM chip” for demodulation and digital wonderment? If so, could we assume that the audio bandwidth is actually “modeled” by the AM DSP – and could be set for any determined [or multiple] audio frequency response the designer/programmer prefers?

Assuming a “yes” to the questions posed above, I might have an idea why the XDR-F1HD appears to have been purposely-limited to its 2kHz confines despite greater capabilities [Sangean's HDT-1 nearly mimics the NRSC spec past 7.5k on analog AM]... The answer may be found by simply tuning an AM station utilizing IBOC on an analog AM radio with ANY hint of bandwidth beyond 2.5-3k and you’ll quickly-come to a rational conclusion... HISSSSSSSS in the analog audio courtesy of this stellar “HD” AM “technology”.

Your thoughts?
 
hipporadio said:
A thought and question... Might the I.F. bandpass on this tuner have to be much wider than usually encountered in an analog AM receiver simply to pass the IBOC saddlebags before entering the “AM chip” for demodulation and digital wonderment? If so, could we assume that the audio bandwidth is actually “modeled” by the AM DSP – and could be set for any determined [or multiple] audio frequency response the designer/programmer prefers?

Assuming a “yes” to the questions posed above, I might have an idea why the XDR-F1HD appears to have been purposely-limited to its 2kHz confines despite greater capabilities [Sangean's HDT-1 nearly mimics the NRSC spec past 7.5k on analog AM]... The answer may be found by simply tuning an AM station utilizing IBOC on an analog AM radio with ANY hint of bandwidth beyond 2.5-3k and you’ll quickly-come to a rational conclusion... HISSSSSSSS in the analog audio courtesy of this stellar “HD” AM “technology”.

Your thoughts?

I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

Tom, I'm told that the AM section uses 10.7 MHz for it's IF frequency, the same as for FM. I haven't confirmed that, but it makes sense though. To my knowledge (and Uncle Hippo agrees) there is no pre-amp. I'll bet you could build on though. The #27 triode might look really nice perched on top of the plastic case, which has enough real estate to accommodate a breadboard style tube socket. ;)

I'm reasonably certain that the limited frequency response for AM is intentional. I'd bet lunch that bandwidth could be changed in software.
 
hipporadio said:
A thought and question... Might the I.F. bandpass on this tuner have to be much wider than usually encountered in an analog AM receiver simply to pass the IBOC saddlebags before entering the “AM chip” for demodulation and digital wonderment? If so, could we assume that the audio bandwidth is actually “modeled” by the AM DSP – and could be set for any determined [or multiple] audio frequency response the designer/programmer prefers?

I think you're correct.

And I suppose the man to ask would be Jens Wildhagen, inventor of the FM stereo noise reduction system used in this tuner. It looks he had a lot to do with its overall design, so I did some searching and found this profile (note that he attended Purdue before moving back to Germany):

http://www.xing.com/profile/Jens_Wildhagen2

Another of his patents is for an "AM receiver with adaptive channel filter bandwidth". Sounds intriguing.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1315303.html

Jens, if you're following this thread, please respond!
 
Let me chime in with some "Broadcaster" feedback. I personally tested this unit this afternoon on a translator install. I would rate the RF rejection as Awesome. We are using this unit to receive a local FM station on a site where there is a second adjacent translator BROADCASTING. As in "We're receiving 94.7, when 94.3 has a 100 watt transmitter across THE ROOM". Receiver still gets the signal in full stereo fidelity NO PROBLEM. My boom box monitor gives me 1.5 MHz of noise near this freq. I am TOTALLY blown away. I'd have paid $500-$600 for a confirmed performance like this... EASILY.

It's NOT a miracle. But it's probably the best out there. And for Really cheap.

I also found the AM-HD section to be the best I've seen. I get detection, but not lock on WOAI. 130" miles. Accurian does not detect. No matter.

GREAT FM receiver. And low cost. AM is OK too. I would suggest better than "Pedestrian".

Did you really think I wouldn't pick a fight with Hip? :)

I agree with his review, BTW.

Clouseau
 
10.7 mhz IF for AM....wouldn't there be some chance of 25m shortwave brodcast images showing up in the mixer output at 10.7?
11.7mhz minus input f (nominal 1000 khz) equals 10.7 mhz. The mixer doesn't care whether we hear the sum or difference.
It does make sense to get the wider bandpass needed for the HD sidebands, lower IFs are easier to design for "skirts" that are advantageous to straight analog demodulation. Maybe they have a 25-m rejector in there somewhere...
Or do we hear 25m SW noise along with MW broadcst detection and the loop is assumed to have NO pickup for images?

I think ibquity has a clause for manufacturers to limit analog response to create a biggger "wow" when the HD kicks in.
As if AM analog couldn't easily do 15 khz......

The adaptive bandwidth concept is interesting, but to read that it reduces bw until both sidebands are substantially the same is madness!
What about picking the cleaner sideband and offsetting an optimal amount?
How about bringing back mechnically controlled variable-bandwidth coupling IF stages if you want to do it the right way?
Step-tuning is one of the planks in the coffin the "evildoers" have been building for AM.
And it's totally uncalled for. There's no good reason not to have a VCO controlled by a true slope function voltage without
such great big quantized steps!
OK, soapbox mode off.
I guess if Jens grew up in Germany, his experience with usage of AM radio would be different, and the density of
stations in (AM) might make this model for demodulating useful. Here in the middle of the USA the dial is crammed full,
and half the AMs still have decent high frequency response if you can tune to hear it. There are real advantages to true analog tuning and detection, that seem to defy modern design, manufacture, or something.

What other technologies do we willingly hobble to the point of near-irrelevancy?
I still don't understand why Delco ever accepted the design of the mushbox AM car radios 20 years ago unless it was intended to be slow poison for AM.

The pictures I've seen would seem to indicate the Sony's well designed internal shielding box is an important part of the selectivity, along with such small circuitry that there is very little chance of extraneous coupling. No leads are long enough to pick up anything within
the shielded portion.
 
Tom Wells said:
The pictures I've seen would seem to indicate the Sony's well designed internal shielding box is an important part of the selectivity, along with such small circuitry that there is very little chance of extraneous coupling. No leads are long enough to pick up anything within
the shielded portion.

The shielding is a big deal in this radio. There is a lot of it. I'm sorry that out of the box, it isn't a stellar AM performer, but for us FM guys, this thing is amazing, as Clouseau and I have related. With the BW add-on modification, I think this radio will become the new standard by which FM tuners are measured.
 
I have heard my first AM IBOC, I have WBZ at about 40 miles with a tunable C Crane Twin Coil amplified antenna which I had to judiciously tune and then rotate, it took me about 5 minutes to get it in and it is now dropping in and out. I hooked it up the same way Hippo hooked up his McKay Dymek. The noise floor does drop right away and the frequency response seems better but you can tell it's artificial as the highs sound very shrill, it almost sounds like a speaker system with the tweeter level up way too high. The drop outs are annoying, it is now exhibiting a weird echo effect. If I move the antenna at all it drops right out, it is very hard to find the optimum position and tuning (of the antenna) because the lag to IBOC reception is at least 10 seconds behind. The artificial highs are more pronounced with music during commercials. WTAG 580 will not even pull in the HD dial indicator. I don't think they're anything wrong with this radio, I think there's something wrong with IBOC.
 
Tuning AM iboc signals and finding an antenna placement that will work is about as tedious as hunting for an
active spot on a galena cystal with a cat's whisker, but not as much fun.

The delay means you can go right by the sweet spot 3-4 times before you finally get an angle that will work.
Still no luck getting WMVP 1000 AM to decode in Chicago. I think I'll try the 1924 stand-up loose coupler with the tunable loop tonight,
instead of the teeny broadbanded loop the Accurian came with.

The watery sound of voices in HD AM makes me think Aquarian would have been a better name for this radio.
 
I’m sorry I just can’t see workingwoman with kids going through all this just to hear WBZ news. Nor can will the average radio user. Most users just want to turn the box on and channel surf without all these problems. Our lives are too complicated as is. The geeks will spend all day hacking this junk.
 
Going back to the "Delco AM radio slushboxes" - it wasn't always that way. In the 80's the Delco UX-1 was the standard to measure AM radios. It had a 'wide bandwidth' position that was engaged with the "AMST" button (which also gave you AM stereo where available), plus decent impulse noise rejection AND a 5-band EQ!
Those were great radios and eventually, only the Caddy's had the super-duper bandwidth AM (stereo) radios by the mid-90's.
I'll put my 1991 Delco UX-1 side by side any HD-AM tuner today for a 'road test' on the AM band.
 
Yes the mid-80's Delco AMs were quite good, even though they were no longer analog-tuned.
I was a big fan of the DNR ( Dynamic Noise Reduction) system Delco used.
It removed hiss from FM and tapes very effectively.
 
pocket-radio said:
I’m sorry I just can’t see workingwoman with kids going through all this just to hear WBZ news. Nor can will the average radio user. Most users just want to turn the box on and channel surf without all these problems. Our lives are too complicated as is. The geeks will spend all day hacking this junk.

That's it, the average consumer will never be able to figure out iBlock. (This radio is a POS, it doesn't work)..... (another return)
 
I'm back in my boyhood home to share the holiday with my family. I carted the Sony “HD” tuner and my Meduci “hi-fi” AM tuner with its companion Dymek antenna to my destination in eastern Indiana. The Sony gets FIVE STARS for its RF ability – but DOES NOT lock on “HD” on ANY station in my second-floor bedroom when fed by a C Crane dipole at 50-miles out... I suspect that they have to crank the power and inflict more mayhem on radio reception to make this "invention" work.

Over on AM, Jeff Deck’s Meduci tuner is flawless—delivering AWESOME audio on local oldies-formatted 1580 WIFE... At FIVE WATTS at a few miles as I type this, the only distraction is a bit of good ‘ole-fashion 10khz “superhet” mixing with the wideband zero-distortion audio their BE rig is cranking out. The oldies sound great in glorious NRSC mono ;D

For “poops ‘n giggles”, I tuned to “The Big One”—700 WLW, and was “rewarded” with some of the worst audio I have snared on the AM band. They are “local” here, but sound disgusting – your cell phone would give this AM icon a current-day run for its money. “Interesting” [and edifying] that 250-watt WIFE sounds MUCH BETTER then “The Big One”—WLW on a tuner designed and built for quality audio.
 
WBZ also sounds like it's coming over an old 1925 horn speaker here at 40 miles out analog, and in the heartbreak of HD (when I can get it, only in the daytime) it sounds like regular analog with a horn tweeter that's too loud. Artifacts, dropouts and very artificial cranked highs, sounds like crystal light tastes.
 
'It sounds like Crystal Lite tastes' LOL!!!! My thoughts exactly! The only plan that makes any sense for AM-HD is to move it to channel 5-6. After a number of years they could sign off all of the 12kw or lower stations still on MW and reassign the channels to DRM for the flamethrowers like WLW etc. Everyone would win... Even the left over 5-6 tv stations that would have to be moved to UHF, where they should have moved anyway.
 
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